Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

[ClementofA]

Der Alter, you posted alleged quotes of mine, but left out the links to the original post(s). Whether or not you incorrectly quoted me, or quoted me out of context, has therefore not been confirmed, since - you - removed the links to my quotes. The links would have allowed me to click on them & see the post(s) you are allegedly quoting from. If they exist.

Another out-of-context proof text.

Proof text? Those are your words. Where did i say anything proved anything? Where did i say what it proved?

That a word can mean "correction" does not mean anything unless you can provide textual or lexical evidence that it must mean "correction" in this verse.

That a word can mean "correction" means just that. No more. No less. Who used the word "must"? You, not I. The word "must" is not equivalent to the word "can" that i used. Apples & oranges.

2 Peter 2:9-12
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
(10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
(11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;​

This passage does not say that the unjust, vs. 9, will be "corrected" on the day of judgement. It does in fact say they will be "taken and destroyed...and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"​

2Pe 2:9-12 KJV
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The Greek word for "punished" there can mean corrected. And refer to corrective chastening:

2 Pet.2:9 the Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging (CLV)

What would be the point of God "reserving" the ungodly to be punished if that meant annihilation? Do you think He "reserves" them, as opposed to annihilating them, just so He can sadistically torment them for all eternity? Is Love Omnipotent a sadist? Where are they being "reserved"? In some fiery hell hole? For what purpose?

(10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
(11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Does the theory of universal redemption also apply to animals? Because the wicked shall ultimately be destroyed (even to "utterly perish") as natural brute beasts. I'm not sure how this
could be stated any more strongly.

Will David, who was also as a "beast" (cf. 2 Pet.2:12 above) also be destroyed forever:

Psalm 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before you.

Will Nebuchadnezar, who was also as a "beast" (cf. 2 Pet.2:12 above) also be destroyed forever:

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

A better more literal translation is:

2 Peter 2:12 Now these, as irrational animals, born naturally for capture and corruption, calumniating that in which they are ignorant in their corruption, also shall be corrupted, "
13 being requited with the wages of injustice. (CLV)

The Greek word for "corruption" (v.12) above is the same as used in this salvation of all passage:

Rom.8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

And the Greek word for "corrupted" (2 Pet.2:12 above) is the same that occurs twice in 1 Cor.3:17:

17 If any man defile(corrupts/ruins) the temple of God, him shall God destroy(corrupt/ruin); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Which is in the context of salvation after destruction:

1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of
the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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[ClementofA]

You blow off all my quotes from the ECF with "Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism." without reading or understanding what I posted.
..

Actually i did read what you posted. Who (or what) told you that i didn't?

 

[Der Alte]

Actually i did read what you posted. Who (or what) told you that i didn't?

I notice you ignored the bulk of my post.
Clement [ 30-100] The First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Chap. XI. — Continuation. Lot.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.
Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap VIII
And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.
Justin Chap. LII
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.
Justin Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. IV
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’
Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies. Book V. Chap. XXVII. —
2. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these [good things] is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light.
Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV Chap XXVI
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language:92 thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal.
Tatian’s [a.d. 110-172.] Address to the Greeks. Chap. XIII. — Theory of the Soul’s Immortality.
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal.37 Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it [the soul] knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Clement of Alexandria [a.d. 153-193-217.] Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap X
For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Chap. XLVIII. Part First Apology
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged — the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility.
Tertullian VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chap. XXXIV.
We, however, so understand the soul’s immortality as to believe it “lost,” not in the sense of destruction, but of punishment, that is, in hell.
Commodianus [a.d. 240] The Instructions in Favour of Christian Discipline.
Chap XXIX
By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein - there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Refutation of All Heresies. Chap XXIII
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unqenchable fire.
Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise V. — An Address to Demetrianus.
9. And therefore with reason in these plagues that occur, there are not wanting God’s stripes and scourges; and since they are of no avail in this matter, and do not convert individuals to God by such terror of destructions, there remains after all the eternal dungeon, and the continual fire, and the everlasting punishment; nor shall the groaning of the suppliants be heard there, because here the terror of the angry God was not heard,
24. An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering.
What hath pride profited us, or what good hath the boasting of riches done us? All those things are passed away like a shadow.” (Wisdom of Solomon 5:1-9) The pain of punishment will then be without the fruit of penitence; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late they will believe in eternal punishment who would not believe in eternal life.

 

[Der Alte]

post #121Der Alter, you posted alleged quotes of mine, but left out the links to the original post(s). Whether or not you incorrectly quoted me, or quoted me out of context, has therefore not been confirmed, since - you - removed the links to my quotes. The links would have allowed me to click on them & see the post(s) you are allegedly quoting from. If they exist.

Go to the top and do a search in this thread for the scripture you quoted.

Proof text? Those are your words. Where did i say anything proved anything? Where did i say what it proved?

Proof texting is the method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing.

That a word can mean "correction" means just that. No more. No less. Who used the word "must"? You, not I. The word "must" is not equivalent to the word "can" that i used. Apples & oranges.

Then your post is meaningless just throwing out rubbish to muddy the water.

The Greek word for "punished" there can mean corrected. And refer to corrective chastening:
2 Pet.2:9 the Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging (CLV)

Wrong as usual. The word for "punished" cannot mean "corrected" when vs, 9 is read in the context of the rest of the passage.

2 Peter 2:9-12
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
(10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
(11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;​

What would be the point of God "reserving" the ungodly to be punished if that meant annihilation? Do you think He "reserves" them, as opposed to annihilating them, just so He can sadistically torment them for all eternity? Is Love Omnipotent a sadist? Where are they being "reserved"? In some fiery hell hole? For what purpose?

If you don't like what scripture says quit trying to change it, go argue with God.

Will David, who was also as a "beast" (cf. 2 Pet.2:12 above) also be destroyed forever:
Psalm 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before you.
Will Nebuchadnezar, who was also as a "beast" (cf. 2 Pet.2:12 above) also be destroyed forever:
Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

Irrelevant! Where is it written that every person is punished exactly the same?

A better more literal translation is:
2 Peter 2:12 Now these, as irrational animals, born naturally for capture and corruption, calumniating that in which they are ignorant in their corruption, also shall be corrupted, "
13 being requited with the wages of injustice. (CLV)
The Greek word for "corruption" (v.12) above is the same as used in this salvation of all passage:

Totally irrelevant the contexts are different. Just endlessly repeating over and over and over "better more literal translation" does not make it so.

And the Greek word for "corrupted" (2 Pet.2:12 above) is the same that occurs twice in 1 Cor.3:17:
17 If any man defile(corrupts/ruins) the temple of God, him shall God destroy(corrupt/ruin); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Which is in the context of salvation after destruction:

Wrong. 1 Cor 3:17 there is no logical or grammatical way you can make this vs. be in the context of salvation after destruction.

1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of
the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

"May be saved" NOT "will be saved."

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Rubbish! It is not a distinction between stoning and some different kind of death. The distinction is between "death without mercy" and something worse.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily....

Still practicing that mind reading trick 2000 years after the fact deciding what the writer of Hebrews should have said in this situation and even knowing what the writer of Hebrews believed about God's punishment. This bleeding heart argument ignores vss. 30-31

Hebrews 10:30-31
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

If dying like everyone else is the only thing that happens to everyone who has "trodden under foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace," why didn't the writer of Hebrews say, "Hey don't worry about any punishment everybody is going to be saved no matter what?" Surely he would have known that "Love omnipotent" was going to save everyone no mater how wicked and unrepentant they were.

 

[ClementofA]

Go to the top and do a search in this thread for the scripture you quoted.

So you are purposely removing the links to my comments allegedly quoted in your posts? Why is that? As I said:

Der Alter, you posted alleged quotes of mine, but left out the links to the original post(s). Whether or not you incorrectly quoted me, or quoted me out of context, has therefore not been confirmed, since - you - removed the links to my quotes. The links would have allowed me to click on them & see the post(s) you are allegedly quoting from. If they exist.

 

[ClementofA]

I notice you ignored the bulk of my post.

The same type of lame arguments that have been addressed repeatedly, while dozens if not hundreds of my posts go unanswered. For example:

Clement [ 30-100] The First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Chap. XI. — Continuation. Lot.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.

That quote, even if translated correctly, carries not the slightest hint of endless tortures, or some such pointless, hopeless, sadism for all eternity. As i said, lame.

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[ClementofA]

I posted:

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Der Alter replied:

Rubbish! It is not a distinction between stoning and some different kind of death. The distinction is between "death without mercy" and something worse.

Wrong. I'm not the one who made the comparison between the soreness of punishment of a mere death under Moses' law (usually by stoning) & the soreness of punishment of the rebels against Christ described in the passage. Do you wish to disagree with God's comparison.

Still practicing that mind reading trick 2000 years after the fact deciding what the writer of Hebrews should have said in this situation and even knowing what the writer of Hebrews believed about God's punishment.

I'm not the one who made the comparison between the soreness of punishment of a mere death under Moses' law (usually by stoning) & the soreness of punishment of the rebels against Christ described in the passage. Do you wish to disagree with God's comparison.

This bleeding heart argument ignores vss. 30-31
Hebrews 10:30-31
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Do you have a point with that irrelevant comment?

If dying like everyone else is the only thing that happens to everyone who has "trodden under foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace," why didn't the writer of Hebrews say, "Hey don't worry about any punishment everybody is going to be saved no matter what?" Surely he would have known that "Love omnipotent" was going to save everyone no mater how wicked and unrepentant they were.

Since no one made your imaginary "if" argument, it's irrelevant like a strawman fallacy. Is death by stoning "dying like everyone else"? Is a worse punishment than death by stoning "dying like everyone else"? Neither of which comes anywhere near to the endless, hopeless, pointless sadism for eternity myth.

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[rakovsky]

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC
I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage),
McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

ClementofA,
You brought up a good point about the Apocalypse of Peter. Chapter 14 does appear to have a section teaching the salvation of sinners condemned in Hell after the Last Judgment, with the salvation resulting from the prayers of the righteous (in the case of this document, the prayers are from Peter).

Also, in what is apparently a follow-up section added centuries later in the Ethiopic version, Peter sees the suffering of the sinners who are condemned at the Last Judgment, and prays to Christ for mercy on them, and he weeps many hours. Then Peter gets this reply: "'My Father will give unto them all the life, the glory, and the kingdom that passeth not away,' . . . 'It is because of them that have believed in me that I am come. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.'"

I wonder how much traction the idea of saving the condemned sinners gets in the Oriental Orthodox church today, since the Apocalypse of Peter, Origen's writings, and the Christian Sibyllines are commonly considered to come from Egypt. It was the EO's and RC's 5th Ecumenical Council, which the OOs did not affirm, that rejected Origen's teachings.
The idea reminds me also of the RC idea of Purgatory, in that sinners suffer in it and are then saved from it, except that Purgatory is not considered by the RCs to be the same as Hell.
I wrote more about the Apocalypse of Peter here, in case you are interested:
THE APOCALYPSE OF PETER (1st - mid-2nd century) Questions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If universalism is true, then it's hard to see a point to Christ warnings about hell, Paul's missionary journeys, and the evangelistic efforts of any other Christians.

Where did Paul ever mention "Hell" or "Gehenna" in his Epistles?

Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Where did Paul ever mention "Hell" or "Gehenna" in his Epistles?

Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

No skype either ?!

How'd they communicate ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

HereIStand said: ↑
If universalism is true, then it's hard to see a point to Christ warnings about hell, Paul's missionary journeys, and the evangelistic efforts of any other Christians.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Where did Paul ever mention "Hell" or "Gehenna" in his Epistles?

Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

No skype either ?!
How'd they communicate ?

Typical deflection. Answering a question with a question.........
If you don't know the answer, just say so...........

 

[ClementofA]

If you saw it many times on this forum then you should have known that repentance is still necessary to be saved. Evangelical Universalism does not deny the requirement of belief and repentance; contrary to your incorrect assertion.

Correct!

 

[Saint Steven]

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

Yes, thank you.
Universal Restoration is no invention of these modern times.
It was solidly rooted in the early church. Especially those for whom NT Greek was their common language.