Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

[Deadworm]

I served as an informal advisor for a PhD thesis on universalism in Paul's theology that became the foundation for 2 books on the subject. What the evangelical critics of this thread don't realize is that the many church fathers cited rightly interpreted Paul, Jesus, 1 Peter, and the Book of Revelation on this urgent question. Because of this thread, I hope to start a corollary thread on the biblical case for qualified universalism. Qualified universalism implies the more limited claim that God's love pursues the wicked even after death and gives them a chance to repent and be restored to Him. But they will never be coerced into conversion.

This version of universalism does not undermine the urgency of the Gospel. Why not? Because the wicked must still be separated from God in Hell and must be urged to make the right choices that will allow them to escape temporary awful judgment and thus to find and fulfill their life purpose. Thus, as a younger man, I was actively involved in street evangelism.

So anti-universalists here, are you actually willing to shelve your bias on this subject and actually get into what the Word teaches? Stay tuned for my new thread.

There is a more serious flaw in the evangelical disregard for what the early church fathers taught on this question. Those with a high view of biblical infallibility cite NT claims about biblical inspiration. What they fail to realize is these texts have the inspiration of the OT in mind; the NT cannot comment on its own inspiration. Why not? Because there was no consensus about our NT as a completed canon until around 200 AD at the earliest. We need to depend on the Holy Spirit guiding patristic tradition to make the right book selections for the canon. If the early fathers were not divinely guided on this issue, then we have no grounds for embracing our current biblical canon!

 

[Oldmantook]

Here are some of the last words on the subject of salvation from the last book of the Bible:

"Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.............
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen."

How could the doctrine of universal salvation be true when the Lord Himself makes it a point to tell us (just before signing off for the Church age) that there will be dogs, sorcerers, immoral persons, murderers, idolaters, and liars looking in with no access to the tree of life and the holy city when God makes all things new?

Any supposed "church father" who taught that everyone will be saved eventually was either ignorant of the scriptures or willingly teaching against the clear testimony of the Book of Revelation. The same is true for everyone who teaches universal salvation now.

I hope those teaching universal salvation know what that means.

If not just read the bold print above and repent while there's still time.

Please don't be mad at me for being blunt. As much as I hate to be the bearer of bad news - I'm not the one making the rules.

This is not exactly spiritual rocket surgery. It's all there in black and white.

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1

You premise is incorrect which then follows that your conclusion is incorrect. There are different forms and variation with the universalist camp. Some as you allude to do not believe in a literal lake of fire. Some universalists believe that all roads lead to God. These beliefs are antithetical to Scripture. However, in the history of the church the doctrine of apokatastasis has existed which follows that God will one day reconcile all men to himself. It does not deny that the unsaved end up in the lake of fire however it denies that their destination and stay in the lake of fire is an "eternal" one.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

If you saw it many times on this forum then you should have known that repentance is still necessary to be saved. Evangelical Universalism does not deny the requirement of belief and repentance; contrary to your incorrect assertion.

Call it what you like, but "universal salvation", the idea that in the end everyone will be saved, is what is from the devil himself! Jesus, God Incarnate, DISAGREES with this rank heresy. There is NO possibility of any salvation AFTER death. Period!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

You don't distinguish between the different forms of Universalist belief. I stated the EVANGELICAL form of universalism; the emphasis of course being the need to repent. When referring to this subject, one must define the terms first and foremost.

WHERE in Scripture do you read that the whole human race, from Adam till the last person will be saved? You think you know better than Jesus, Who has said that the MAJORITY will be lost and end up in eternal hell! Modern distortions of the simple Gospel Message abound, and are pushed by the devil, who uses gullible people to promote his LIES!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

You don't distinguish between the different forms of Universalist belief. I stated the EVANGELICAL form of universalism; the emphasis of course being the need to repent. When referring to this subject, one must define the terms first and foremost.

Complete rubbish! there is NO such thing as "evangelical" universalism. If someone has started this, then they have been completed DECEIVED by the devil, because the Holy Bible, the ONLY Authority on ALL matters, does NOT teach this in ANY from!

 

[ClementofA]

Here are some of the last words on the subject of salvation from the last book of the Bible:

"Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.............
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen."

This passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER.

If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you?

If the law locks you up & takes away your freedom to live in a city, it can restore it later.

"So far as things being taken away, etc, that's never the end of the story because the end of the story is the reconciliation of all things. If some might have to forfeit part of their reward, or be punished for something wrong in them, that doesn't mean they will be forever fixed in that state. In Romans, Paul speaks of the natural branches (the Jews) being cut off, and the Gentiles being grafted in, and then he says that God is able to graft back in the natural branches as well. To be cut off is to be lost for a time, but nothing is forever lost to God, because God is the good shepherd who brings back the last lost lamb. We all get anxious from time to time, and some suffer more than others, but remember:

"God is love. He's not playing games with us. He's not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He's trustworthy."

"1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

Question about Revelation 22:19

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[HereIStand]

Any scriptural backing for your view? If so please provide citation.

Sure. See the book Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment by Robert Peterson.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Anyhow, only ONE WAY, JESUS, says all the forms man has devised against the GOSPEL, all the forms of universalism listed online, are pernicious.(deadly and leading to death). This cannot be escaped nor denied nor refuted with all the rhetoric of man, and to try to prove something by twisting Scripture leads to even more dangerous errors, as seen all thru Scripture and all thru history with all the forms of universalism.

Since Scripture, YHWH'S revealed Salvation and Plan and Purpose in JESUS,
is not the basic standard nor authority they believe, nor obey, nor use, it is useless to argue with them.

 

[Oldmantook]

Call it what you like, but "universal salvation", the idea that in the end everyone will be saved, is what is from the devil himself! Jesus, God Incarnate, DISAGREES with this rank heresy. There is NO possibility of any salvation AFTER death. Period!

It's fine to have your opinion but your opinion must be backed by Scripture. You believe what you believe because that is what you were taught and you accepted it without question. If you did study the subject for yourself then simply state the scriptural basis of your objection based upon your study.

 

[Oldmantook]

WHERE in Scripture do you read that the whole human race, from Adam till the last person will be saved? You think you know better than Jesus, Who has said that the MAJORITY will be lost and end up in eternal hell! Modern distortions of the simple Gospel Message abound, and are pushed by the devil, who uses gullible people to promote his LIES!

Don't be lazy; do your own homework. I did my due diligence.

 

[Oldmantook]

Sure. See the book Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment by Robert Peterson.

Care to cite anything from the book you subscribe to?

 

[Phil 1:21]

The endless hell dogma, however, causes millions to leave the church & many millions more to refuse to even consider the claims of Christ, while slandering the character of Love Omnipotent.

1 Peter 2:7-8

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Don't be lazy; do your own homework. I did my due diligence.

I have for over 35 years and never found it. Show the texts here

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you did study the subject for yourself then simply state the scriptural basis of your objection based upon your study.

So far as seen on this and other forums,
people who have already decided based on information that they were told ,
even if contrary to all Scripture,
they still won't change their mind based on Scripture nor anything posted on a forum.

If they would, there is all the refutation available that is needed on the internet.
(for anyone seeking the truth).
Also, just reading the Bible through and through, God willing He grants His understanding...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Phil 1:21, ]1 Peter 2:7-8

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.[/QUOTE
Yes, SCRIPTURE refers to the lost because of unbelief (OR maybe worse - belief coupled with disobedience rebelling against God and His WORD)

 

[HereIStand]

Care to cite anything from the book you subscribe to?

One compelling passage is Peterson's reference to Thomas Aquinas' teaching on Matthew 25:41. Here the condemned are ordered to depart from the presence of God into everlasting fire. Aquinas noted that hell is both the ‘pain of loss’ from God's presence and the ‘pain of sense' of everlasting fire. This refutes both universalism and annihilationism. As the bliss of heaven will never end, the pain of sense will never end in hell. We will always exist in one place or another. Hence, annihilationism is false. Likewise, the peace of gain will be unending in heaven and the pain of loss will be unending in hell. Thus, to teach universalism in any guise is to provide a false hope to those in hell. Heaven is eternal peace, and hell is eternal hopelessness.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You premise is incorrect which then follows that your conclusion is incorrect. .............in the history of the church the doctrine of apokatastasis has existed which follows that God will one day reconcile all men to himself. It does not deny that the unsaved end up in the lake of fire however it denies that their destination and stay in the lake of fire is an "eternal" one.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away.............and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away..................And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new................. the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Rev. 21

Are you saying that, when He creates the new heaven and the new earth, He will wipe away only some of the tears shed by His people at that time? Are you saying that He will wipe them all away from His people "when He gets around to it" - but not all right then?

Are you are saying that there will be some mourning, crying, and pain for His children for quite a while but He will not take it all away until sometime later?

You are saying, in spite of what He clearly says, that He is at that time not making all things new - only some of the things?

You are saying that, in spite of what He says, that there will be death for some of those to be saved eventually (for a time in the lake of fire) and then He will do away with it in the future?

No - I don't believe that the biblical picture for any of God's people includes a "purgatory" such as you describe.

Are you Roman Catholic?

this passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER. If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you? If the law locks you up & takes away your freedom to live in a city, it can restore it later.

The passage clearly says that He will, at that time, make "all things new" - not just some of them.

If I have all of my privileges restored at a certain point in time - there are none left to restore at a later time.

"God is love. He's not playing games with us. He's not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He's trustworthy."

I agree.

He is not telling us that He will make all things new when He creates the new heaven and the new earth only to make some of them new at a later time.

"1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

I have and so should every believer.

I have no anxiety over God committing some of His eventually forgiven people to a lake of fire for a period of time before they are finally saved.

Humanity is predestined to salvation from before the foundation of the world or they are predestined to punishment in a lake of fire for their sins.

None are predestined for both. Some hope that would be.

This sort of thing reminds me very much of the doctrine of purgatory believed by the Roman cult.

I.e. eternal bliss for many of God's elect only after a few thousand years or more of burning pain and torment.

 

[ClementofA]

You are saying, in spite of what He clearly says, that He is at that time not making all things new - only some of the things?

Making all new implies an on-going process, not a completed one. Rev.5:13 tells us of the completed result.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

You are saying that, in spite of what He says, that there will be death for some of those to be saved eventually (for a time in the lake of fire) and then He will do away with it in the future?

The LOF is second death, but there is no endless death anywhere in the Scriptures. Instead there is the abolition of death & God becoming all in all, even all those who were in Adam (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19).

The passage clearly says that He will, at that time, make "all things new" - not just some of them.

The version you quoted said "making" not make. Is all made new while nations still need "healing" by the leaves of the tree of life (Rev.22:2)?

Humanity is predestined to salvation from before the foundation of the world or they are predestined to punishment in a lake of fire for their sins.

Some will go to the lake of fire. All will eventually be reconciled to the Lamb (Col.1:20) Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29).

I.e. eternal bliss for many of God's elect only after a few thousand years or more of burning pain and torment.

Jesus said some will receive few stripes & others many stripes.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

 

[Der Alte]

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."...

Still quoting Ramelli's false opinion. "immo quam plurimi" does not mean "the vast majority" it means "indeed how many." All the rest is unsupported opinion.
“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.
Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)
Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35
From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)
From Felix Minucius (226AD)
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)
From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)
Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)
From Lactantius (307AD)
But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)
From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

 

[Marvin Knox]

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Just payback is what Jesus received on behalf of the elect.

The elect of God do not receive "payback" except in the sense that they were crucified with Christ.

Jesus received all the punishment we had coming for our sins - the just for the unjust.

No one is saved by either their works or by paying the punishment due their sins themselves.