Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

ClementofA

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“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.

That's another example of deceptive translation as pointed out in the following:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46


Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

-----------------------------------------------


According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

“I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism


-----------------------


Barnabas (A.D. 70)
"The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment."

From the articles i read, scholars place the time of writing of the Epistle of Barnabas at various dates between 70 AD & 135 AD.

The Greek word for "eternal" is αἰωνίου which is transliterated as eonian. With that understanding i see no reason to think the quote proves the author believed in endless punishment. He may have been a universalist.

Many articles consider the Epistle of Barnabas to be of the Alexandrian school of Scriptural interpretation. Notable Church Fathers Clement & Origen of Alexandria were universalists. They quote from the epistle & regard it highly. OTOH the epistle is not known in ancient writings of other areas till significantly later than those two. All of this lends weight against the epistle supporting endless punishment.

"There are then three doctrines of the Lord: The hope of life is the beginning and end of our faith. Righteousness is the beginning and end of judgment. Love of joy and of gladness is the testimony of the works of righteousness." (1:6)

"Behold this is the fast which I chose," saith the Lord, "loose every bond of wickedness, set loose the fastenings of harsh agreements, send away the bruised in forgiveness, and tear up every unjust contract, give to the hungry thy bread, and if thou seest a naked man clothe him..." (3:3)

That quote of the OP link is from chapter 20 verse 1 of the Epistle of Barnabas. The following site gives four English translations:

1 But the way of the Black One is crooked and full of a curse. For it is a way of eternal death with punishment wherein are the things that destroy men's souls--idolatry, boldness, exhalation of power,...(J.B. Lightfoot)

1 But the path of darkness is crooked and full of cursing, for it is the path of eternal death and punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul. Idolatry, boldness, the pride of power,...(Charles Hoole)

1 But the way of darkness is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power,...(Kirsopp Lake)

1 But the Way of the Black One is crooked and full of cursing, for it is the way of death eternal with punishment, and in it are the things that destroy their soul: idolatry, frowardness, arrogance of power,...(Roberts-Donaldson)

Epistle of Barnabas

This following site gives some footnotes:

But the way of darkness 1713 is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal 1714 death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, [etc]

1713 Literally, “of the Black One.”
1714 Cod. Sin. joins “eternal” with way, instead of death.

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol I: BARNABAS: Chapter XX.—The way of darkness.

Here are two different Greek texts from 3 websites:

1. Ἧ δὲ τοῦ μέλαος ὁδός ἐστιν σκολιὰ καὶ κατάρας μεστή. ὁδὸς ἐστιν θανάτου αἰωνίου μετὰ τιμωρίας, ἐν ᾗ ἐστιν τὰ ἀπολλύντα τὴ ψυχὴν αὐτῶν· εἰδωλολατρεία, θρασύτης, ὕψος δυνάμεως, ὑπόκρισις, διπλοκαρδία, μοιχεία, φόνος, ἁρπαγή, ὑπερηφανία, μαγεία, πλεονεξία, ἀφοβία θεοῦ·

The Twelve Apostles-Barnabas_b

1.Η δε του μελανος οδος εστιν σκολια και καταρας μεστη. οδος γαρ εστιν θανατου αιωνιου μετα τιμωριας, εν η εστιν τα απολλυντα την ψυχην αυτων· ειδωλολατρεια, θρασυτης, υψος δυναμεως, υποκρισις, διπλοκαρδια, μοιχεια, φονος, αρπαγη, υπερηφανια, παραβασις, δολος, κακια, αυθαδεια, φαρμακεια, μαγεια, πλεονεξια, αφοβια θεου·

The epistle of Barnabas.

1. Ἧ δὲ τοῦ μέλαος ὁδός ἐστιν σκολιὰ καὶ κατάρας μεστή. ὁδὸς ἐστιν θανάτου αἰωνίου μετὰ τιμωρίας, ἐν ᾗ ἐστιν τὰ ἀπολλύντα τὴ ψυχὴν αὐτῶν· εἰδωλολατρεία, θρασύτης, ὕψος δυνάμεως, ὑπόκρισις, διπλοκαρδία, μοιχεία, φόνος, ἁρπαγή, ὑπερηφανία, μαγεία, πλεονεξία, ἀφοβία θεοῦ·

Barnabbas - Greek

The words "θανάτου αἰωνίου μετὰ τιμωρίας" seem to translate as "death eonian with punishment".

The Greek word for "punishment" is timoria.

"Aristotle, which distinguishes κόλασις from τιμωρία as that which (is disciplinary and) has reference to him who suffers, while the latter (is penal and) has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts, may be found in his rhet. 1, 10, 17; cf. Cope, Introduction to Aristotle, Rhet., p. 232. To much the same effect, Plato, Protag. 324 a. and following, also deff. 416." Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

In the case of "the satisfaction of him who inflicts", with men their "satisfaction" in punishing others is often sadistic & selfish. OTOH for the God Who - is - love - what satisfies Him? Humbled, corrected, saved and transformed beings that He created.

The Greek word - timoria - translated "punishment" is also used in Hebrews 10:28-29:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Thoughts On This?
 
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ClementofA

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Der Alte

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ClementofA

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Just payback is what Jesus received on behalf of the elect.

The elect of God do not receive "payback" except in the sense that they were crucified with Christ.

Jesus received all the punishment we had coming for our sins - the just for the unjust.

No one is saved by either their works or by paying the punishment due their sins themselves.

Yet Scripture speaks of payback or recompense:

2 Thess.1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

People suffer the Lord's chastening for their sinfullness:

Heb.12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Job 13:15a Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him

Consider also:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail.
I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Yet Scripture speaks of payback or recompense:

2 Thess.1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

People suffer the Lord's chastening for their sinfullness:

Heb.12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Job 13:15a Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him

Consider also:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail.
I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
I've said before that I hope you are right and that everyone will be saved in the end. Nothing could make me happier.

I just think you are stretching things beyond what is obviously written to make it appear to be so.

Universal salvation is not the obvious meaning of the scripture witness IMO and in the opinion of the vast majority of systematic theologians.

One of two things will be in store for you on the other side of this life as I see things.

You will either suffer loss for teaching what is not the obvious truth of the scriptures - or you will have your hand shook by me, on the day I meet you face to face, acknowledging that you are were a superior theologian to the vast majority of us.

I sincerely hope it will be the later. But I don't think so.

I've tried to leave things at that in the past. But you keep addressing posts to me.

I wish you well on the day of judgment.

But, for now, I really don't want to be a vehicle any longer for you to foment your teachings.:wave:
 
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ClementofA

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I've said before that I hope you are right and that everyone will be saved in the end. Nothing could make me happier.

I just think you are stretching things beyond what is obviously written to make it appear to be so.

Universal salvation is not the obvious meaning of the scripture witness IMO and in the opinion of the vast majority of systematic theologians.

One of two things will be in store for you on the other side of this life as I see things.

You will either suffer loss for teaching what is not the obvious truth of the scriptures - or you will have your hand shook by me, on the day I meet you face to face, acknowledging that you are were a superior theologian to the vast majority of us.

I sincerely hope it will be the later. But I don't think so.

I've tried to leave things at that in the past. But you keep addressing posts to me.

I wish you well on the day of judgment.

But, for now, I really don't want to be a vehicle any longer for you to foment your teachings.:wave:

Thank you for your friendly response. Be well & blessed.

I would just add these passages of Scripture that occurred to me, in retrospect, re our discussion minutes ago:

1 Corinthians 5:4-5

1 Timothy 1:20
 
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Oldmantook

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"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away.............and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away..................And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new................. the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Rev. 21

Are you saying that, when He creates the new heaven and the new earth, He will wipe away only some of the tears shed by His people at that time? Are you saying that He will wipe them all away from His people "when He gets around to it" - but not all right then?

Are you are saying that there will be some mourning, crying, and pain for His children for quite a while but He will not take it all away until sometime later?

You are saying, in spite of what He clearly says, that He is at that time not making all things new - only some of the things?

You are saying that, in spite of what He says, that there will be death for some of those to be saved eventually (for a time in the lake of fire) and then He will do away with it in the future?

No - I don't believe that the biblical picture for any of God's people includes a "purgatory" such as you describe.

Are you Roman Catholic?
All the saved have their tears wiped away do they not? The unsaved in the lake of fire obviously do not have their tears wiped away. Is that not obvious from the passage? I suggest you study the doctrine of apokatastasis before you jump to any unwarranted conclusions. Then we can have an informed discussion as it appears you are confused based on your questions. And no, I'm not Roman Catholic. I graduated with honors from a conservative evangelical seminary a long time ago and have come to my view based on my own study and research. Perhaps you ought to do the same.
 
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Marvin Knox

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All the saved have their tears wiped away do they not? The unsaved in the lake of fire obviously do not have their tears wiped away. Is that not obvious from the passage?
Yes it is obvious from the passage that all of the elect have their tears wiped away when God makes all things new.

It is also obvious from the doctrine of apokatastasis that all persons are to be numbered among the elect (if the doctrine is correct).

Those in the lake of fire do not yet have their tears wiped away when God makes all things new.
I suggest you study the doctrine of apokatastasis before you jump to any unwarranted conclusions.
I have studied it. I haven't studied, cut, and pasted all that I can find on the internet as Clement has. But I am familiar with it.

I have jumped to no unwarranted conclusions about the doctrine.
Then we can have an informed discussion as it appears you are confused based on your questions.
I am not confused - just making theological observations concerning the implications of the doctrine which you and Clement appear to have missed (or choose to ignore).
And no, I'm not Roman Catholic. I graduated with honors from a conservative evangelical seminary a long time ago ....
Then you should not subscribe to any form of remedial purgatory - which is an integral part of the doctrine of apokatastasis - as opposed to the, also erroneous, doctrine of annihilationism and the correct doctrine which says that all of the sins of the elect were born by Christ and not themselves.
Perhaps you ought to do the same.
I have done the same and come to different conclusions than you have - just as I have on the doctrine of the eternal security of believers.
 
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Der Alte

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Thank you for your friendly response. Be well & blessed.
I would just add these passages of Scripture that occurred to me, in retrospect, re our discussion minutes ago:
1 Corinthians 5:4-5
1 Timothy 1:20
Your two proof texts do not say what you think they do
1Co 5:5
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved [σώζω/sozo] in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Ti 1:20
(20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn [παιδεύω/paideuo] not to blaspheme.
The Greek word sozo translated "may be saved" and the Greek word paideuo translated "may learn" are in the subjunctive mood which "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,"
 
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Oldmantook

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It is also obvious from the doctrine of apokatastasis that all persons are to be numbered among the elect (if the doctrine is correct).

Those in the lake of fire do not yet have their tears wiped away when God makes all things new.
You are exactly right. Thank you for summarizing my view. Please familiarize yourself with the Greek.
And the one seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making (poiō | ποιῶ | pres act ind 1 sg) all things new.” And he said, “Write it down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” The Greek word for "make" is poiō which is a present tense verb thus rendered as "making." God is therefore still in the process of making all things new - not yet a completed act. Therefore for you to claim that those in the lake of fire are not yet among the elect is true because God has not yet finished dealing with them. He has not yet made all things new. As you should know, according to apokatastasis, those in the like of fire spend time there being chastised/refined before bowing their knee as God is still in the process of making all things new. In my past discussions with you, you have the habit of ignoring the verb tenses.

I have jumped to no unwarranted conclusions about the doctrine.
See above.

I am not confused - just making theological observations concerning the implications of the doctrine which you and Clement appear to have missed (or choose to ignore).
See above - study your verb tenses.

Then you should not subscribe to any form of remedial purgatory - which is an integral part of the doctrine of apokatastasis - as opposed to the, also erroneous, doctrine of annihilationism and the correct doctrine which says that all of the sins of the elect were born by Christ and not themselves.
No, that means I study for myself and form my own conclusions and views instead of blindly accepting what I was taught. The Bereans did the same.

I have done the same and come to different conclusions than you have - just as I have on the doctrine of the eternal security of believers.
Good; that is certainly your prerogative.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Therefore for you to claim that those in the lake of fire are not yet among the elect is true because God has not yet finished dealing with them.
To the contrary. I make no such claim. I do not make the claim that those in the lake of fire would not be among the elect. If universalism were true, they would be numbered among the elect according to their predestined eternal status even while they are in the lake of fire - just as I was while still in my sins.

You are obviously unfamiliar with when saved people are elected (or predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son) according to the scriptures. It is not when they are justified through faith and it is most certainly not when they are actually pure enough to be allowed into the eternal presence of God - having burned away all of their sins in purgatory.

Purity is achieved eventually by the grace filed work of God because of our being among the elect. It is not the means of election itself. I thought you graduated from a conservative seminary with honors.:)
I study for myself and form my own conclusions and views instead of blindly accepting what I was taught. The Bereans did the same.
Then you should know that purgatory is the same concept taught in apokatastasis and you should reject both after studying their implications concerning salvation by grace through faith in Christ's work alone.

You can use all the fancy words you want to (such as apokatastasis) and it is still purgatory.

You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.
Good; that is certainly your prerogative.
After my study of the scriptures - I do not believe that any man will be brought into the eternal presence of God because his sins have been cleansed by the fires of purgatory.

Call me old fashioned. But I believe that any sinner who is allowed into the eternal presence of God will do so based on their sins having been paid for by Jesus Christ.

You guys believe what you want to about that. It is certainly your prerogative.
 
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Oldmantook

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To the contrary. I make no such claim. I do not make the claim that those in the lake of fire would not be among the elect. If universalism were true, they would be numbered among the elect according to their predestined eternal status even while they are in the lake of fire - just as I was while still in my sins.
I'm very familiar with the term elect as my professors were all of Reformed persuasion. It's the term you employed so I simply referred to your use of the term. God chooses whom he will elect (and whom he will not elect) according to misinformed Calvinists. My claim is that God saves all even those through the lake of fire. You simply ignored my counter argument to your citation of Rev 21:5 by pointing out your error in noting the verb tense.

You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.
Red herring fallacy.

You guys believe what you want to about that. It is certainly your prerogative.
Indeed it is; that much we agree on.
 
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ClementofA

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Your two proof texts do not say what you think they do
1Co 5:5
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved [σώζω/sozo] in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Ti 1:20
(20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn [παιδεύω/paideuo] not to blaspheme.
The Greek word sozo translated "may be saved" and the Greek word paideuo translated "may learn" are in the subjunctive mood which "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,"

How would you know what i think those verses say when my post made no comment on them? Your response is therefore a strawman.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?
 
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ClementofA

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...not when they are actually pure enough to be allowed into the eternal presence of God - having burned away all of their sins in purgatory.


...Then you should know that purgatory is the same concept taught in apokatastasis and you should reject both after studying their implications concerning salvation by grace through faith in Christ's work alone.

...After my study of the scriptures - I do not believe that any man will be brought into the eternal presence of God because his sins have been cleansed by the fires of purgatory.

Call me old fashioned. But I believe that any sinner who is allowed into the eternal presence of God will do so based on their sins having been paid for by Jesus Christ.

According to Scripture men are reconciled to God by the blood of Christ (Col.1:20). That is how they are reconciled, not by a mythical concept like "purgatory".

A place, e.g. purgatory, can never take away the sin of the world. It is the Lamb of God Who does that (John 1:29)

According to Scripture sin will be done away with through His sacrifice, not by a purgatory:

Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once upon the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (Heb.9:26)

According to Scripture this is how salvation occurs, not by a purgatory:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom.10:9)

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil.2:9-11, NASB)

Redemption is not by a purgatory, but the blood of His Son:

1 Pet.1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

It is not a purgatory that cleanses sins, but the blood of Jesus:

1Jn.1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 Jn.2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

It is not a purgatory that purges men, but the blood of Christ:

Heb.9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Scripture also speaks of washing & salvation in these terms, by the Spirit:

Titus3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6 This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, Who is Spirit & a consuming fire:

Heb.12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So the Scriptures do not reveal purging of sins & salvation come by a mythical place called "purgatory", but rather by God through the Holy Spirit of grace, Jesus Christ & His sacrifice.

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism
 
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Der Alte

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How would you know what i think those verses say when my post made no comment on them? Your response is therefore a strawman.
Here are your two proof texts. Explain to me what you think they say and show how I was in error?
1 Corinthians 5:5
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved [σώζω
/sozo] in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Timothy 1:20
(20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn [παιδεύω/paideuo] not to blaspheme.
 
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ClementofA

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Here are your two proof texts. Explain to me what you think they say and show how I was in error?
1 Corinthians 5:5
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved [σώζω
/sozo] in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Timothy 1:20
(20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn [παιδεύω/paideuo] not to blaspheme.

I have no comment on them. As i said:

How would you know what i think those verses say when my post made no comment on them? Your response is therefore a strawman.
 
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Der Alte

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I have no comment on them. As i said:
How would you know what i think those verses say when my post made no comment on them? Your response is therefore a strawman.
Wrong as usual. Here are the two proof texts you posted. You posted them for some reason
1 Corinthians 5:5
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved [σώζω/sozo] in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:20
(20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn [παιδεύω/paideuo] not to blaspheme.
Virtually every post you make promotes universalism in some way. If your assumption was not that these two verses promote universalism then the only other option is what I said. 1 Tim 1:20 says two people were delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. And 1 Cor 5:5 says that such a person is delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Neither verse says that the stated action will definitely happen.
 
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ClementofA

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Wrong as usual. Here are the two proof texts you posted.


I didn't call them proof texts. In fact i didn't comment on them at all. As i said:

How would you know what i think those verses say when my post made no comment on them? Your response is therefore a strawman.

Virtually every post you make promotes universalism in some way. If your assumption was not that these two verses promote universalism then the only other option is what I said.


How would you know what i think those verses say when my post made no comment on them? Your response is therefore a strawman.


1 Tim 1:20 says two people were delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. And 1 Cor 5:5 says that such a person is delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Neither verse says that the stated action will definitely happen.


I have never - ever - denied that. Therefore your post is a strawman & not pertinent. But feel free to continue living in your dream world.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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ClementofA

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. . .
. . . The same old meaningless copy paste which does not specifically address anything I posted, deleted . . .

It addressed one of your mistranslated quotes.

And why did you misquote me, making it appear i said something i didn't, but which you were saying? I fixed that above.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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