Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[GenemZ]

If you prefer pacifism, that's great and I support that. In fact I prefer it... but you can't force your convictions on others. Is there a bible verse that says we can use lethal force? Yes... therefore, God has spoken on the matter and the case is closed.

Pacifism is what got millions of Jews slaughtered in Nazi Germany when they only had a few German guards herding them into the camps.

And, note. Hitler had the right to bear arms Jews taken away before he would initiate the "final solution."

 

[tulc]

Tulc.... If the police came to the door with an arrest warrant for your cousin who had been living at your house?.... and you, having a gun permit (legal) decided to take a shot at the arresting officer? Would not Jesus rebuke you, too?

...pretty sure He would, yes.

Likewise.... Jesus warned Peter... "they who take up the sword, will die by the sword", was in reference to Peter acting like a professional criminal. It had nothing to do with arming oneself.

Or, He was saying His followers were going to be different from other the people of the World and weren't there to fight others but to show them they can be different?

Did you not read? Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of his sword. Instead, he told Peter to put it back in its holder.

could you point out where He said to take it back out of the sheath?

Jesus got Peter off from being arrested for a criminal act by healing the guard's ear miraculously.

Or: Jesus saw a man bleeding from where his ear used to be and He healed him because that was the loving thing to do?
tulc(tends to think it was compassion for the man, not an attempt to get Peter out of trouble)

 

[GenemZ]

...pretty sure He would, yes.


Or, He was saying His followers were going to be different from other the people of the World and weren't there to fight others but to show them they can be different?

You are oblivious to how men lived back then. Criminals "lived by the sword." They did not have guns.

could you point out where He said to take it back out of the sheath?

He was told to keep it. Not throw it away. You want to play naive with me?

Or: Jesus saw a man bleeding from where his ear used to be and He healed him because that was the loving thing to do?
tulc(tends to think it was compassion for the man, not an attempt to get Peter out of trouble)

See it as you want to.

Jesus kept Peter out of prison. What Peter did was a capital offense. He would have been harshly treated by Roman soldiers (police) and locked up as a criminal. Rome did not tolerate such acts by their subjects.

Why did you think Jesus said that Peter could "die by the sword?" Rome would have executed him if Jesus did not intervene with the miracle.

Shooting an officer will get you locked up today. But, Peter did it so Jesus could show how compassionate he was?

 

[GenemZ]

Too much reality for some here.

 

[tulc]

You are oblivious to how men lived back then. Criminals "lived by the sword." They did not have guns.

uhmmm...yeah I knew that they didn't have guns around then, but thanks for making sure I was aware of that.

He was told to keep it. Not throw it away.

So...you can't point to a Scripture where He told His disciples to use their sword on other people? Ok.

You want to play naive with me?

Not really. You want to assume I am, that's up to you, I'm not responsible for how you "think" I'm responding, I'm only posting what I think.

See it as you want to.

Thank you, I was going to but it's nice when people give you permission to do what you were going to do any way.

Jesus kept Peter out of prison. What Peter did was a capital offense. He would have been harshly treated by Roman soldiers (police) and locked up as a criminal. Rome did not tolerate such acts by their subjects.

Why did you think Jesus said that Peter could "die by the sword?" Rome would have executed him if Jesus did not intervene with the miracle.

Shooting an officer will get you locked up today. But, Peter did it so Jesus could show how compassionate he was?

I didn't say Peter cut the ear off so Jesus could do the the compassionate act, I said the guy had his ear hacked off and Jesus' healed him because He had compassion for him.
tulc(tends to assume Jesus compassion underlies most of the things He did/does)

 

[Ken Rank]

Pacifism is what got millions of Jews slaughtered in Nazi Germany when they only had a few German guards herding them into the camps.

And, note. Hitler had the right to bear arms Jews taken away before he would initiate the "final solution."

Indeed... which is why, if you go back to my previous posts, you'll notice that while I prefer pacifism (What right minded individual wouldn't?) we know that being in a world that doesn't share that value, we have to be ready to defend ourselves. And, God did give provision, in the book of Exodus, for us to be able to use deadly force as a defense in certain situations.

 

[Buzz_B]

Indeed... which is why, if you go back to my previous posts, you'll notice that while I prefer pacifism (What right minded individual wouldn't?) we know that being in a world that doesn't share that value, we have to be ready to defend ourselves. And, God did give provision, in the book of Exodus, for us to be able to use deadly force as a defense in certain situations.

However, wouldn't you agree that back there in Exodus the theme was defense against an enemy seeking to overthrow God's holy nation by means of either military force or spiritual corruption? Isn't there a sort of difference in that he had made a Covenant with Israel to be a holy nation of kings and priests to him?

 

[Ken Rank]

However, wouldn't you agree that back there in Exodus the theme was defense against an enemy seeking to overthrow God's holy nation by means of either military force or spiritual corruption? Isn't there a sort of difference in that he had made a Covenant with Israel to be a holy nation of kings and priests to him?

The commandment was given while Israel was in the wilderness... so that 'threat' didn't exist at that point. Also, I see the Torah (Law, instructions) as not having an end, everlasting.

 

[GenemZ]

The commandment was given while Israel was in the wilderness... so that 'threat' didn't exist at that point. Also, I see the Torah (Law, instructions) as not having an end, everlasting.

The concept of instructions is never ending. We will no longer need to know about what the Laws of Moses contained in eternity. Except about the atonement, perhaps. But? Even sin will become a foreign concept in eternity.

 

[Ken Rank]

The concept of instructions is never ending. We will no longer need to know about what the Laws of Moses contained in eternity. Except about the atonement, perhaps. But? Even sin will become a foreign concept in eternity.

I think it becomes a foreign concept because the law itself will have been fully written on the mind and heart. That hasn't happened yet, what we have now is an earnest (deposit/down payment) toward that time (see 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5). I believe, and this is just personal opinion so feel free to reject this... that the writing on "the mind and heart" is more idiomatic in the sense that the mind the heart are the seats of emotion and logic and that what will really happen is that the instructions will be coded in our DNA as part of the perfection process. When done, we won't sin because we can't... it will be ingrained in us not to.

 

[GenemZ]

Indeed... which is why, if you go back to my previous posts, you'll notice that while I prefer pacifism (What right minded individual wouldn't?)

I do not know why you have been sold on this notion of pacifism is a virtue. Name one hero in the Bible that was a pacifist? Jesus was not. He knew he had to go to the Cross to redeem mankind and was very aggressive against evil. Pacifism is not limited the the physical realm alone.

"The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.
On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up
against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought
to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish
every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." 2 Cor 10:4-6​

Pacifism would say... all beliefs are equal. All opinions are equally good for the one having them. Christianity to to be aggressive against lies and evil. The physical aggression aspect is only the fruit of the thinking if its required to keep evil from gaining control. Its why we have capital punishment.

Some pacifists would love to see the Lord and Satan shake hands and make up. They are stupid and dangerous when they get that way. They will get many hurt if listened to. Their arguments are to be utterly destroyed by those who study the Word of God.

"On the contrary, they (weapons) have divine power to demolish
strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that
sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive
every thought to make it obedient to Christ."​

That is not pacifism. Pacifism is a mental attitude. Its not about overt aggression. When evil becomes physically aggressive... the spiritual believer who is mature in Christ will not fear facing death in the face and destroying it if God wants it to be done. Kill the enemy of your family and nation. Kill.. Not coddle as a pacifist will. Our enemies call them "useful idiots" and try to make their appeals to them. The Bible contains examples of how evil enemies attempted to reach out to the pacifist in Israel as a means to cause the brave to stumble. Its an old strategy. Jesus warned that we will always have the poor with us. There will always be pacifists giving poor excuses for their lack of inner strength from their neglect of submitting to God's Word IN ITS FULLNESS.. They will always cherry pick passages for justifying their cowardliness.

 

[Ken Rank]

I do not know why you have been sold on this notion of pacifism is a virtue. Name one hero in the Bible that was a pacifist? Jesus was not. He knew he had to go to the Cross to redeem mankind and was very aggressive against evil. Pacifism is not limited the the physical realm alone.

"The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.
On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up
against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought
to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish
every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." 2 Cor 10:4-6​

Pacifism would say... all beliefs are equal. All opinions are equally good for the one having them. Christianity to to be aggressive against lies and evil. The physical aggression aspect is only the fruit of the thinking if its required to keep evil from gaining control. Its why we have capital punishment.

Some pacifists would love to see the Lord and Satan shake hands and make up. They are stupid and dangerous when they get that way. They will get many hurt if listened to. Their arguments are to be utterly destroyed by those who study the Word of God.

"On the contrary, they (weapons) have divine power to demolish
strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that
sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive
every thought to make it obedient to Christ."​

That is not pacifism. Pacifism is a mental attitude. Its not about overt aggression. When evil becomes physically aggressive... the spiritual believer who is mature in Christ will not fear facing death in the face and destroying it if God wants it to be done. Kill the enemy of your family and nation. Kill.. Not coddle as a pacifist will. Our enemies call them "useful idiots" and try to make their appeals to them. The Bible contains examples of how evil enemies attempted to reach out to the pacifist in Israel as a means to cause the brave to stumble. Its an old strategy. Jesus warned that we will always have the poor with us. There will always be pacifists giving poor excuses for their lack of inner strength from their neglect of submitting to God's Word IN ITS FULLNESS.. They will always cherry pick passages for justifying their cowardliness.

I don't love war, I don't love strife, I don't love killing, I have no desire to bring hurt or harm to anyone. But I live in a world where others do not share these values and thus my family and myself are well armed and know how to use what we have. As for your position... take whatever position on this you want. I prefer pacifism and knowing that a time is coming where there will be no war and no death and no disease... I tend to think God probably shares this view. But if you don't, that's fine... that's between you and God, not you and I.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[GenemZ]

I think it becomes a foreign concept because the law itself will have been fully written on the mind and heart. That hasn't happened yet, what we have now is an earnest (deposit/down payment) toward that time (see 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5). I believe, and this is just personal opinion so feel free to reject this... that the writing on "the mind and heart" is more idiomatic in the sense that the mind the heart are the seats of emotion and logic and that what will really happen is that the instructions will be coded in our DNA as part of the perfection process. When done, we won't sin because we can't... it will be ingrained in us not to.

I said the concept... "of instruction" will never end. In eternity we will be forever learning.

 

[GenemZ]

I don't love war, I don't love strife, I don't love killing, I have no desire to bring hurt or harm to anyone. But I live in a world where others do not share these values and thus my family and myself are well armed and know how to use what we have. As for your position... take whatever position on this you want. I prefer pacifism and knowing that a time is coming where there will be no war and no death and no disease... I tend to think God probably shares this view. But if you don't, that's fine... that's between you and God, not you and I.

Blessings.
Ken

Ken you are jumping all over the place in your time travel machine. Now is now. Then is then. Where does the Lord have us to be now?

Who says you have to love war?

Reality demands that we accept it. God demands that we accept ALL of His Word so we can face it with His courage by grace and truth. During a battle what a man has to think with makes him.

The Bible has been studied in war colleges for strategy and tactics. Its contents are for everything pertaining to life.

When Jesus spoke of "turning the other cheek" he was giving instruction on how his people were to behave after having lost their national freedom. Lost, because of their neglect of living by sound Bible teaching. Israel was under national discipline by God. Their Torah taught about what they had come under, but not what to do after being invaded and overcome.

Jesus came as a rabbi providing sound Bible teaching to counter the false teachings they were getting to corrupted Pharisees. He was to the Pharisees what Martin Luther had been to the Vatican. And, the RCC, too, tried to murder Martin Luther for bringing the people back to the Bible.

Jesus ended on the Cross. God saw fit to have Martin Luther escape being "crucified" by the RCC. To this day many in the RCC despise Martin Luther, but are careful to not say it openly, since the the overwhelming success Reformation has pushed the self righteous RCC into the background.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken you are jumping all over the time travel machine. Now is now. Then is then. Where does the Lord have us to be now?

Who says you have to love war? Reality demands that we accept it. God demands that we accept ALL of His Word so we can face it with His courage by grace and truth. During a battle what a man has to think with makes him. The Bible has been studied in war colleges for strategy and tactics. Its for everything pertaining to life. When Jesus spoke of "turning the other cheek" he was instruction how his people were to behave after having lost their national freedom because of their neglect of sound sound Bible teaching. Jesus came as a rabbi providing sound Bible teaching to the Jews. He was the the Pharisees, as Martin Luther had been to the Vatican. And, they too, tried to murder Martin Luther for bringing the people back to the Bible. Jesus ended on the Cross. God saw fit to have Martin Luther escape being "crucified" by the RCC. To this day many in the RCC despise Martin Luther, but are careful to not say it openly, since the Reformation has pushed the self righteous RCC into the background.

Your reality... and this is a waste of time. I was the first to come on this thread and post real hard Scriptural evidence that we can use deadly force without it being sin. I was somewhat jumped on by the "NT ONLY" crowd who seem to think God had a character change between Malachi and Mathew. Now, and despite that, I am being interrogated from the other side, by a person who believes exactly as I do. Do you SEEK war? Do you SEEK to kill? No... neither do I... we both prefer peace. But we also BOTH acknowledge that there are times in the world TODAY when deadly force might be used and justifiably so. And yet you want to continue down this road of conversation with me, why?

 

[GenemZ]

Your reality... and this is a waste of time. I was the first to come on this thread and post real hard Scriptural evidence that we can use deadly force without it being sin. I was somewhat jumped on by the "NT ONLY" crowd who seem to think God had a character change between Malachi and Mathew. Now, and despite that, I am being interrogated from the other side, by a person who believes exactly as I do.

Sorry,,, I can not remember the beginning of the thread at this point. What you say now, is what I see...

I prefer pacifism and knowing that a time is coming where there will be no war and no death and no disease... I tend to think God probably shares this view. But if you don't, that's fine... that's between you and God, not you and I.

That said... without recalling what you might have said earlier.... led me to think differently. Peter used a teaching technique of repetition. Sometimes we need to repeat something we said earlier... or clarify, what we said earlier... before making a statement that can be taken various ways otherwise.

Wishing you a Merry Christmas! GeneZ

 

[razzelflabben]

By their "fruitless" you will know them.

She needs to get hid in some sound teaching and transformed by the Spirit out of her attention seeking mode she is stuck in... Then she turns the tables on the other to make them feel they are the cause for the conflict.

and yet you have yet to find anything wrong with anything I have said on this thread as per your refusal to show me anything I have said (taught...your word not mine, I see myself as a student not a teacher) that is wrong.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have to agree. But none of us see what we are doing when we are caught up in being excessively self-centered. So she can plead ignorance as did Paul for his sins. That is, up to a point.

only problem is that I confess my sins while refusing to take upon myself the sins of someone else...it has taken a lot of work for me to become "brave" enough in Christ to only take upon myself what is mine and leave for others what is theirs but God has taught me to do so and I am not about to go against God's wisdom and Love.

Now, as another poster suggested, can we get back to the OP topic...you and another poster have already exhausted your false accusations of me might as well let it go and get back to task

 

[razzelflabben]

Tulc.... If the police came to the door with an arrest warrant for your cousin who had been living at your house?.... and you, having a gun permit (legal) decided to take a shot at the arresting officer? Would not Jesus rebuke you, too?

Likewise.... Jesus warned Peter... "they who take up the sword, will die by the sword", was in reference to Peter acting like a professional criminal. It had nothing to do with arming oneself.

Did you not read? Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of his sword. Instead, he told Peter to put it back in its holder.

Jesus got Peter off from being arrested for a criminal act by healing the guard's ear miraculously.

Now, I keep pointing you all back to the context and for that I am insulted and lied about but here we go again...notice the context...
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

The reason the reprimand was issued was because...according to context...the time had come. Anything else could be to read into the passage what is not there.

 

[razzelflabben]

Your reality... and this is a waste of time. I was the first to come on this thread and post real hard Scriptural evidence that we can use deadly force without it being sin. I was somewhat jumped on by the "NT ONLY" crowd who seem to think God had a character change between Malachi and Mathew. Now, and despite that, I am being interrogated from the other side, by a person who believes exactly as I do. Do you SEEK war? Do you SEEK to kill? No... neither do I... we both prefer peace. But we also BOTH acknowledge that there are times in the world TODAY when deadly force might be used and justifiably so. And yet you want to continue down this road of conversation with me, why?

don't worry about it, I pointed out context and for that I was insulted, lied about and further nasty stuff...