Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[PloverWing]

God being in control does not abrogate our responsibility to act in certain circumstances nor do I find this line of argumentation particularly convincing when we are talking about the direct application of self-defence with Guns or force in general. Let me ask you, is there no circumstance where the use of deadly force can be justified? I'm not saying it's good, but rather whether or not as an action it does not incur actual sin/guilt?

What is bothering me about this discussion is that both sides have shown scripture to defend their position and honestly I think that it is all pretty good analysis of scripture but only a small handful of people hear even seem to be trying to bring all the scripture together into something that would resemble the heart of God on the matter. IOW's with both sides being represented it would stand to reason that God's intent somehow reconciles all the scriptures together into one understanding that is consistent with the totality of scripture. Thus suggesting the answer is somewhere between the two extremes.

One of the really difficult issues here is that, in some situations, I think there may be no action that is free from sin/guilt. This is very unsettling to me, and it's possible that there are different, creative options that I would see if I had the mind and wisdom of God.

As I've mentioned earlier, my chief guiding principle in this is that I am commanded to love my neighbor as myself, to genuinely care for the well-being of my neighbor and to act in ways that support my neighbor's well-being. My neighbors, clearly, include the people under my care: my children, my spouse, my students, and so on. Our Lord has told us that my neighbors also include my enemies, those who wish me harm. Somehow, I have to care for all of them, and it's not always clear how to care for the one without harming the other.

In extreme situations, I would choose to harm the enemy who is attacking the person under my protection. It's the least evil choice that I can see. If I do not act, then I bear some moral responsibility for the harm that is done to the victim; I incur sin and guilt for my non-action. However: In choosing to harm the enemy, I also incur sin and guilt for my action; I bear moral responsibility for the injuries that I inflict on the attacker. I really do think that both paths involve some level of sin on my part.

When I can find some creative, alternative third path, I'll take it. If I can shout, or deflect, or distract, or do something else to thwart the attack without inflicting serious harm, then I'll choose that path. But if I can't find the alternative, then I'll pick the least sinful option that I can find, which may be violence, and throw myself on God's mercy. Violent defense of self and others is not a sin-free option; it's just the least evil option I see in some situations.

(I owe some of these ideas to Reinhold Niebuhr, whom I read back in college, and who struggled with nonviolence in the early decades of the 20th century. I hated his conclusions back then, but I think he may have been right.)

 

[dhh712]

This is a very hot topic that I am sure many have noticed. Both in Christendom and also outside of it as well. I have a stance on this, and I know there are many different stances. I know of people personally, that are believers that feel that we should have weapons in our home for defense, and also those that do not believe we should defend in a way that brings bodily harm to anyone? It seems that this is a topic that is extremely controversial.

I am interested to know if there are any other believers that feel as if they would not own a gun or a weapon in self defense, and why. I am also interested in knowing from the other perspective, those that are for owning them and do own guns and weapons, and why? Or even if you desire to not own any for that purpose, but are not against someone owning them?

I am for owning a gun for self-defense based on the biblical commandment "do not kill" which involves one's own life and self-preservation. If some whack nut is throwing bullets around and you have a means of preventing one from striking you, then based on this biblical commandment I think it right to attempt to use it in self defense.

 

[Lingshu]

So I would say yes a Christian can own guns and probably should.... The book Evolution Creationism Christianity by Dr Ellis Warner(while primarily devoted to the abiogenesis and creationist theories) explores the role of church and state in the book of John between Pilate and Jesus. His conclusion is that in the earthly kingdom we (humans) are faced with many problems that have no good solution. Thus we are all Pilate. Jesus sets the example and points to the future heavenly kingdom where different choices can be made. But Pilate is faced with the moral decision (let Jesus go) or the right decision (kill an innocent man to prevent the untold thousands that will die in a revolt). We may not like the choices we have but we live in a fallen earthly kingdom and need to make decisions based on the right (least harmful path). Thus in a self defense situation the least harmful is that your family survives an aggressor its the right decision although some may ague it is not the moral decision. But until we have incorruptible bodies and live in the heavenly kingdom - such is our lot. I would highly recommend the book, its short and its free on amazon if you have the kindle subscription.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0776LTCKV

 

[razzelflabben]

One of the really difficult issues here is that, in some situations, I think there may be no action that is free from sin/guilt. This is very unsettling to me, and it's possible that there are different, creative options that I would see if I had the mind and wisdom of God.

As I've mentioned earlier, my chief guiding principle in this is that I am commanded to love my neighbor as myself, to genuinely care for the well-being of my neighbor and to act in ways that support my neighbor's well-being. My neighbors, clearly, include the people under my care: my children, my spouse, my students, and so on. Our Lord has told us that my neighbors also include my enemies, those who wish me harm. Somehow, I have to care for all of them, and it's not always clear how to care for the one without harming the other.

In extreme situations, I would choose to harm the enemy who is attacking the person under my protection. It's the least evil choice that I can see. If I do not act, then I bear some moral responsibility for the harm that is done to the victim; I incur sin and guilt for my non-action. However: In choosing to harm the enemy, I also incur sin and guilt for my action; I bear moral responsibility for the injuries that I inflict on the attacker. I really do think that both paths involve some level of sin on my part.

When I can find some creative, alternative third path, I'll take it. If I can shout, or deflect, or distract, or do something else to thwart the attack without inflicting serious harm, then I'll choose that path. But if I can't find the alternative, then I'll pick the least sinful option that I can find, which may be violence, and throw myself on God's mercy. Violent defense of self and others is not a sin-free option; it's just the least evil option I see in some situations.

(I owe some of these ideas to Reinhold Niebuhr, whom I read back in college, and who struggled with nonviolence in the early decades of the 20th century. I hated his conclusions back then, but I think he may have been right.)

Let me say two things to this...especially since it's all hypothetical.

1. The very first thing I would hope to do is ask God how to glorify Him in the situation then allow God to do what He does best. In that no matter what happens I am not sinning. Quick story, not nearly as dramatic as the hypothetical but illustrates the power of God. Seven years ago our son died in a freak swimming accident. During the depths of our grief a man from our church (was excommunicated eventually) accused us of killing our son by bringing God's judgment for believing in the trinity. Every ounce of our beings wanted to destroy the man for the harm he was doing to us, our family, and even the same blame he put on our pastor. Well one day we ran into him at a local store. I prayed right then and there for God to show me how to love the man. Well, long story short my husband and the man almost came to blows in the store. On the other hand I was able to calmly talk to him and he eventually admitted he was wrong. To this day we have never gotten an apology but an admission is pretty impressive. The point of the story is that God promises to give us what we need at the time we need it to serve Him in Spirit and in truth. If we call on that promise and live in that truth whatever happens is God's and not ours....no matter how it turns out.

2. As a student of Biblical Love one thing that few people understand is that Love has a purpose. The purpose is reconciliation/restoration. Which is why I say try non lethal first but I digress. The point of bringing this into the discussion is that sometimes, Love is a very uncomfortable thing. Even if the intruder is killed, there might be others that reconcile to God through the incident. God is all about reconciling all who will come and we should be as well. In the OT there were situations in which death of some resulted in reconciliation of others. If I pray for God to show me and intervene and someone dies I should assume (given the promises of God) that the one who died would not have turned to God but someone else will because of the action. It's all about putting our faith in God and His promises and in that resting.

 

[JCFantasy23]

I don't own a gun for several reasons, but I see nothing wrong with them for personal security, especially if you have a family and God is entrusting you with the blessing of children or other family members and pets. It is fortunately rare a gun would need to be used in a house for home security but sometimes its better safe than sorry. I believe God pushes people toward security and protecting themselves - not just with security, but common sense and being responsible with planning, insurance (i'm not the best on this either but feel the push!), being careful for rainy days, etc.

 

[lee11]

hi

i think gun ownership for a Christian is a contradiction and at the same time a civil right to excise at certain times when it may be lawful but morally frowned upon because of our spiritual belief and religious status.

God wiped out humanity and saved Noahs seed, God Slew ER & Onan for there disobedience and commanded the Israelites to take the life of another when it was lawful such as a violation of one of the 614 statutes or war etc).

it is clear that God did not have a problem taking someones life when it was lawful, as an example and to deter disobedience.

i have also read the examples and teachings of Jesus and the demonstration of his unconditional love mercy and compassion and i believe both God and Jesus acted correctly given their situations.

i think believers struggle with the concept of being a Christian and exercising there civil liberties with in the boundaries and guidelines of the word of God.

there is a difference between being persecuted for your faith and being bullied or stood over by another person for no reason.

both responses are acceptable enduring and praying for that person develops the fruit of the spirit in your life and standing up for your self is also appropriate.

one or the other doesn't make you more holy or less of a Christian it just means you decide on what you believe is the most appropriate response in your situation.

the word of God gives us examples to consider such as to not to let our liberty become a stumbling block to others.

what we permit for our selves as an example, such as gun ownership etc, maybe the opposite of what another may permit or deny for themselves, both have the right to exercise there will.

be as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove.

Peace

 

[Juneairsbanjos]

To go back to the beginning, God is quite clear when He said, "Thou shalt not kill". I simple pray that under all circumstances I would not be tempted to kill anyone, or even animals, and that includes in self defense. I talked with me wife, and asked her if she understood that if a person was obviously going to attack her with a knife I could not shoot them if I was holding a gun. If I was close enough then attempt to get between them and her, but not KILL!

 

[Der Alte]

To go back to the beginning, God is quite clear when He said, "Thou shalt not kill". I simple pray that under all circumstances I would not be tempted to kill anyone, or even animals, and that includes in self defense. I talked with me wife, and asked her if she understood that if a person was obviously going to attack her with a knife I could not shoot them if I was holding a gun. If I was close enough then attempt to get between them and her, but not KILL!

And the most likely scenario would be that you would be killed and your wife more than likely sexually assaulted and killed. Criminals know that most non-criminals will react just as you describe. Therefore criminals are not afraid of a gun in the hands of non-criminal.

 

[Lingshu]

I have to simply disagree with Juneairsbanjos. The scripture is quite clear "thou shalt not murder". If you are going by old testament theology how can you defend David who kill his ten thousands, the prophet Elijah who slew the prophets of bail, Even Moses the giver of the law slew an Egyptian in anger. There is no precedent for such an interpretation as Juneairsbanjos in the bible. I would argue that if you had the means to prevent a murder and didn't you would be complicit in the murder and just as guilty if not more so than the murderer.

To go back to the beginning, God is quite clear when He said, "Thou shalt not kill". I simple pray that under all circumstances I would not be tempted to kill anyone, or even animals, and that includes in self defense. I talked with me wife, and asked her if she understood that if a person was obviously going to attack her with a knife I could not shoot them if I was holding a gun. If I was close enough then attempt to get between them and her, but not KILL!

 

[Butch5]

This is a very hot topic that I am sure many have noticed. Both in Christendom and also outside of it as well. I have a stance on this, and I know there are many different stances. I know of people personally, that are believers that feel that we should have weapons in our home for defense, and also those that do not believe we should defend in a way that brings bodily harm to anyone? It seems that this is a topic that is extremely controversial.

I am interested to know if there are any other believers that feel as if they would not own a gun or a weapon in self defense, and why. I am also interested in knowing from the other perspective, those that are for owning them and do own guns and weapons, and why? Or even if you desire to not own any for that purpose, but are not against someone owning them?

It's only a hot topic because many don't like what the Scriptures say on the subject. Jesus told His disciples to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek. The Church for the first 300 years was totally against the use of violence for any reason. One church leader, I can't recall the exact quote, but it was something along the line of, in our religion it is better to be killed than to kill.

 

[Lingshu]

It's only a hot topic because many don't like what the Scriptures say on the subject. Jesus told His disciples to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek. The Church for the first 300 years was totally against the use of violence for any reason. One church leader, I can't recall the exact quote, but it was something along the line of, in our religion it is better to be killed than to kill.

The scriptures say nothing on the topic. The Old Testament is ubiquitous with justified killing either in battle or not. Elijah, Moses, Joshua, David, Samson, Solomon, to name a few..... In the case of the new Testament Jesus NEVER says that one shouldn't use force to defend ones' life or the life of another. His examples are clearly meant to get people to consider options outside of the classic eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. He lives the example unto death as an example of the heavenly kingdom. Look at Pilate a ruler in the earthly kingdom, He has no good choice! He has the moral decision to let Jesus (an innocent man go) and face a revolt in Judea where thousands will die, or put one man to death so that many will live. We live in the earthly kingdom, Jesus' examples are meant not literally but as examples of a heavenly kingdom. They are ideas to get one to consider alternatives. How many Christians give up everything they have (possessions, money, job, family) to follow Christ? How many have sold their homes, donated all their money to the church, and refused to get married and have kids to take up the cross and follow Jesus? Yet Jesus plainly says to do this..... Mark 10:21 Luke 18: 22 etc. Since we are all communicating via a possession ( computer ) none of us have done this are we all in conflict of Jesus' commandments?

 

[Butch5]

The scriptures say nothing on the topic. The Old Testament is ubiquitous with justified killing either in battle or not. Elijah, Moses, Joshua, David, Samson, Solomon, to name a few..... In the case of the new Testament Jesus NEVER says that one shouldn't use force to defend ones' life or the life of another. His examples are clearly meant to get people to consider options outside of the classic eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. He lives the example unto death as an example of the heavenly kingdom. Look at Pilate a ruler in the earthly kingdom, He has no good choice! He has the moral decision to let Jesus (an innocent man go) and face a revolt in Judea where thousands will die, or put one man to death so that many will live. We live in the earthly kingdom, Jesus' examples are meant not literally but as examples of a heavenly kingdom. They are ideas to get one to consider alternatives. How many Christians give up everything they have (possessions, money, job, family) to follow Christ? How many have sold their homes, donated all their money to the church, and refused to get married and have kids to take up the cross and follow Jesus? Yet Jesus plainly says to do this..... Mark 10:21 Luke 18: 22 etc. Since we are all communicating via a possession ( computer ) none of us have done this are we all in conflict of Jesus' commandments?

It's about context. Jesus words aren't suggestions. He told His disciples to go and make disciples teaching them all He had commanded. Love your enemies is pretty clear. We also have 300 years of the earliest Christians in history, many who were taught by Jesus and the apostles. They absolutely forbid the use of violence. God gave Israel the Law as a way to rule a nation. Christians don't rule nations. As I said in the other post, this is only contraversial because people don't like what it says.

 

[Lingshu]

Again, I politely disagree. Jesus made a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple ( a violent - albeit non lethal use of force). Also what are Jesus' disciples doing with swords? If Jesus was so against the concept of violence why did he suffer his disciple to carry instruments of destruction? Luke 22:38. As well as John 18:10. Jesus never gives any parable or teaching that forbids one to use force in self defense. In the case of Peter John 18:10 it was not self defense as the Pharisees came for Jesus not for Peter. And Jesus told Peter that he wasn't going to fight and if Peter did than Peter would perish by the sword. There is no parable where Jesus says " If you are at home with your family and an evil man breaks into your house intent on killing your family that you are to do nothing."

 

[Lingshu]

Again, I politely disagree. Jesus made a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple ( a violent - albeit non lethal use of force). Also what are Jesus' disciples doing with swords? If Jesus was so against the concept of violence why did he suffer his disciple to carry instruments of destruction? Luke 22:38. As well as John 18:10. Jesus never gives any parable or teaching that forbids one to use force in self defense. In the case of Peter John 18:10 it was not self defense as the Pharisees came for Jesus not for Peter. And Jesus told Peter that he wasn't going to fight and if Peter did than Peter would perish by the sword. There is no parable where Jesus says " If you are at home with your family and an evil man breaks into your house intent on killing your family that you are to do nothing."

If there is such a parable forbidding the use of force in self defense please let me know the chapter & verse.

 

[Butch5]

Again, I politely disagree. Jesus made a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple ( a violent - albeit non lethal use of force). Also what are Jesus' disciples doing with swords? If Jesus was so against the concept of violence why did he suffer his disciple to carry instruments of destruction? Luke 22:38. As well as John 18:10. Jesus never gives any parable or teaching that forbids one to use force in self defense. In the case of Peter John 18:10 it was not self defense as the Pharisees came for Jesus not for Peter. And Jesus told Peter that he wasn't going to fight and if Peter did than Peter would perish by the sword. There is no parable where Jesus says " If you are at home with your family and an evil man breaks into your house intent on killing your family that you are to do nothing."

It's your prerogative to disagree if you choose to. Firstly, we're discussing Christians, not Jesus. Jesus also has the authority to judge the world, Christians don't. Jesus has the authority to forgive sins, Christians don't. There are a lot things Jesus can do that Christians aren't authorized to do. As far as a specific command addressing self defense, it's pretty clear, Love your enemies. That pretty much covers everything. The apostle Paul in Romans 12 also told his readers that they were not to avenge themselves. Regarding the swords, the machaira was actually a large knife/small sword. In the context of them getting swords, they were being sent out into the world. When Jesus sent them out the first time He told them not to take anything with them. Their needs would be meet by their countrymen as they were being sent to the Jews only. This time they were being sent to all nations and would need to provide for themselves.

 

[Lingshu]

If there is such a parable forbidding the use of force in self defense please let me know the chapter & verse.

It's about context. Jesus words aren't suggestions. He told His disciples to go and make disciples teaching them all He had commanded. Love your enemies is pretty clear. We also have 300 years of the earliest Christians in history, many who were taught by Jesus and the apostles. They absolutely forbid the use of violence. God gave Israel the Law as a way to rule a nation. Christians don't rule nations. As I said in the other post, this is only contraversial because people don't like what it says.

Many of Jesus' parables are to get one to consider other options. "You have heard it said and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say If someone smites you turn the other cheek." This is a philosophical revolution in Judea. It is about deescalation. The point is to prevent arguments from reaching a point where individuals are killed. I totally agree with this. One should take all actions to deescalate situations, but none of these parables are in a life threatening situation.

 

[Butch5]

Many of Jesus' parables are to get one to consider other options. "You have heard it said and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say If someone smites you turn the other cheek." This is a philosophical revolution in Judea. It is about deescalation. The point is to prevent arguments from reaching a point where individuals are killed. I totally agree with this. One should take all actions to deescalate situations, but none of these parables are in a life threatening situation.

Jesus didn't say follow my commands unless your in a life threatening situation.

 

[Lingshu]

It's your prerogative to disagree if you choose to. Firstly, we're discussing Christians, not Jesus. Jesus also has the authority to judge the world, Christians don't. Jesus has the authority to forgive sins, Christians don't. There are a lot things Jesus can do that Christians aren't authorized to do. As far as a specific command addressing self defense, it's pretty clear, Love your enemies. That pretty much covers everything. The apostle Paul in Romans 12 also told his readers that they were not to avenge themselves. Regarding the swords, the machaira was actually a large knife/small sword. In the context of them getting swords, they were being sent out into the world. When Jesus sent them out the first time He told them not to take anything with them. Their needs would be meet by their countrymen as they were being sent to the Jews only. This time they were being sent to all nations and would need to provide for themselves.

I agree with this, to a point, I would argue that Jesus was in a much better capacity to do what he wished as the sun of God and knowing the future and prophesy. We in the earthly kingdom look forward to the heavenly kingdom where we can make such decisions including ones of self sacrifice. A lot of this is based on interpretation your "enemy" could be a co-worker or boss, someone who is trying to sabotage you or ruin your career, but not necessarily someone who is going to kill you and everyone you love. I place this in a matter of conscience similarly as alcohol. The gospel does not forbid the use of violence in cases of self preservation nor does it specifically say one should use violence in this case. It rather leaves this up to the individual.

 

[Lingshu]

I agree with this, to a point, I would argue that Jesus was in a much better capacity to do what he wished as the sun of God and knowing the future and prophesy. We in the earthly kingdom look forward to the heavenly kingdom where we can make such decisions including ones of self sacrifice. A lot of this is based on interpretation your "enemy" could be a co-worker or boss, someone who is trying to sabotage you or ruin your career, but not necessarily someone who is going to kill you and everyone you love. I place this in a matter of conscience similarly as alcohol. The gospel does not forbid the use of violence in cases of self preservation nor does it specifically say one should use violence in this case. It rather leaves this up to the individual.

appologies for typo Son not Sun

 

[Lingshu]

Jesus didn't say follow my commands unless your in a life threatening situation.

A smite is hardly a life threatening situation.