Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

Butch5 said:

Jesus didn't say follow my commands unless your in a life threatening situation.

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Nothing Jesus is discussing in Mathew chapter 5 ( Where I presume you are getting your doctrine from as I have not been given the chapter and verses that you are using) would classify as a life threatening situation.

Butch5 said:

Jesus didn't say follow my commands unless your in a life threatening situation.

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One last thing, not because I disagree with you, but I do want you to think over your position very carefully. The punishment for murder in the law is death (Exodus, Numbers etc). Jesus says Mathew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." So if you are in a position to stop a murderer and do not. The victim has died. The murderer will be brought before the state and if you offer testimony against the murderer he shall be put to death by the state. In this situation you are now responsible for the deaths of two individuals the murderer and the victim. You killed the victim by doing nothing and the murderer by your testimony. In this scenario I do not think that the "do nothing" approach is righteous. The murderer has already been put to death in the eyes of the law. Whether you kill him or the law kills him is irrelevant as he is already dead. You have the power to save a life by your action - wouldn't you choose to save a life?

Buzz_B said:

LUKE 22

36 Yet He said to them, "But now, he who has a purse let him pick it up, likewise a beggar's bag also; and he who has none, let him sell his cloak and buy a sword."

In those days a sword was necessary to traveling, used to clear brush and defend against wild bores as well as other dangerous animals which lived and roamed the wilderness areas between cities. Unlike guns, a sword was a utility which came in useful many different ways.

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You left out the very verse that preceded those words spoken by Jesus. Luke 22:35.

Back together in its correct context.


First of all... they were expected to have a sword to begin with, and only those without one were told to purchase one.

Now? Were they not traveling before?

They did not need a sword then. Why?

Why this sudden change? Suddenly they are told to get a sword if they did not already have one! Keep in mind.. Jesus was knowing about the violence that was about to begin.

Earlier in Luke, Jesus also made it clearly known to his hearers..


Being "fully armed" was not for cutting through brush, or for fending off wild boars and dangerous animals.


(for clarification) "Strong man" in the Greek, spoke of a man's character, not about physical strength.

genez said:

You left out the very verse that preceded those words spoken by Jesus. Luke 22:35.

Back together in its correct context.

"Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals,
did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

Yet He said to them, "But now, he who has a purse let him pick it up, likewise a
beggar's bag also; and he who has none, let him sell his cloak and buy a sword."

​

First of all... they were expected to have a sword to begin with, and only those without one were told to purchase one.

Now? Were they not traveling before?

They did not need a sword then. Why?

Why this sudden change? Suddenly they are told to get a sword if they did not already have one! Keep in mind.. Jesus was knowing about the violence that was about to begin.

Earlier in Luke, Jesus also made it clearly known to his hearers..

“When a strong man, fully armed, guards
his own house, his possessions are safe." Lk 11:21​

Being "fully armed" was not for cutting through brush, or for fending off wild boars and dangerous animals.


(for clarification) "Strong man" in the Greek, spoke of a man's character, not about physical strength.

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You are right that is important to consider.

I would need to know who the ones were that did not yet have swords. They may perhaps have had occupations such as fisherman where a sword would not need to be a part of their everyday attire. Unless they traveled in the exposed areas of the land as a part of their daily routine they would not need a sword. At Luke 11:21 the Greek word "kathoplizo" refers to that which forms a protective covering, which can encompass a broad scope of specific types of arms. Verse 22 goes onto speak of that protective covering wherein he trusted being taken away from them by one who is stronger. And so I ask what the real value of what we see spoken there is to us? It puts me in mind of the following:

Isaiah 51:5 "My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust."

The danger of placing too much confidence in our own armor is typified by Isaiah 31:1 "Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!"

We easily end up as these ones: Daniel 11:38 "But in his estate shall he honour the god of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things."

There, that 'god of forces" (which rightly should be the lower case "god"), represents trust in man's military might and what God is doing is about teaching us the futility of that form of trust in ourselves and the contrivances born of our own wisdom.

It is true that God allows our governments to meet out justice but in the end even that will have proved to show us just how pitifully incapable we are without God himself is our armor.

Had man paid heed to God from the beginning, we would not have had any need to know this darker side of life and the consequences of a free will led by rebelliousness.

Buzz_B said:

You are right that is important to consider.

I would need to know who the ones were that did not yet have swords.

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If the Bible does not tell you? We don't need to know. Unless God opens your eyes to find it.

In the mean time there are too many truths it does tell us. Truths that are to become know.

Some Christians served in the Roman army honorably. General Douglas McCarthur practically begged to have Bibles written in the Japanese language to be distributed in occupied Japan after the war. Whoever was in charge, denied him his request. General George Patton in his earlier years needed to decide to enter the ministry, or to serve in the military. (little known facts because of the nature of the media) The Religious Life of George S. Patton - History

genez said:

If the Bible does not tell you? We don't need to know. Unless God opens your eyes to find it.

In the mean time there are too many truths it does tell us. Truths that are to become know.

Some Christians served in the Roman army honorably. General Douglas McCarthur practically begged to have Bibles written in the Japanese language to be distributed in occupied Japan after the war. Whoever was in charge, denied him his request. General George Patton in his earlier years needed to decide to enter the ministry, or to serve in the military. (little known facts because of the nature of the media) The Religious Life of George S. Patton - History

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Yes, I agree that serving in the military does not of necessity constitute one as ungodly or as an adversary against God. After all, God sanctions our governments to stand or to fall.

If I be a body part of Christ, for example, the little finger on Christ's hand to do his will, how can I also be a finger on the hand of a man of this world in his command whom I cannot necessarily rely upon to command the way of Christ? If I am a whole burnt offering to God what part of me is left to serve the will of men?

Buzz_B said:

The danger of placing too much confidence in our own armor is typified by Isaiah 31:1 "Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!"

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You need a little background for that passage?

Isaiah was warning King Hezekiah (who was being weak) not to seek outside armies to fight off the very real enemies of Israel at that time. (the Assyrians)

Isaiah over the years with various kings always preached that if the people did not depend on mere force, and if they turned back to the Word of God? That Israel would be defended. The Lord was not against Israel having an army of their own (as you would make it seem.) The book of Numbers says just the opposite to that. The problem was with the great apostasy in the land that was making the people weak and afraid. As a result they were tempted to seek outside help (Egyptian army) instead of turning back to the Lord who would strengthen them and make them able to fight valiantly if need be. Apostasy when it becomes too prevalent makes a people weak and fearful against their enemies.

David did not "pray" Goliath to death. Though David was a man a prayer before he killed Goliath.

Apostasy makes one afraid to defend oneself if its needed to be done. God makes a believer strong in battle if that believer is strong in grace and God's Word. Apostasy makes a man a coward in battle. Be it in the military, or in self defense.

Speaking of a people who are apostate? ... They become cowards because God's grace is not with them.

Buzz_B said:

If I am a whole burnt offering to God what part of me is left to serve the will of men?

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Where did you get that from? God has instituted men to be in authority, if you like it or not.

Sometimes God has what we would call "bad authority" raised up for our discipline because as a people we are apostate. And, raises up another in authority when the people are living by sound doctrine and not some nonsense someone makes up using Bible passages to justify his weakness and erroneous thinking.

genez said:

If the Bible does not tell you? We don't need to know. Unless God opens your eyes to find it.

In the mean time there are too many truths it does tell us. Truths that are to become know.

Some Christians served in the Roman army honorably. General Douglas McCarthur practically begged to have Bibles written in the Japanese language to be distributed in occupied Japan after the war. Whoever was in charge, denied him his request. General George Patton in his earlier years needed to decide to enter the ministry, or to serve in the military. (little known facts because of the nature of the media) The Religious Life of George S. Patton - History

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funny story about the military...our eldest went into the military but didn't want to hurt anyone so he became a medic. Told everyone he was a "back slidden Brethren"...early on he got a tattoo that was an ichthus which reads, "Love your enemy thus saith the Lord." It is totally possible to serve in the military while being a pacifist another great example is based on the movie Hacksaw Ridge...excellent movie btw...

(Just adding to your post not disagreeing)

razzelflabben said:

funny story about the military...our eldest went into the military but didn't want to hurt anyone so he became a medic. Told everyone he was a "back slidden Brethren"...early on he got a tattoo that was an ichthus which reads, "Love your enemy thus saith the Lord." It is totally possible to serve in the military while being a pacifist another great example is based on the movie Hacksaw Ridge...excellent movie btw...

(Just adding to your post not disagreeing)

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Misreading the intent.... Jesus spoke of one's personal enemies that we face in life. Not about criminality nor nations set on destroying yours. And, he spoke about not hating. Doing what is needed to protect your home and family does not require hatred.


Why was Paul using that military metaphor as a positive example?


Why was Jesus using that as a positive way to see things, and not condemn it?

Sorry... not everyone has what it takes to fight in battle. The Bible makes room for them.



We should not give excuses to those who are willing to lay down their lives for their brothers in the defense of their nation. As seen in that passage... cowardice is like a communicable disease - one coward encourages cowardice among others. Not that your son was a coward. He was not afraid to say who he was.

God's Word will not change to accommodate what makes us feel uncomfortable with ourselves.


Deny your own feelings and accept the needed death to your old self if need be. Its required if you are truly going to follow The Word of God.


You want to follow "The Word of God?"

The Word that was made flesh and lived amongst us.

Trouble we all must face.. Parts of the Word will offend and demand of the believer things that he by his natural nature will find unsettling... unless he walks in the Spirit and finds himself becoming transformed *by grace* into the new person God wants him to be. The new man in Christ that does not have to succumb to the same weaknesses that his natural inclinations lead him into.


In weakness! We all have them. That is why God places us in situations where it demands an end to our old way of life and thinking. Most will not be willing to find it. Instead, they choose the "broad and wide way" and make excuses.

Its not cut and dry either... For it requires growing in knowledge and gaining insight before one truly discovers the life awaiting to be discovered in Christ.
There will be no excuses when we stand before the Lord for the evaluation.

genez said:

Misreading the intent.... Jesus spoke of one's personal enemies that we face in life. Not about criminality nor nations set on destroying yours. And, he spoke about not hating. Doing what is needed to protect your home and family does not require hatred.

"Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call,
who will get ready for battle?" 1 Corinthians 14:8​

Why was Paul using that military metaphor as a positive example?

"Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down
first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who
comes against him with twenty thousand?" Luke 14:31​

Why was Jesus using that as a positive way to see things, and not condemn it?

Sorry... not everyone has what it takes to fight in battle. The Bible makes room for them.

"The officers will continue to address the army and say, ‘Is there any man who
is afraid or cowardly? Let him leave and return home, so that his brothers’
hearts won’t melt like his own.’ " Deuteronomy 20:8​

We should not give excuses to those who are willing to lay down their lives for their brothers in the defense of their nation. As seen in that passage... cowardice is like a communicable disease - one coward encourages cowardice among others. Not that your son was a coward. He was not afraid to say who he was.

God's Word will not change to accommodate what makes us feel uncomfortable with ourselves.

"Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said:
“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and
take up their cross and follow me." Mark 8:34​

Deny your own feelings and accept the needed death to your old self if need be. Its required if you are truly going to follow The Word of God.


You want to follow "The Word of God?"

The Word that was made flesh and lived amongst us.

Trouble we all must face.. Parts of the Word will offend and demand of the believer things that he by his natural nature will find unsettling... unless he walks in the Spirit and finds himself becoming transformed *by grace* into the new person God wants him to be. The new man in Christ that does not have to succumb to the same weaknesses that his natural inclinations lead him into.

"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power (grace) is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Corinthians 12:9​

In weakness! We all have them. That is why God places us in situations where it demands an end to our old way of life and thinking. Most will not be willing to find it. Instead, they choose the "broad and wide way" and make excuses.

Its not cut and dry either... For it requires growing in knowledge and gaining insight before one truly discovers the life awaiting to be discovered in Christ.

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge
and depth of insight." Philippians 1:9
​

There will be no excuses when we stand before the Lord for the evaluation.

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Not sure what you think I was saying, it was just a story I thought was appropriate to share....that being said, let me also say this....scripture says we are in a war, it's both a war with our old man and with the enemy...if we took the strong pacifist stand in those wars what would happen to our faith? For example, when satan attacks us if we just turned the other cheek what would happen to our faith? What about the old man, what if, instead of crucifying the old man we just turned the other cheek, never really resisting to the point of death?

The questions are intended to make us think not necessarily to have an answer...there is a time to fight, a time to kill (as in the old man) to deny this is to leave out huge chunks of scripture. That being said there is also a time to turn the other cheek, to become the martyr, to allow the persecutor to kill us.

I honestly do NOT believe that the OP question has only one biblcial answer...consider Ecc. there is a time for everything under the sun. The question then becomes when is the time and how do we know...my answer is to seek God first and allow Him to tell us.

Now, as to the specific intent of the military...my point was that pacifism and military can and do co exist even though we don't usually think about it that way. That is all, a comment intended to make us think about things in a different way than we are used to...remember, at the end of my post I said, I am NOT disagreeing with you only adding a layer to the discussion. Take it or leave it, your choice.

razzelflabben said:

Not sure what you think I was saying, it was just a story I thought was appropriate to share....that being said, let me also say this....scripture says we are in a war, it's both a war with our old man and with the enemy...if we took the strong pacifist stand in those wars what would happen to our faith? For example, when satan attacks us if we just turned the other cheek what would happen to our faith?

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Turn the other cheek does not apply to war, nor against criminality. When Jesus taught about turning the other cheek the Jews were under Roman occupation. Roman soldiers were cruel and arrogant many times with the people they had conquered. Jesus was teaching the Jews how to survive and minimize their physical harm by not reacting in pride, but to humble themselves in the face of this reality. Roman soldiers were seen by the Jews as swine living amongst them. These were seen as uncircumcised heathen trampling their holy land. Kind of like what we see with Muslims not wanting "the heathen" living with them in their lands.

Jesus was telling them that when a Roman soldier did not like something about you, that if he slaps you down? Turn the other cheek. Why? Jews who were proud and resistant were getting themselves beaten,and even worse, when they were defiant. After all, the Jews were under Roman occupation because as a people of God had become apostate. Proof of this is how the corrupt teachings of the Vatican... I mean.. the Pharisees... had taken over their thinking.

Why do you think Jesus said to go the extra mile? The Roman occupation! It was military conscription. The Roman military would demand Jews to carry supplies to another location. "YOU! Jew! Pick this up and take it to where we tell you!"

What happened? A Jew could get himself harmed physically in a very bad way if they defied the Roman command. Jews were proud and saw these "heathen Romans" as scum... "Goyim!" "Filthy uncircumcised foreskins!" (you need to get to picture as to how the Jews saw the Romans)

Jesus said... not only do what is needed when demanded to go a mile, but even offer to do more! Hence? Keep yourselves as safe as possible while under enemy occupation! Stay alive to live another day learn to serve the Lord!

Those passages have nothing to do about pacifism as we have now distorted those passages to mean!

We have (confusingly) accepted a lie (those who do) because by nature these souls are timid and afraid. Seeking comfort in feeling justified rather than ashamed as done with the Jehovah Witnesses.

genez said:

Turn the other cheek does not apply to war, nor against criminality. When Jesus taught about turning the other cheek the Jews were under Roman occupation. Roman soldiers were cruel and arrogant many times with the people they had conquered. Jesus was teaching the Jews how to survive and minimize their physical harm by not reacting in pride, but to humble themselves in the face of this reality. Roman soldiers were seen as swine living amongst the Jews. These were uncircumcised heathen trampling their holy land. Kind of like what we see with Muslims not wanting "the heathen" living with them in their lands.

Jesus was telling them that when a Roman soldier did not like something about you, that if he slaps you down? Turn the other cheek. Why? Jews who were proud and resistant were getting themselves beaten even worse when they were defiant. After all, the Jews were under Roman occupation because as a people of God had become apostate. Proof of this is how the corrupt teachings of the Vatican... I mean.. the Pharisees had taken over their thinking.

Why do you think Jesus said to go the extra mile? Roman occupation! Romans would demand of Jews to carry supplies to another location. "YOU! Jew! Pick this up and take it to where we tell you!"

What happened? A Jew could get himself harmed physically in a very bad way if they defied the Roman command. Jews were proud and saw the "heathen Romans" as scum... "Goyim!" "Dirty uncircumcised foreskins! (you got to picture how the Jews saw the Romans) Jesus said... not only do what is needed, but even offer to do more! Hence. Keep yourselves as safe as possible while under enemy occupation! Stay alive another day to serve the Lord!

Those passages have nothing to do with pacifism as we have now distorted those passages to mean! We have (confusingly) accepted a lie (those who do) because by nature they are timid and afraid, and seeking comfort in feeling justified rather than ashamed.

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okay then...nice way to miss the point of what I was saying!

razzelflabben said:

funny story about the military...our eldest went into the military but didn't want to hurt anyone so he became a medic. Told everyone he was a "back slidden Brethren"...early on he got a tattoo that was an ichthus which reads, "Love your enemy thus saith the Lord." It is totally possible to serve in the military while being a pacifist another great example is based on the movie Hacksaw Ridge...excellent movie btw...

(Just adding to your post not disagreeing)

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Interesting story!

Yes, the ICHTHUS fish sign is a well liked Christian tattoo symbol <><.

So which placement did he choose for his <><?

I was just correcting an error you were making while trying to make your point...

"Turning the other cheek" .. has nothing to do with your war example.

razzelflabben said:

Not sure what you think I was saying, it was just a story I thought was appropriate to share....that being said, let me also say this....scripture says we are in a war, it's both a war with our old man and with the enemy...if we took the strong pacifist stand in those wars what would happen to our faith? For example, when satan attacks us if we just turned the other cheek what would happen to our faith? What about the old man, what if, instead of crucifying the old man we just turned the other cheek, never really resisting to the point of death?

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And, neither does resisting to the point of death have anything to do with the warfare you spoke about.

genez said:

Where did you get that from? God has instituted men to be in authority, if you like it or not.

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no
authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have
been appointed by God." Romans 13:1​

Sometimes God has what we would call "bad authority" raised up for our discipline because as a people we are apostate. And, raises up another in authority when the people are living by sound doctrine and not some nonsense someone makes up using Bible passages to justify his weakness and erroneous thinking.

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I get the idea concerning being as a whole burnt offering in our allegiance to God alone, from Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

That is what the whole burnt offering under the Old law Covenant pictured. We are not to "halt .. between two opinions" (1 Kings 18:21) or be "lukewarm" (Revelation 3:16) in our commitment to God else we are only fooling ourselves.

2 Timothy 2:4 "No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier."

Are man's armies concerned with the affairs of God's coming kingdom or with the affairs of this life? We must remember that God used even ungodly nations to defend his people Israel and he later punished those same nations for their wickedness. The fact that God chooses to use a nation to momentarily guard the path which he uses to unfold his purpose of bringing in his kingdom does not sanction that nation as holy nor worthy of our participation with as a soldier. We are supposed to already be Christ's soldier and under his command.

It is easy to jump and call men cowards for not wishing to participate in their nations' military. While it can be the case that a man does not wish to participate for selfish personal concerns such as the fear of personal death, I think that is far less likely the case than many military supporters imagine. In many countries people who follow Christ willing accept being put to death by their government rather than to compromise their allegiance to Christ. They are surely not cowards.

I think we can all agree that if a man found he was in a position to stop the Los Vegas Mandalay Bay shooter but failed to do so for fear of the risk to himself, his life really lost its meaning and purpose by his cowardice. That kind of cowardice is not common to anti-war protestors and conscientious objectors. Perhaps some who support serving in the military would like for it to be the common reason for it would simplify their being able to hate conscientious objectors for their stand. But regardless of what war supporters might like, most conscientious objectors are far from being cowards. I would even go so far to say as that they are braver than many who choose to enter the military just to avoid being ridiculed or looked down upon.

razzelflabben said:

Not sure what you think I was saying, it was just a story I thought was appropriate to share....that being said, let me also say this....scripture says we are in a war, it's both a war with our old man and with the enemy...if we took the strong pacifist stand in those wars what would happen to our faith? For example, when satan attacks us if we just turned the other cheek what would happen to our faith? What about the old man, what if, instead of crucifying the old man we just turned the other cheek, never really resisting to the point of death?

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Believers who are professional soldiers must fight the two kinds of wars at once. So do business men who must deal with the business world. So does a husband who must fight off the demons who hate to see happy marriages.

faroukfarouk said:

Interesting story!

Yes, the ICHTHUS fish sign is a well liked Christian tattoo symbol <><.

So which placement did he choose for his <><?

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wrist

genez said:

I was just correcting an error you were making while trying to make your point...

"Turning the other cheek" .. has nothing to do with your war example.



And, neither does resisting to the point of death have anything to do with the warfare you spoke about.

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lol now what was the point? I even specified that the point was to ask questions that make the pacifist all the time not matter think...didn't I? WEll, yes I did specify that as the point and you totally missed it in exchange for the "right" to say that you corrected something that wasn't even on the table at the time...how odd that you would feel compelled to "correct" something that wasn't even being discussed...!

genez said:

Believers who are professional soldiers must fight the two kinds of wars at once. So do business men who must deal with the business world. So does a husband who must fight off the demons who hate to see happy marriages.

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huh? What does any of this have to do with what I said?