Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[GenemZ]

Jesus didn't make any distinction and Christians for the 300 years didn't make any distinctions they simply would not use violence. What I want doesn't have any bearing on the subject. The question is what are Christians to do? The evidence from the Scriptures and first 300 years of the Christian faith are very clear, no violence.

You still confuse martyrdom with defending oneself against criminal intent. If you refuse to defend your wife and kids when someone is threatening them with bodily harm? You'd be worse than an infidel.

First of all its horrible to not provide for them simple food and shelter.

"But if anyone does not provide-for his own relatives, and especially
family-members, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Tim 5:8​

And, not arming your self for self defense? Jesus himself says you are *dead* wrong.

"Whenever the strong man having fully-armed-himself is guarding his own
courtyard, his possessions are in peace. " Lk 11:21​

How do you explain that away? They did not have any issue with criminality and self defense like you do. For, you are not differentiating and are still confusing dying for ones faith as a testimony for Christ.... with a simple matter of facing a criminal who can care nothing for what you believe, but simply has killer lust. Those constitute two very different reasons for dying.


And, Jesus did not tell Peter to throw his sword away. Instead, he told Peter to put it back in its holder. For Peter had committed a crime. He had attacked an arresting officer. Peter was acting like a criminal. That is why he rebuked Peter by telling him. those who "live by the sword" (criminals) shall die by the sword

".. for he is God’s servant to you for good. But if you are doing evil, be fearing! For he does not bear the sword in-vain— for he is God’s servant, an avenger for wrath on the one practicing evil." Rom 13:4​

Are you saying no Christian should be a policeman? Only unbelievers should be?

 

[Butch5]

You still confuse martyrdom with defending oneself against criminal intent. If you refuse to defend your wife and kids when someone is threatening them with bodily harm? You'd be worse than an infidel.

First of all its horrible to not provide for them simple food and shelter.

"But if anyone does not provide-for his own relatives, and especially
family-members, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Tim 5:8​

And, not arming your self for self defense? Jesus himself says you are *dead* wrong.

"Whenever the strong man having fully-armed-himself is guarding his own
courtyard, his possessions are in peace. " Lk 11:21​

How do you explain that away? They did not have any issue with criminality and self defense like you do. For, you are not differentiating and are still confusing dying for ones faith as a testimony for Christ.... with a simple matter of facing a criminal who can care nothing for what you believe, but simply has killer lust. Those constitute two very different reasons for dying.

Again, you're making a distinction where Jesus made none. He didn't say love your enemies, except when. And, as I've pointed out repeatedly, for 300 years Christians had no problem with this. They simply wouldn't use violence. It's really a matter of trust. Is God capable of protecting one's family? I think this issue really shows if we trust God. Why is it that so many Christians will say they trust God fully for salvation? Probably because there's nothing they can do to raise themselves from the dead.It's not hard to trust someone else when one can do nothing. One can only trust God to raise them from the dead. However, when it comes to one's physical life, all of sudden they do seem to have that same trust. Now all of sudden they want to eliminate the threat. Why do you suppose that is?
Maybe we should more like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?1
15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. (Dan. 3:14-18 KJV)

Is God able to deliver the Christian from the hands of a murderer? In the face of death they chose to obey God rather than the king.

Firstly, please show in context how Paul is using that passage to allow for the use of violence. Secondly, Jesus gave an example in a parable. He didn't say do this. There's nothing to explain away, we just look at the passages in context.

 

[GenemZ]

Again, you're making a distinction where Jesus made none.

And.. you keep on ignoring this factor.

"Whenever the strong man having fully-armed-himself is guarding his own
courtyard, his possessions are in peace. " Lk 11:21

Why did Jesus say that a fully armed man safe in his house?

Make a distinction, now.

 

[Butch5]

And.. you keep on ignoring this factor.

"Whenever the strong man having fully-armed-himself is guarding his own
courtyard, his possessions are in peace. " Lk 11:21

Why did Jesus say that a fully armed man safe in his house?

Make a distinction, now.

I haven't ignored anything. I addressed this passage in the last post. However, you've not addressed the historical evidence. I asked you to provide the context, you didn't. If you read the next verse Jesus goes on to say that the strong mans goods are safe until one stronger than him comes and takes his stuff. It example He is using to make a point. He didn't say followers go do this. If you look at the context He's not even talking about self defense. The context is about a man having a demon and Jesus casting it out.

 

[GenemZ]

Maybe we should more like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

You want to be? They were all castrated, like other such captives under the king. They were captives of WAR.

When a criminal threatens you with bodily harm? You are not a captive of war. Matter of fact, being a captive of war is when Jesus says we should turn the other cheek. For he was speaking of the harsh treatment Jews were receiving under the Roman occupation of Israel.

 

[GenemZ]

The context is about a man having a demon and Jesus casting it out.

But? Jesus was using a fully accepted real life situation to illustrate with. You keep failing to see that point. Jesus would not use some illegitimate practice to justify his position concerning what he wished to describe using an analogy.

 

[GenemZ]

If you read the next verse Jesus goes on to say that the strong mans goods are safe until one stronger than him comes and takes his stuff. It example He is using to make a point.

"Whenever the strong man having fully-armed-himself is guarding his own
courtyard, his possessions are in peace. " Lk 11:21

When he changed to a stronger other person taking that man's goods? He spoke of himself. No one is stronger than the Lord.

Why do you work to buy food? Why not depend upon the Lord to put it on your doorstep every morning? After all? He created food. (that's the kind of reasoning you give me)

 

[GenemZ]

I haven't ignored anything. I addressed this passage in the last post. However, you've not addressed the historical evidence. I asked you to provide the context, you didn't. If you read the next verse Jesus goes on to say that the strong mans goods are safe until one stronger than him comes and takes his stuff. It example He is using to make a point. He didn't say followers go do this. If you look at the context He's not even talking about self defense. The context is about a man having a demon and Jesus casting it out.

You are ignoring this.....

The world would be enslaved now if too many people thought like you do. ​

The Normandy American Cemetery, overlooking Omaha Beach and the English Channel, was established on June 8, 1944, as the first U.S. cemetery in Europe during World War II. It holds the graves of more than 9,300 U.S. servicemen who died in the D-Day invasion or subsequent missions.

Two American World War II veterans pay their respects to their fallen brethren. Approximately 1 million visitors travel to the Normandy cemetery each year.

 

[razzelflabben]

Thank you... You just explained what you meant what you were saying when you wrote?



Thanks! ... now I understand what you meant?
I guess you can not even explain it?

huh? I did explain it...what did you not understand? specifically....

 

[razzelflabben]

No that is incorrect and what it shows is how some groups will try and use scripture to support their own agenda.

What it says is that the Law and the Prophets teaching is framed for that purpose.

be careful in your claims I did the research using scripture only...

So let's look at it shall we? Why was the law (Mosaic) given? Why did the prophets come? Let's start there and discuss this a bit before you dismiss it...more to come if you are willing to discuss not just dismiss.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Particularly in Western Canada there is also the aspect of defending oneself in remote areas from fierce, wild animals.

 

[Buzz_B]

“The world would be enslaved now if too many people thought like you do.”

I ask whether that merely be one's fear causing them to surmise that to be the inevitable outcome. We claim to believe that God is in control. We believe that God helps those who help themselves. We merely disagree on the mechanics of how that works. What one calls reliance on God, I call trusting in one's own fleshly wisdom. What I call reliance on God, they call trusting in one's own fleshly wisdom. That creates an impasse between us insofar as understanding each the other.

I say that while one emphasizes so greatly a vain sort of freedom they keep digging their self and all of us along with them deeper and deeper into slavery. Has sin been defeated by thousands of years of man warring against other men? Have not even the so-called free nations fallen deeper and deeper into the futility of all sorts of sin which renders them increasingly enslaved despite their claims to be free? How deep into sin's form of slavery must we fall before they understand that what they are calling freedom has been being rendered worthless? IMHO their way is like a man who is being eaten away inside by cancer gloating that he is OK if he can but keep himself feeling well so that he can ignore the cancer eating him away on the inside.

IMHO all their brand of freedom has accomplished is to allow society to ignore the more serious malady of sin eating us away at our core. IMHO their brand of freedom has provided the best of all possible incubating environments for all sorts of maladies of sin to flourish unchecked. IMHO their short-sighted laws are made by men according to what seemed good to themselves and the brand of freedom which comes along with such irresponsible law has proven only to allow men to ignore accountability for sin. Yet they would call us unreasonable who see the futility of their ways.

We are counseled in the Scriptures to be, “Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.” (Ephesians 5:16 - KJV)

“Making good use of the time, because the days are evil.” (Ephesians 5:16 – BBE)

“Buy up your opportunities, for these are evil times.” (Ephesians 5:16 – WEY)

IMHO those who support man's military forces are advocating allowing our nations' military institutions to spend our “opportunities” according to what our military leaders deem wise. That IMHO leaves the one obeying them dangerously compromised as concerns the only things that can really guarantee life and freedom to us.

The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same old things over and over again expecting different results. Their way has been tried over and over again for thousands of years and all through that time man has only spiraled downward to the point where his continued insistence upon doing it in that way now threatens to wipe out all life as we know it from this earth. Man will either now obey God and “beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks” so that “nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more”, or, God will destroy those who do not:

Revelation 11:18 “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

Where is there any king of this present day earth shown not to be found to be a fighter against God at Revelation 16:12-21?

I see not one. Not even modern Israel is exempted. All who trust in man's great military machines will become food for carrion birds and other wild animals.

The deliverance of the Israelite people from Egypt was the model for us in this last time. The state of this world has become as Sodom and Egypt. (Revelation 11:8) God's people are about to be delivered from the Egypt like bondage of this world and from it's sin corrupted systems which presently make any freedom we imagine we have achieved only illusion. Our job is to have faith and stand and watch Gods salvation just as did those Israelite people whom Moses led beside the red sea. The fear which makes us want to take up mundane arms with which to protect ourselves is that same fear the people of Israel felt as they stood at the seeming insurmountable blockade of that red sea knowing that the Egyptian armies were chasing them to destroy them.

The mistake some are making is to look at the armies God allowed Israel to set up while they were in the wilderness. But they miss the point that God had left them have to wonder in the wilderness due to their lack of faith and due to their sins. God even allowed them kings of men because of their lack of faith in him. God was dealing with a faithless people, letting them share the struggles of entering into the promised land that they might learn that matter not how well organized they were militarily they were nothing lest God made their way for them. Had God not allowed them fleshly armies and fleshly kings the nation would have fell apart because of their fear and there would have been utter chaos and no nation for God to enter his plans in among mankind through. That nation of Israel was a picture of the world which God would seek to redeem from its Egyptian-like bondage to men and Sodom-like bondage to immorality via the prophet like unto Moses, who proved to be Jesus Christ. The Israel of Revelation chapter 7 represents the four corners of the earth, yes, the entire world in that bondage to the reverence and fear of men and deeply in bondage to sin. The many waters of the wells of this world's wisdom are like that red sea, a fitting name for it has been so colored by much bloodshed. God must part those waters for us. No human force can do so. That vast ocean of wisdom only fills us with vexation as we are unable to see any path through it.

 

[GenemZ]

huh? I did explain it...what did you not understand? specifically....

You.

 

[GenemZ]

“The world would be enslaved now if too many people thought like you do.”

I ask whether that merely be one's fear causing them to surmise that to be the inevitable outcome. We claim to believe that God is in control.

He is in control. That is why He gave us the book of Numbers. Its a book that explains without a strong military there is no national freedom. Book of Numbers was given to a people who had just witnessed to the parting of the Red Sea and watching Pharaoh's army destroyed. God determines if we need to fight or not. We do not get to pick and choose as some here think is the way. There is a time for peace. And, a time for war.

One of the GREATEST fears a man can face in his lifetime is in battle in warfare.... Or, when facing violent criminality.

One of the GREATEST ways for God to display His power of grace? Is in such a man. I am tired of these self centered cowards who distort God's Word as a means to justify their weakness.

"And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for
My strength is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Cor 12:9​

Cowards are Scriptural sneaks. They distort and twist Scripture in fear of coming out and facing the enemy. God gives us times of needing self defense as a means to see how we are accepting His grace, or rejecting it. A person who refuses to take up arms yet is willing to be a medic in time of battle I believe God honors, because he was willing to put his life on the line for the freedom of his nation. But? All medics are trained in the use of a firearm. For what happens if the enemy breaks into where he may be treating someone? ITS ALL IN GOD'S HANDS.

 

[GenemZ]

 

[gordonhooker]

be careful in your claims I did the research using scripture only...

So let's look at it shall we? Why was the law (Mosaic) given? Why did the prophets come? Let's start there and discuss this a bit before you dismiss it...more to come if you are willing to discuss not just dismiss.

We will just ha e to agree to disagree.

 

[razzelflabben]

You.

funny but not helpful...in fact, you don't know me or what I believe to have a problem with me and yet you do which says a lot...

 

[razzelflabben]

We will just ha e to agree to disagree.

so, your not willing to discuss or look at scripture much less answer questions...why are you here then?

 

[razzelflabben]

One poster was talking about cowards....seems to me that not discussing a topic is the cowards way but then again there are a couple of posters here who just seem to want to convince others that they have some special revelation but then flee when confronted with questions, inquires, and truth...where in scripture do we see that? What does scripture call those that behave that way? I guess I keep looking for a warrior of God who is willing to stand firm when that which they hold as truth is confronted because they have confidence it will stand in the face of challenge because it is the truth of God. Amen.

 

[gordonhooker]

so, your not willing to discuss or look at scripture much less answer questions...why are you here then?

This thread is about should Christians carry guns not about the research you did on Matt. 22:40.

I take your post #230 to be combative and I won’t be drawn into it. When a post reads:

be careful in your claims I did the research using scripture only...

So let's look at it shall we? Why was the law (Mosaic) given? Why did the prophets come? Let's start there and discuss this a bit before you dismiss it...more to come if you are willing to discuss not just dismiss.

In my opinion Jesus is about love not violence be it justified violence or not, and I am not going argue with you about that.