Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[tulc]

http://www.m7000.com/Avi/Galatians.htm


Regards,
Zak

uhmmm any chance you can summarize? Because there's a lot of stuff there.
tulc(just asking)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

uhmmm any chance you can summarize? Because there's a lot of stuff there.
tulc(just asking)

From what I could see, it appears to be summarizing Paul's epistles from the Jewish/Messianic view. I am a non-Jew "goyim" so I would of course have a different view and of course there is always this rather prophetic verse in Matthew 5 they use.

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may-be-passing-away the Heaven and the Land, iota one or one horn/keraia <2762>not no may-be-passing-away from the Law, till ever All shall-be-becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)"

2762. keraia ker-ah'-yah feminine of a presumed derivative of the base of 2768; something horn-like, i.e. (specially) the apex of a Hebrew letter (figuratively, the least particle):--tittle.

 

[TheCheat1]

http://www.m7000.com/Avi/Galatians.htm


Regards,
Zak

That is exactly what Paul was fighting against.

And I quote, Galatians 5:6, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."

And again, Galatians 3:24, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

V. 25, "But after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR."

"If righteousness comes through the law, Christ died in vain." -Galatians 2:21

There is no return to the Law (Galatians 2:11-21). The Bible states it clearly, Christ has freed us from the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:10-14)!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That is exactly what Paul was fighting against.

What part of Phil 3 do they not understand

Phil 3:2 Beware of-the Dogs, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision/kata-tomhn <2699>!
3 For we-are the circumcision/peri-tomh <4061>, ones to Spirit of God worship/latreuonteV <3000> , boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

Revelation 22:15 Without the Dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters/eidwlolatrai, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood .

 

[visionary]

The Bible states it clearly, Christ has freed us from the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:10-14)!

Amen... and just as clearly that mean it is the curse we are freed from but not the law itself.

 

[TheCheat1]

Or Romans or Hebrews.

 

[TheCheat1]

Amen... and just as clearly that mean it is the curse we are freed from but not the law itself.

I'll just quote myself:

"
And again, Galatians 3:24, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

V. 25, "But after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR."

"If righteousness comes through the law, Christ died in vain." -Galatians 2:21

"


Let me put this as bluntly as biblically possible:


"You are not under the Law but under grace." -Romans 6:14

 

[MamaZ]

Amen... and just as clearly that mean it is the curse we are freed from but not the law itself.

For if you want to follow any of the law you have to follow all of the law.. If you break one you break them all.. If you want to live by the law you will be judged by the law..

 

[visionary]

I'll just quote myself:

"
And again, Galatians 3:24, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

V. 25, "But after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR."

"If righteousness comes through the law, Christ died in vain." -Galatians 2:21

"


Let me put this as bluntly as biblically possible:


"You are not under the Law but under grace." -Romans 6:14

No argument there... we are not under the law but under grace... just pointing out that the law was not done away with... remember heaven and earth has not yet passed away....Also under grace we now come to understand the law is spiritual.

Remember Yeshua teaching how adultry law spiritually understood includes lusting when it comes to defining how it is broken... We are to apply the same principle to all the other laws, and have the Holy Spirit teach us the width, depth, and breath of the impact of the law in our lives.

 

[tulc]

Amen... and just as clearly that mean it is the curse we are freed from but not the law itself.

So you should keep the Law, seriously. I have no problem with you doing so (I don't see that we are required to but you can if you want) where the trouble comes in is you seem to be saying "I" have to do so also. And since I don't see the Scriptures saying that at all I'm going to have to go with how I understand them.
tulc(just a Christian doing his best)

 

[visionary]

For if you want to follow any of the law you have to follow all of the law.. If you break one you break them all.. If you want to live by the law you will be judged by the law..

Amen... that is what they are there for... they define sin.

 

[MamaZ]

Amen... that is what they are there for... they define sin.

so then you are still under sin?

 

[TheCheat1]

You said,

Amen... and just as clearly that mean it is the curse we are freed from but not the law itself.

Then you said,

No argument there... we are not under the law but under grace... just pointing out that the law was not done away with... remember heaven and earth has not yet passed away....Also under grace we now come to understand the law is spiritual.

Remember Yeshua teaching how adultry law spiritually understood includes lusting when it comes to defining how it is broken... We are to apply the same principle to all the other laws, and have the Holy Spirit teach us the width, depth, and breath of the impact of the law in our lives.

This doesn't make any sense. Of course the Law was not destroyed, but it was fulfilled. You are either under the law (following it) or not under the law (following Jesus). Christ fulfills the Law, we don't (Matthew 5:17). He said that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees of the first century, we will by no means enter Heaven (Matthew 5:20). The problem is, none of us exceed their righteousness (Romans 3:23, James 2:10)! What's that mean? We need Jesus' righteousness (Hebrews 10:10).

We are free from the law and are now slaves to Christ instead of to the law (Ephesians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 4:1, Galatians 1:10, Ephesians 6:6). If Christ is in us, then He has fulfilled the Law for us, and we are now led by the Spirit to do the will of God. You have to realize this, or you are still a slave to sin (Romans 6:14).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So you should keep the Law, seriously. I have no problem with you doing so (I don't see that we are required to but you can if you want) where the trouble comes in is you seem to be saying "I" have to do so also. And since I don't see the Scriptures saying that at all I'm going to have to go with how I understand them.
tulc(just a Christian doing his best)

As long as they do not try to put me under it, I am just fine with them keeping it.
Deut 28:48 is a rather interesting passage directed at the OC Hebrew Israelites. The same words used "yoke upon neck" is also used in Acts 15:10. I have a study on this.

Deuteronomy 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YHWH shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

Acts 15:10 Now then any/why ye are trying the God, to put a Yoke/zugon <2218> upon the Neck of the Disciples, which neither the fathers of us neither are we are able to bear?

Reve 6:5 And when it up-opens the third seal , I hear of the third living one saying: "Be you coming"! And I am looking and I see and Behold! A horse, black and the one-sitting-down upon it/him having a Yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him.

 

[visionary]

so then you are still under sin?

no that is for those who are still captive of their sins, but those who are overcomers, they walk on the foundation of the faith which is the law.

 

[visionary]

This doesn't make any sense. Of course the Law was not destroyed, but it was fulfilled. You are either under the law (following it) or not under the law (following Jesus). Christ fulfills the Law, we don't (Matthew 5:17). He said that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees of the first century, we will by no means enter Heaven (Matthew 5:20). The problem is, none of us exceed their righteousness (Romans 3:23, James 2:10)! What's that mean? We need Jesus' righteousness (Hebrews 10:10).

We are free from the law and are now slaves to Christ instead of to the law (Ephesians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 4:1, Galatians 1:10, Ephesians 6:6). If Christ is in us, then He has fulfilled the Law for us, and we are now led by the Spirit to do the will of God. You have to realize this, or you are still a slave to sin (Romans 6:14).

Sin is only defined by the law... The part of the law that you would be under when you sin, is the consequences (punishment for sin). Just like any law that you break.. take a speeding ticket... you broke the law... and you are now under the penalty of that law...

For your own personal experience... When does the sin come alive... when you realise it is sin,... and what awakened you to the fact that it was sin... conviction by the Holy Spirit.. and what did the Holy Spirit use to teach you that it is sin... the Ten Commandments...

 

[holo]

Amen... and just as clearly that mean it is the curse we are freed from but not the law itself.

Whoever is under the law is under a curse.

You can't be under the law without being condemned by it, or without it being the power of sin. You can't live both according to the Spirit AND according to the written code. You can't be married both to Christ and to the law.

 

[holo]

Amen... that is what they are there for... they define sin.

And why do you want to define sin? Did Adam and Eve lack anything since they had no definiton of sin?

 

[TheCheat1]

Sin is only defined by the law... The part of the law that you would be under when you sin, is the consequences (punishment for sin). Just like any law that you break.. take a speeding ticket... you broke the law... and you are now under the penalty of that law...

For your own personal experience... When does the sin come alive... when you realise it is sin,... and what awakened you to the fact that it was sin... conviction by the Holy Spirit.. and what did the Holy Spirit use to teach you that it is sin... the Ten Commandments...

"

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness.

. . .

But now we have been delivered from the Law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

"

Romans 6:15-18, 7:6.

 

[holo]

Sin is only defined by the law...

That's not entirely true, though. Sin is also defined as "whatsoever is not of faith".

The part of the law that you would be under when you sin, is the consequences (punishment for sin). Just like any law that you break.. take a speeding ticket... you broke the law... and you are now under the penalty of that law...

Yes, but if you weren't under that law to begin with, you couldn't be condemned by it either.

It makes absolutely no sense to say that being under the law only means being under the penalty of the law. Either you're under the law, or you're not. If you live in the USA, you are under American law regardless of whether you break it or not. If you told anyone you weren't under the law, they would obviously assume you mean that it simply doesn't apply to you.

And that's exactly what Paul means when he says we're not under the law. It simply doesn't apply to us. It's not some sort of weird complicated illogical statement - it's straightforward; we are not under the law. Simple as that.

For your own personal experience... When does the sin come alive... when you realise it is sin

Exactly. The commandment is the power of sin. We wouldn't have known covet unless the commandment said "do not covet". When the commandment came, sin sprang to life.

,... and what awakened you to the fact that it was sin... conviction by the Holy Spirit..

That would mean that the conviction of the Spirit is the power of sin. But it's not. It's the law that is the power of sin. It wasn't the Spirit that made Adam and Eve aware of sin. It was the knowledge of good and evil, the knowledge God forbade them to have.

and what did the Holy Spirit use to teach you that it is sin... the Ten Commandments...

Yes, if you're a jew under the old covenant. For all us others, though, there's the "demands of the law, written in their hearts" - but thankfully, now that we are dead and born again and living according to the Spirit, we don't have to try and follow some intepretation of the law, or our own less-than-trustworthy conscience. Paul said that his conscience was clean, but that didn't justify him - it was Christ and Christ only that justified him.

Anyway, the real question is still: What does Jesus need the ten commandments for? Would He hate God unless the law had commanded Him to love Him? Would He make people sick instead of healing them unless the law had said "you shall not kill"? Would Jesus steal stuff if it hadn't been prohibited?