Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[Alethes]

So now prayers being answered are also dependent on what man does? I think not..

HI MamaZ

I think not too!

Everything has to be law, I guess that Christ fulfilled the law and is the end of the law just goes over their heads.

 

[visionary]

Just like everything else, looking for the easy way out. Finding excuses doesn't change the consequences. What do you think of murder, has it become a non-sin, because we know it still exists in our world? What about lies, stealing, are they now a blessing in your life? Think about what you are saying.

Take the wall out and the flood will come in. Jesus may have helped you clean up your house, but he also shone a light on what is in the house and what does not belong. That does not change, has never changed and will not change in eternity. What is wrong is still wrong and by definition sin is defined by that very law you claim is done away with.

Those of us who live on this side of the law, have the Holy Spirit leading us into a better understanding on how Jesus kept it, and how He wants us to keep it. It is not in our understanding and effort but by His.

It is like this... let's say that you are way out in the ocean and there is the other boat that we are in which is also beside you. Our boat has a compass (Ten Commandments) by which guides us in which way we should go. Both boats have the sails, and the wind {Holy Spirit} blows where no one knows. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. All the instructions on navigation are in direct relationship to the use of the compass, which the ship builder has provided. Your boat has lost the compass. Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

 

[tulc]

Just like everything else, looking for the easy way out. Finding excuses doesn't change the consequences. What do you think of murder, has it become a non-sin, because we know it still exists in our world? What about lies, stealing, are they now a blessing in your life? Think about what you are saying.

So you believe people who don't "keep the Sabbath" are the same as murderers, liars and thieves?

Take the wall out and the flood will come in. Jesus may have helped you clean up your house, but he also shone a light on what is in the house and what does not belong. That does not change, has never changed and will not change in eternity. What is wrong is still wrong and by definition sin is defined by that very law you claim is done away with.

uhmm ok.

Those of us who live on this side of the law, have the Holy Spirit leading us into a better understanding on how Jesus kept it, and how He wants us to keep it. It is not in our understanding and effort but by His.

Hey! Cool! On our side it's not our efforts or understanding either but His as well!

It is like this... let's say that you are way out in the ocean and there is the other boat that we are in which is also beside you. Our boat has a compass (Ten Commandments) by which guides us in which way we should go. Both boats have the sails, and the wind {Holy Spirit} blows where no one knows. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. All the instructions on navigation are in direct relationship to the use of the compass, which the ship builder has provided. Your boat has lost the compass. Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

...so rather then just sticking to the same waters others have plotted before us, instead we trust Him to supply the winds and currents to take us where He will?
tulc(can live with that)

 

[visionary]

So you believe people who don't "keep the Sabbath" are the same as murderers, liars and thieves?

never said that.

uhmm ok.

Hey! Cool! On our side it's not our efforts or understanding either but His as well!

yes, on that we agree.

...so rather then just sticking to the same waters others have plotted before us, instead we trust Him to supply the winds and currents to take us where He will?
tulc(can live with that)

Here in lies the problem... 1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? How do you become learned? where do you gain wisdom from God? Lu 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Gaining wisdom is 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. You know... spiritual things like... Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Here in lies the problem... 1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? How do you become learned? where do you gain wisdom from God? Lu 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Gaining wisdom is 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. You know... spiritual things like... Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

And that is why the carnal man cannot keep the law. Because it is spiritual. Only a man guided by the spirit can keep the law. The spirit operates by the principle of love and love fulfills the law.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And that is why the carnal man cannot keep the law. Because it is spiritual. Only a man guided by the spirit can keep the law. The spirit operates by the principle of love and love fulfills the law.

One thing ya gotta admire about SDA's and Messianics, it is how they still interpret the Law.
I found this interesting while translating revelation from the Greek. This word used for "stingers" is used only 4 times in the NC and now I am beginning to view these unsavory characters as perhaps as a type of OC Judaizers as the ones Jesus railed against in Matthew 23. Still studying on this.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7249947

reve 9:10 and they are having tails like-as scorpions and stings/kentra <2759>, and in the tails of them the authority of them to injure the men months five

1 Corin 15:55 Where, O death, is thy victory? Where, O death, is thy sting/kentron <2759>? 56 Now, the sting/kentron <2759> of death is sin and the power of sin is the law;--

2759. kentron ken'-tron from kenteo (to prick); a point ("centre"), i.e. a sting (figuratively, poison) or goad (figuratively, divine impulse):--prick, sting.
#2759 used 4 times in NT. Used in Acts 26:14 and 1 Corin 15

 

[tulc]

So you believe people who don't "keep the Sabbath" are the same as murderers, liars and thieves?

never said that.

uhmmm actually you did right here:

Just like everything else, looking for the easy way out. Finding excuses doesn't change the consequences. What do you think of murder, has it become a non-sin, because we know it still exists in our world? What about lies, stealing, are they now a blessing in your life? Think about what you are saying.

Your post seemed pretty self explanatory to me.
tulc(suspects even coffee isn't going to help)

 

[PROPHECYKID]

uhmmm actually you did right here:


Your post seemed pretty self explanatory to me.
tulc(suspects even coffee isn't going to help)

But if Sabbath breaking is a sin and murder is a sin and all sin is sin then aren't all sinners just as bad as all sinners.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But if Sabbath breaking is a sin and murder is a sin and all sin is sin then aren't all sinners just as bad as all sinners.

Hi PK. Tell me which denominations within Christianity keep the Jewish Fri-Sat Sabbath? Are you saying those that aren't are sinners?

Matt 24:19 "Woe yet to those in belly having and to those suckling in those the days! 20 "Be ye praying yet that no may be becoming the flight of ye of winter neither a Sabbath.
http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country,

 

[tulc]

But if Sabbath breaking is a sin and murder is a sin and all sin is sin then aren't all sinners just as bad as all sinners.

Ahhh! So those who don't keep the Sabbath are actually in sin?
tulc(seems a little...harsh)

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hi PK. Tell me which denominations within Christianity keep the Jewish Fri-Sat Sabbath? Are you saying those that aren't are sinners?

Matt 24:19 "Woe yet to those in belly having and to those suckling in those the days! 20 "Be ye praying yet that no may be becoming the flight of ye of winter neither a Sabbath.
http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country,

To be honest with you after your last post I want to pretend as if you don't exist. But i don't think that God requires such.

If i believed that it was alright to break the Sabbath then why would i even be posting here? Why is having other gods, making graven images for worship, calling God's name in vain, dishonouring parents, stealing, murder, adultery, lying and coveting wrond but Sabbath breaking ok? Whichever denomination doing whatever does not concern me. I don't debate religion. I debate what I believe is the truth. If i did not think that Sabbath keeping was necessary then we would not even be having this conversation.

 

[Alethes]

Just like everything else, looking for the easy way out. Finding excuses doesn't change the consequences. What do you think of murder, has it become a non-sin, because we know it still exists in our world? What about lies, stealing, are they now a blessing in your life? Think about what you are saying.

Take the wall out and the flood will come in. Jesus may have helped you clean up your house, but he also shone a light on what is in the house and what does not belong. That does not change, has never changed and will not change in eternity. What is wrong is still wrong and by definition sin is defined by that very law you claim is done away with.

Those of us who live on this side of the law, have the Holy Spirit leading us into a better understanding on how Jesus kept it, and how He wants us to keep it. It is not in our understanding and effort but by His.

It is like this... let's say that you are way out in the ocean and there is the other boat that we are in which is also beside you. Our boat has a compass (Ten Commandments) by which guides us in which way we should go. Both boats have the sails, and the wind {Holy Spirit} blows where no one knows. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. All the instructions on navigation are in direct relationship to the use of the compass, which the ship builder has provided. Your boat has lost the compass. Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Hi visionary

It is important to note "to whom" the Epistle of James is addressed. The Epistles, such as Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I and II Thessalonians, are addressed specifically to the Church as are the personal Epistles like Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Hebrews is not addressed to the Church in the sense that we know the Church established on Pentecost. Hebrews is addressed to believers who are born again of God's Spirit but who have never walked in the freedom or the greatness of the new birth; Hebrews is written for those who are still zealous for the law. Likewise the book of James is addressed to the same Old Testament-minded believers.

James 1:1:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings.

Could God write the address any more directly? It is addressed to the twelve tribes that are scattered, the dispersed Jews. The reason James is so applicable to many believers today is that believers who are born again of God's spirit still do not want to believe the Scripture that is addressed to them; they seem to want to put themselves under the law again. This was a problem to the early church too.

Acts 21:20:
And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law.

These Jews were born again of God's Spirit, they were saved after Pentecost; but they were still zealous for the law. They never walked into the greatness of the revelation that came on the day of Pentecost which the Apostle Paul set forth and declared so boldly.

Galatians 5:1:
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The word "liberty" means "unrestricted, unfettered, free." Stand fast therefore in the liberty [in your unrestricted condition] wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

Those Epistles which are addressed to us (the body of Christ) must be specifically applied by us. All other Scripture is for our learning. We do not have to keep the Ten Commandments. They are not addressed to us. There is a greater law than the Ten Commandments the law of the "love of God 'in' Christ Jesus. If we live love with the power of God in us, and the renewed mind (Romans 12:2), will we so what is good and acceptable before God? Definitely; for we live on a higher plateau, we live by a greater law!

All the law-keepers I know live in the Old Covenant, and pay very little attention to the New Covenant. Now why is that?

 

[JudgeEden]

Hi PK. Tell me which denominations within Christianity keep the Jewish Fri-Sat Sabbath? Are you saying those that aren't are sinners?

Matt 24:19 "Woe yet to those in belly having and to those suckling in those the days! 20 "Be ye praying yet that no may be becoming the flight of ye of winter neither a Sabbath.
http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country,

LLOJ, this prophecy already happened, hundreds of years ago in fact. The Jews were slaughtered when a guy named Cestius came against them. All of the Jews died, except for the ones who remembered that prophecy and ran as the prophecy told them to. This is not the great tribulation though.

So, I dont know why you used this scripture to basically tell my good friend PK here that you dont have to follow the Sabbath. Whether YOU do or not is of no concern to me. I just wanted to point that out.


Matthew 24:17-21
"Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ, this prophecy already happened, hundreds of years ago in fact.

Oh ok. Didn't know if they knew that was fulfilled or not

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/eklausen <2799> (5656) on Her,

Reve 18:9 and shall be lamenting/klausontai <2799> (5695) and shall be wailing over Her

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2

 

[TheCheat1]

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Period. That should end any debate, the Scriptures are clear.

Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second one is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40).

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4).

Galatians 5:1-6,

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

 

[holo]

Just like everything else, looking for the easy way out. Finding excuses doesn't change the consequences. What do you think of murder, has it become a non-sin, because we know it still exists in our world? What about lies, stealing, are they now a blessing in your life? Think about what you are saying.

No, you think about what you are saying (or rather implying)!

Imagine that you suddenly came to the conclusion that you are indeed not under the law, in any way shape or form. Just imagine it. Would you respond to that by murdering people, or stealing, or blaspheming God? Would you? Why do you think others would? Is the law your only (or your best) reason not to be mean to people?

Take the wall out and the flood will come in. Jesus may have helped you clean up your house, but he also shone a light on what is in the house and what does not belong. That does not change, has never changed and will not change in eternity.

Actually, it has. All things have been made NEW!

That's what makes Jesus different from the sacrificial animals. Jesus actually took away sin, He didn't merely cover it up like the blood of the goats and bulls.

What is wrong is still wrong and by definition sin is defined by that very law you claim is done away with.

Yes, exactly! Sin is defined by the law. Sin is impossible apart from the law! That's the reason God commanded Adam and Eve NOT to know about good and evil! I'm sure that unless the bible had clearly said that, christians would've been outraged by such a notion; "what!? Not knowing right from wrong!? How could that possibly be a good thing?!?" - but yet, there it is. And it's true.

Why would you want to define sin, anyway? Why are you all constantly looking for the knowledge of sin, when you ought to look for the knowledge of righteousness?

Those of us who live on this side of the law, have the Holy Spirit leading us into a better understanding on how Jesus kept it, and how He wants us to keep it. It is not in our understanding and effort but by His.

But He doesn't want us to keep it! He wants us to DIE to it so that we may live as Adam and Eve lived.

It is like this... let's say that you are way out in the ocean and there is the other boat that we are in which is also beside you. Our boat has a compass (Ten Commandments) by which guides us in which way we should go. Both boats have the sails, and the wind {Holy Spirit} blows where no one knows. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. All the instructions on navigation are in direct relationship to the use of the compass, which the ship builder has provided. Your boat has lost the compass. Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Naw... one boat has the ten commandments on board. The other has Jesus on board. Not only that, the boat IS Jesus. And the sea is grace.

The real question is, what does Jesus need the ten commandments for? Would He go on a killing spree, for example, unless the law curbed Him? Would He think that adultery was a good thing unless the commandment told Him otherwise? Would He hate God unless He remembered to read the law that demanded that He love God?

 

[holo]

If i believed that it was alright to break the Sabbath then why would i even be posting here? Why is having other gods, making graven images for worship, calling God's name in vain, dishonouring parents, stealing, murder, adultery, lying and coveting wrond but Sabbath breaking ok?

That begs the question: why don't you make graven images, why don't you use God's name in vain, why don't you dishonour your parents, why don't you steal and murder, why don't you sleep with your neigbours' wives, why don't you lie and covet?

Think about it. WHY don't you do all those things?

 

[holo]

Jesus may have helped you clean up your house

I just have to get a hangup on this.

This is a perfect example of how diluted the gospel has become (no offense, visionary!). This is what so much of christianity is actually teaching. That Jesus helps you "clean your house" - it implies that you should do better, you should sin less, and if you still can't quite make it, then Jesus will graciously step in and patch your punctured tire, so to speak. But then you'd better make sure you really put down and effort the next time! Because now Jesus helped you out - and I'm sure He's thanking God He didn't have to do it all by Himself! - and it's only reasonable that you give Jesus a little less work the next time He must find the time to bail you out...

It's an extremely diluted, and therefore powerless, gospel.

It's a gospel that says that Jesus helps you out, not that "It is FINISHED!" It's a gospel that says you're a sinner, not that you've already been crucified, and resurrected, with Him. It's a gospel that says you are the same old vile sinner, not that you're a new creation. It's a gospel that says that Jesus' blood covers your past, but it doesn't change you anyhow. It's a gospel that reduces grace to mercy. It's a gospel that says that your rightreousness is your performance, not Christ. It's a gospel that says that God does NOT accept you. It's a gospel that says that you can somehow impress God, that man somehow has something to offer God. It's a gospel that says that the First Adam is actually stronger than the Second Adam.

And we wonder why people won't get saved... it's because we're pretty much offering them religion and morality, and they can get that elsewhere. They can get BETTER religion and morality elsewhere! We're acting as if Jesus said "I've come to give you morality and morality abundantly!"

 

[TheCheat1]

I'm reminded of Jesus' encounter with the Pharisees. Jesus' disciples were hungry on the Sabbath, and they were walking through fields of grain, so they started plucking the heads and eat them (which was technically work, and was breaking the Sabbath; the Pharisees were quick to point this out). The Pharisees said, "Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!"

But Jesus replied, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?"

What Jesus said next was radical:

"Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6)', you would not condemn the guiltless. For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."


-Matthew 12:1-8

 

[fritz300]

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Period. That should end any debate, the Scriptures are clear.

Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second one is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40).

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4).

Galatians 5:1-6,

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

http://www.m7000.com/Avi/Galatians.htm


Regards,
Zak