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Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

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holo

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We can not know sin except by the law
Exactly. Why would you want to know sin?

for the law defines sin.
It does, but don't forget that sin was around before the law was given as well. We gentiles had our own "law" even if we didn't have the written one.

Obedience to the law by the guidance of the Holy Spirit
is the only way
No, Christ Himself is the only way. God didn't create us to obey some law, but to simply have fellowship with Him. The law doesn't give you fellowship with Him, it gives you fellowship with sin...

The knowledge of righteousness, His righteousness if found in the law.
I think you are mistaken;
Romans 3:21
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Without the law, you have no paremeters...
Do I need any other parameters than Adam and Eve, or other than Abraham? Or to put it another way, what is it that you need to know, that you wouldn't know if you didn't have the law?

and in this world of good and evil, the law is the defining line.
Yes, but we are NOT of this world and are to NOT be like it :D
 
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tulc

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That text is not speaking about the 7th day Sabbath but about the yearly Sabbaths associated with the feast days. The Jews that did not accept Christ used to accuse the Jews who did because they stopped offering sacrifices and keeping feast days. They used to also judge the Gentiles. Its not about the 7th day Sabbath. God was the one who placed a special blessing on the Sabbath. Paul decided although he knew that these "high" days were all come to no significance then there was no point in keeping those days but because of the divisions these issues were creating he had to speak allot about judging others.
Really? How do you know that? Because I don't see that in there at all. :sorry:


The 7th day Sabbath does not mean a restriction of communion with God to only one day. You can treat every day like the Sabbath if you want.
Thanks I try to. :)

The Sabbath cannot be replaced with our communion with God or else that means that the nation of Israel only had communion with God on only one day. That is not true.
uhmmm you do know our (Christians) relationship isn't the same as the Nation of Israel, right? :scratch:
tulc(just curious) :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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An outrageous statement!

The truth, of course, is that 100% of christians do not keep the whole of the law...

:D
Hey holo. Have you been spying on me!?! ^_^

[You must spread some reputation around before giving it to holo and tulc again!]
 
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sunlover1

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the FOURTH COMMANDMENT: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.


Ex 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.


Ex 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Ex 31:14 " ‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Lev 23:3 " ‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.

Dt 5:12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.


Ne 13:17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, "What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day?


Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil."

Mt 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

************************************

So the Sabbath is Saturday.. or From Friday Evening till Saturday Evening.. :clap:

CLEARLY... God wants us to keep the Sabbath holy.. not Sunday which we worship on because of the believed ressurection of Jesus. :crossrc:

SO... why as Christians do we consistantly break one of the Ten Commandments and NOT preach this to our bretheren??

Why do we decide this commandment is negotiable? Did GOD change his mind about the Sabbath? Do we know better than GOD? :groupray:

We can say Jesus worked on the Sabbath.. but HE HEALED AND PREACHED on the Sabbath.. He wasn't doing carpentry!:preach:


With Love,
Jefell

- GETSHOOK . com

I'm under grace, not law.
I appreciate your good intentions,
and not that long ago, I tried to
'keep' the Sabbath myself.
God corrected me, but not before
I'd tried to put others under condemnation
for not 'keeping' the Sabbath.

sunlover
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Really? How do you know that? Because I don't see that in there at all. :sorry:

You have to look at the passage carefully and compare it with other parallel passages like 1 Corinthians 8.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Who is he that is weak in the faith? They are those who may have probably just heard about Christ and their faith in Jesus is weak. For a jew, it would mean that for him the sacrifices and ordinances will not have really ceased. He will still pay respect to feast days and still offer sacrifices. Christians who know that these things are void would condemn him.

Notice as well that the person that is weak keeps away from meat completely. It means that there must be a problem with the meat sold in the market that would cause him to stay away. And this person is weak in the faith of Christ and still believes in ceremonial power. Common practice in the markets would be to sell meat that were offered to idols or that were sacrifices. Before Christ, any meat that was sacrifices to God was ceremonially unclean because it would contain all the sins of the individual. Even the gentiles had that same belief with meat offered to their Gods. So this person who is weak in the faith of Jesus stays away from the market in fear that he may accidentally eat meat that was offered as sacrifice in the jewish community or offered to idols in the gentile community. So to avoid their conscience being defiled they would eat only herbs.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

As i said before the one man who esteemeth one day above another is also weak in the faith of Jesus. This person still deemed the feast days which were ceremonial sabbath days contained in feast such as the feast of tabernacles as still being holy. Paul in his own mind knows that this is not significant anymore but because of all the division that had started to take place in the church he urged the brethren to accept what each other believed and not to judge.

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

This message was specifically to gentile believes weak in the faith of Christ who have not overcome their belief of the existence of their own idols and gods.

1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Paul even says that when he is with such people he will abstain from things that they also abstain from as to prevent their conscience from being defiled. We can take hints from this passage to aid us in understanding Romans 14. There is another parallel as well.

1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the meat market, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Again Paul is referring directly to the gentile believers but this time to teach them. These are the same people who have been eating herbs and have stayed away from the meat market for fear that they might take meat that was once offered to idols. Paul is finally telling them that they have no need to fear over.
 
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BrightCandle

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I'm under grace, not law.
I appreciate your good intentions,
and not that long ago, I tried to
'keep' the Sabbath myself.
God corrected me, but not before
I'd tried to put others under condemnation
for not 'keeping' the Sabbath.

sunlover

Hey Sunlover,

Don't you think that Jesus could help you keep the Sabbath day holy and still be under grace?

I'm not trying to put anyone under condemnation, I'm just trying to share a forgotten truth.
Look at it this way, you are under grace now, but keep the other nine commandments don't you? I mean, you are not killing anyone or robbing banks, right? Apply the same principle to the keeping of the Sabbath. Jesus would not give mankind a commandment that could not be kept. The secret is to ask the Holy Spirit in its fullness, and then the keeping of all 10 of the commandments will not be a burden but a joy. After all they were designed for our happiness.
 
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tulc

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You have to look at the passage carefully and compare it with other parallel passages like 1 Corinthians 8.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Who is he that is weak in the faith? They are those who may have probably just heard about Christ and their faith in Jesus is weak. For a jew, it would mean that for him the sacrifices and ordinances will not have really ceased. He will still pay respect to feast days and still offer sacrifices. Christians who know that these things are void would condemn him.

Notice as well that the person that is weak keeps away from meat completely. It means that there must be a problem with the meat sold in the market that would cause him to stay away. And this person is weak in the faith of Christ and still believes in ceremonial power. Common practice in the markets would be to sell meat that were offered to idols or that were sacrifices. Before Christ, any meat that was sacrifices to God was ceremonially unclean because it would contain all the sins of the individual. Even the gentiles had that same belief with meat offered to their Gods. So this person who is weak in the faith of Jesus stays away from the market in fear that he may accidentally eat meat that was offered as sacrifice in the jewish community or offered to idols in the gentile community. So to avoid their conscience being defiled they would eat only herbs.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

As i said before the one man who esteemeth one day above another is also weak in the faith of Jesus. This person still deemed the feast days which were ceremonial sabbath days contained in feast such as the feast of tabernacles as still being holy. Paul in his own mind knows that this is not significant anymore but because of all the division that had started to take place in the church he urged the brethren to accept what each other believed and not to judge.

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

This message was specifically to gentile believes weak in the faith of Christ who have not overcome their belief of the existence of their own idols and gods.

1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Paul even says that when he is with such people he will abstain from things that they also abstain from as to prevent their conscience from being defiled. We can take hints from this passage to aid us in understanding Romans 14. There is another parallel as well.

1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the meat market, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Again Paul is referring directly to the gentile believers but this time to teach them. These are the same people who have been eating herbs and have stayed away from the meat market for fear that they might take meat that was once offered to idols. Paul is finally telling them that they have no need to fear over.

Uhmmm I'm sorry but that doesn't actually answer my question. :sorry: You say Paul is only talking about ceremonial Sabbaths, but where in the text do you see that except for you own desire for it to say that? See my point? :scratch: I also have a problem with the idea that you have to use another portion of Pauls writing to explain this part. Pauls letters were sent to specific groups, and there was (as far as I can see) no attempt by say the portion of the Church that was in Rome to gather the letters Paul sent to Corinth to explain what he meant by the letter he sent to them. As far as I can see? Paul was saying "Look, there are some things you're going to disagree on (ie meat sacrificed to idols, keeping the Sabbath etc.) but try and remember the thing that joins you together (being part of the Body of Christ) should be greater then the things that separate." :amen:
tulc(at least that's how I see it, that and $5.50 will buy you a good cup of coffee so take it how you will) ;)
 
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visionary

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What is the difference between..

Thou shalt not commit adultry
and
I tell you that if you look upon a woman with lust you have already committed adultry in your heart.

The light of the Holy Spirit shining upon the Ten Commandments.

Which is stricter and which do we have to keep.. the second one...by the grace of God and by the strength given through His Holy Spirit.

In light of the Holy Spirit, there is more than the plan writting of the law upon stone, and this enlarged understanding of the spirutual truth fround in the spiritual law of the new covenant with God in our hearts, is where we all have to be.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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He didn't give mankind any commandment, except the command to repent and believe.
Hi calluna. Also remembe the House of Judah was seperated from the House of Israel so in essence those of the house of Israel became as "gentiles". I do despize that word "gentiles" for some reason as I do being labeled "Protestant" by some. Ah well...........

Deut 28:28 And YHWH shall smite thee in-madness, and in-blindness, and in-astonishment of heart;
29 and thou become groping at noon-tides, as which the blind-one is groping in-gloom; and not thou will prosper ways of thee; and thou becomes yea, being extorted and being plundered all of the days, and there is no one saving. [Zech 12:4/Reve 16:10]

Reve 16:10 And the fifth one pours out the bowl of him on the throne of the wild-beast, and became the Kingdom of it having been Darkened and they gnawed the tongues of them out of the misery.
 
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calluna

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What is the difference between..

Thou shalt not commit adultry
and
I tell you that if you look upon a woman with lust you have already committed adultry in your heart.

The light of the Holy Spirit shining upon the Ten Commandments.
So was lust ok before Mosaic Law?
 
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tulc

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What is the difference between..

Thou shalt not commit adultry
and
I tell you that if you look upon a woman with lust you have already committed adultry in your heart.

The light of the Holy Spirit shining upon the Ten Commandments.

Which is stricter and which do we have to keep.. the second one...by the grace of God and by the strength given through His Holy Spirit.

In light of the Holy Spirit, there is more than the plan writting of the law upon stone, and this enlarged understanding of the spirutual truth fround in the spiritual law of the new covenant with God in our hearts, is where we all have to be.

I agree. :) That's one of the problems I have with the whole "We are required to keep the Sabbath!" idea. The Sabbath is (IMHO) reduced to a day of the week instead of something we are to have every day in our relationship with Jesus. :)
tulc(see my point?) :confused:
 
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calluna

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Hi calluna. Also remembe the House of Judah was seperated from the House of Israel so in essence those of the house of Israel became as "gentiles".
That does not mean that the 'lost' tribes were exempt, though it does mean that only a very tiny proportion of humanity observed Mosaic Law for very long.
 
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visionary

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So was lust ok before Mosaic Law?
Of course not, but the legalist were those of the letter of the law, and not the intent. Yeshua brought thre truth forward into brighter light.

A legalist demand the letter of the law be obeyed all the while break the spirit of the law... they lust, and declare they have never cheated on their wives.
 
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visionary

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I agree. :) That's one of the problems I have with the whole "We are required to keep the Sabbath!" idea. The Sabbath is (IMHO) reduced to a day of the week instead of something we are to have every day in our relationship with Jesus. :)
tulc(see my point?) :confused:
I believe it has to do with six days of labor... can't rest from the physical labor seven days a week. The Lord also wanted a day set aside for Him.. He chose the seventh day, santified it, and blessed it... now He is inviting you into His rest.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I believe it has to do with six days of labor... can't rest from the physical labor seven days a week. The Lord also wanted a day set aside for Him.. He chose the seventh day, santified it, and blessed it... now He is inviting you into His rest.
So why on Saturday as the SDA's and Messianics observe :confused:
 
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visionary

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So why on Saturday as the SDA's and Messianics observe :confused:
Because God chose that day... remember Him testing the Israelites before they even got to Mount Sinai.. to see if they would obey His law or not.
 
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