Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[tulc]

Therefore repent while there is still time after all you would not want to be known as "the least "

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called "the least" in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven.

Wouldn't you rather have the Lord point to you and say you are "great".

well...I could live with "Hey Peter, go ahead at let that guy in, what could it hurt?"
tulc(what can I say, I'm saved by grace)

 

[holo]

Is Jesus God? Yes. Who gave to mankind the Ten Commandments? God. Did Jesus keep the Ten Commandments when He came to earth as a Man/God? Yes. Are we as professed followers of Jesus to "walk as He walked"? Yes.

If so, then why are you only keeping (not that you're really keeping them, though) the ten commandments and not the rest of the law like Jesus did? And why don't you teach in synagogues and heal the sick etc etc...

Think about it.

 

[holo]

Wrong. Any human being is either keeping the law, or breaking the law at any given moment in time.

Are you keeping it? Do you know anybody who do?

A true Christian keeps the law

But that's not what the bible says. The bible says we are DEAD to the law and that the law, like a diseased husband, has no claim on us. And furthermore, because we are NOT under the law, we are consequently NOT slaves to sin any longer.

by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, and if because of human weakness he falls, and repents of his sin, that is where Jesus covers his sin with his blood.

That's not grace, that's just mercy, like a safety net.

Your description of your Christian experience will only lead you to the fatal deception of "cheap grace", that is a "cloak for sin".

Speak for yourself. Maybe if you realized that you're righteous, you would go straight out and sin. I wouldn't, and don't. On the contrary, grace has set me FREE from sin. It's actually you who are preaching "cheap grace", a grace which is nothing but a safety net when you fall, a grace that doesn't actually do anything or change you into a better person. It's a diluted gospel, and it's the reason there's such an abundance of sin and bondage in the church today - people are still preaching the law, and the law is still the power of sin.

 

[BrightCandle]

Aren't you limiting it to a purely physical thing looking at it that way? It's then a command to be kept instead of something a lot deeper?
tulc(just something that struck me)

It's rest in Jesus and rest from secular labor as well. They go hand in hand.

 

[BrightCandle]

uhmmm you mean love the Lord and our neighbor? Yep I can agree with that.
Do you mean I'm supposed to become a first century Jew living in Israel? No, I don't think that's what that means.
tulc(thinks the first portion is the correct one but has no problem if you want to do the second one)

Come on tulc, you know what I mean, stop playing word games to make yourself look smart.
Of course we are not going to go to Israel and become Jews, and we don't need to, you can start right now by keeping the Sabbath day holy in whatever country you live in, just like Jesus did when he was on earth.

 

[BrightCandle]

Ahhh! So we DO have to keep the Law in order to have a right standing with God? hmmmm you mean if someone believes different from you they're wrong and just looking for an excuse for their sin?
tulc(suspects that's not right)

No, that is not what I said. God knows our hearts and the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. The
Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law. I'm just saying that God knows our heart condition 24/7. Therefore, and only those who are holy and pure will taken to heaven. If we buy into the "cheap grace" type of Gospel that you and "holo" have purchased you will find in the end that you have fallen for the sophistry of the devil.

 

[BrightCandle]

Speak for yourself. Maybe if you realized that you're righteous, you would go straight out and sin. I wouldn't, and don't. On the contrary, grace has set me FREE from sin.

Wrong. The Bible says in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. . . "

Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments", therefore if you know what that means
and you choose to ignore it them, or some of them, then you are sinning plain and simple. You can't give the lame excuse that you didn't know which day the Sabbath was, or no one ever told what the Ten Commandments were.

 

[tulc]

Come on tulc, you know what I mean, stop playing word games to make yourself look smart.

uhmmm I'm really not trying to make myself "look smart" I ask things so I can understand better what someone means.

Of course we are not going to go to Israel and become Jews, and we don't need to, you can start right now by keeping the Sabbath day holy in whatever country you live in, just like Jesus did when he was on earth.

orrrrr I can keep plodding along, doing what I feel the Lord would have for me to do to the best of the ability He's given me.
tulc(just a plodder I guess)

 

[tulc]

No, that is not what I said. God knows our hearts and the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. The
Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law. I'm just saying that God knows our heart condition 24/7. Therefore, and only those who are holy and pure will taken to heaven. If we buy into the "cheap grace" type of Gospel that you and "holo" have purchased you will find in the end that you have fallen for the sophistry of the devil.

I'm sorry, but how does our believing differently from you translate into us being a "cheap grace" type of Christian? (what ever that means)
tulc(not a great believer in assigning labels to my brothers and sisters simply because they disagree with me)

 

[PROPHECYKID]

orrrrr I can keep plodding along, doing what I feel the Lord would have for me to do to the best of the ability He's given me.
tulc(just a plodder I guess)

What you feel might not be what is best that is why God does not leave it up to us to decide what he wants us to do. The bible filled with his holy words tells us.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by BrightCandle
Come on tulc, you know what I mean, stop playing word games to make yourself look smart.

I assume that is why Christians are here, to make themselves look smart

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081974/usercomments?start=10

Movie "Absence of Malice"

- Mr Gallagher, are you that smart?
- You're damn right he is.
I'll tell you something, you're a smart fella. Don't get too smart. I'm pretty smart myself.
Everybody in the room is smart.

 

[tulc]

What you feel might not be what is best that is why God does not leave it up to us to decide what he wants us to do. The bible filled with his holy words tells us.

Except you don't seem to like the scriptures I use.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. (emph. added)

It seems Paul feels we can decide for ourselves.
tulc(just a thought)

 

[fritz300]

I'm sure Paul does feel that way, assumeing that we woldn't be sinning. Not keeping the Sabbath or eating unclean foods would be sin.

Despite the fact that Paul is horribly misunderstood and misquoted, I don't understand why people hold the words of Paul over the very words of Yeshua Himself or the Torah of Moshe?

Why is a letter held over the Torah itself, when it should be the foundation of all believers faith?

Regards,
Zak

 

[NorrinRadd]

I'm sure Paul does feel that way, assumeing that we woldn't be sinning. Not keeping the Sabbath or eating unclean foods would be sin.

Despite the fact that Paul is horribly misunderstood and misquoted, I don't understand why people hold the words of Paul over the very words of Yeshua Himself or the Torah of Moshe?

I missed the part where someone was holding the words of Paul "over" those of "Yeshua."

Why is a letter held over the Torah itself, when it should be the foundation of all believers faith?

For all of us, and especially those of us who are not of Jewish background, why would we view the Torah as applicable? The idea that the recorded inspired words of one man of God -- Moses -- are somehow inherently above those of a later man of God -- Paul -- only holds if one starts with that assumption in the first place.

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
Wrong. The Bible says in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. . . "

Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments", therefore if you know what that means
and you choose to ignore it them, or some of them, then you are sinning plain and simple. You can't give the lame excuse that you didn't know which day the Sabbath was, or no one ever told what the Ten Commandments were.


The person who *claimed* that they didn't condemn anyone for not observing the Sabbath ( as *they* define it ) have , once again , associated refusal to observe it as a sin and that , if they continue to do so , there is no longer a sacrifice for them .

That is condemnation - clear and simple .

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
Hi. This is one reason Orthodox Jews and Messianics are at odds with each other.

In fact an Orthodox Jew actually started a thread on the Picture I have in my Siggy but I couldn't explain it to her because they do not believe JESUS is their Messiah, nor did He accomplish ALL THINGS as they expect Him to. Thoughts

I found the picture to be very provocative ( I liked it ) . I would have liked it even better if it had a bible instead of a scroll as many christians look at the collection of the Scriptures in a far worse manner than the most Orthodox Jew .

 

[holo]

Wrong. The Bible says in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. . . "

Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments", therefore if you know what that means
and you choose to ignore it them, or some of them, then you are sinning plain and simple. You can't give the lame excuse that you didn't know which day the Sabbath was, or no one ever told what the Ten Commandments were.

The thing is, I don't believe Jesus' commandment to me is "keep the ten commandments". In fact, it would be SIN for me to KEEP the sabbath, since that would go against my conscience and conviction, just like it would be sin for some people to eat meat or drink wine - they can't do it with a pure heart, in faith. For me, trying to observe the sabbath or keep any other part of the law would be a betrayal against Christ and the freedom I have in Him. But if you are, as Paul says, "fully convinced in your own heart" that you are obliged to observe the sabbath in one way or another, do so! Keep it holy unto God, just like I keep every day holy unto God.

If you go about demanding that everybody else keep the sabbath according to your conviction, or if I go about demanding that nobody keep it according to mine, we both sin and miss the point completely.

 

[holo]

Despite the fact that Paul is horribly misunderstood and misquoted, I don't understand why people hold the words of Paul over the very words of Yeshua Himself or the Torah of Moshe?

It's not a matter of holding Paul's words "above" the words of Jesus, it's a matter of dividing the scriptures properly.

The key is: the new covenant started when Jesus died, not when He was born. So many people are trying to drag stuff from the OLD covenant, including some(!) of the things Jesus taught in the old covenant, into the new one.

For example, Jesus said plainly that if you want eternal life, you'll have to give all your possessions to the poor. He said it. It's true. But still, it doesn't apply to us. Why? Because we are in the NEW covenant, where we have eternal life because we believe, not because we perform. That was the whole point of what Jesus said - the law was given to show people that you can't make yourself approvable to God. But the jews twisted it and made it appear that you could, just like most christians are doing now.

 

[NorrinRadd]

It's not a matter of holding Paul's words "above" the words of Jesus, it's a matter of dividing the scriptures properly.

The key is: the new covenant started when Jesus died, not when He was born. So many people are trying to drag stuff from the OLD covenant, including some(!) of the things Jesus taught in the old covenant, into the new one.

For example, Jesus said plainly that if you want eternal life, you'll have to give all your possessions to the poor. He said it. It's true. But still, it doesn't apply to us. Why? Because we are in the NEW covenant, where we have eternal life because we believe, not because we perform. That was the whole point of what Jesus said - the law was given to show people that you can't make yourself approvable to God. But the jews twisted it and made it appear that you could, just like most christians are doing now.

I think that "rightly dividing" Scripture becomes a little dicey during and shortly after the Incarnation. While on earth, Jesus apparently gave women "divorce" rights equal to those of men (Mark 10:12), thereby altering OT Law. He directly overturned the food laws, at least according to Mark's parenthetical comment in 7:19. He said a time was coming, and in fact had already arrived, when people would worship in "Spirit and truth."

I don't think you're saying we should ignore all Jesus taught because He taught under a different covenant, but I want to make sure.

 

[tulc]

I'm sure Paul does feel that way, assumeing that we woldn't be sinning. Not keeping the Sabbath or eating unclean foods would be sin.

So when he says "Keep it, don't keep it, but whichever you choose, do it in faith." what he means is "Keep the Sabbath or you're sinning."?

Despite the fact that Paul is horribly misunderstood and misquoted, I don't understand why people hold the words of Paul over the very words of Yeshua Himself or the Torah of Moshe?

...so the same Lord who inspired those others didn't inspire Paul?

Why is a letter held over the Torah itself, when it should be the foundation of all believers faith?

Because when I got born again I became a Christian not Jewish? I believe I can learn things from the Law, but I'm not bound by the Law. See the difference?

Regards,
Zak

tulc(and to you also!)