Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[WailingWall]

No, they were given to Israel only, and not "as a blessing" but to make sin exceedingly sinful, to kill us all. Furthermore, the law and prophets had their time up until John. And the new covenant has nothing at all to do with the law, and everything to do with the blood of Christ

Rev. 22:12-14
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

makarios,

mak-ar'-ee-os; a prolonged form of the poetical makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off :- blessed, happy (× -ier).

You know what city is being talked about here Holo? Is the city for "Israel" only? I think not.

 

[WailingWall]

and yet christ came to fulfill the law... hence, he didn't come to abolish it

That so very true ERM. So when the bible says Jesus fulfilled the law. What does this mean, according to the scriptures?

MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

What did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law? Did he mean he came to do away with the law or make the law even greater? First he says he has not come to destoy the law. OK. Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass. I know the earth is still here, so according to Jesus we are still under the law. And when we look at verses 21 and 22 we can see how Jesus fulfilled the law. He tells us not only to keep the letter of the law (thou shall not kill) but we are also to keep the spirit of the law (don’t even get angry).

MATT.5 [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Again Jesus fills full another one of the 10 commandments. Adultry (the letter of the law) and lust of the eyes (the spirit of the law).

ROMANS 7 [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual. The letter of the law is so much easier to keep than the spirit of the law. Jesus magnified the law to a spiritual realm. And if you sit and think about it you will realize you cant keep the spirit of the law if you are not first walking in the letter of the law.

ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Isaiah 42 is speaking of Jesus. Just read the whole chapter. Theres no question about it. A prophecy fulfilled! The above scripture says Jesus would come and will magnify the law. The new testament bears this out. Does magnify mean do away with or does it mean....magnify? He made the commandments even greater by telling us we are to walk in spirit of the law.

ROMANS 7 [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6]BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.

Jesus magnified the 10 commandments to a spiritual level. But as ive said before, theres no way to walk in the spirit of the law without first walking in the letter of the law. It just cant be done.

 

[WailingWall]

and yet christ came to fulfill the law... hence, he didn't come to abolish it. you can not break the law and never fulfill it (hence the love part).

Whoops...The love part

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

JOHN 15 [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS, AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

ALL YA NEED IS LOVE

And the Word tells us HOW to love one another

KEEP THE 10 COMMANDMENTS!

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
Real weak arguement. So your saying the 10 commandments ONLY pertained to those who went to Mt Gerizin and to Mt Ebal. Im afraid you couldnt sell that to anyone. And how do i lie by simply posting scripture. I didnt write the book. I see you and your book cant bring yourselves to even say the word "commandments". Thats a shame.

Ah , the argument of the liar . You make the claim that a passage was given directly to *me* but say that the same passage was not for you .

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote:
REVELATION 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Once again , a lie . This says nothing of the Law nor the 10 . It discusses what *Jesus* commands .

Even if one could accept the twisting of this passage , it does not say that those who do not keep the Law will not obtain those same things . It does not mention that *I* received the Law by the hand of Moses - which you claim .


Yet , for those not paying attention ...
WW has once again claimed that observing the Law earns salvation by one's own efforts . The passage discusses salvation .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Did you ever try writing the code for quoting? [ quote ]post[ /quote ] only without the spaces?

yes , but I will attempt again . They are generated by the quote button .

edited - looks like the quote function does a little more than just placing those commands . I will see what the difference is . thanks .

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
Where does Ge 2 say that?

It doesn't . If it did , the Lord would not need to explain it in the Law - everyone would know . And , we would know , as well - without any aid of the Scriptures . But , everytime one hears about it being a command , someone quotes the Scriptures which came only at the time of Moses .

Let us look at the passage , shall we ? ...

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.(NIV)

Notice - no mention of His resting every 7th day - only on that one particular day .
Notice - no mention of His wanting or having humans partake of it with Him - only that "*HE* rested"
Notice - no mention of it being a command for humans to observe it every seven days .
Notice - no mention of the humans commanded to pass it on to other generations .

Even though none of those things were mentioned , the Sabbath-violators insist that they are mentioned . Are Christians not about *truth* ? Why are people using lies to manipulate people into doing things ? Even if what they say *is* true , why do they resort to all of the manipulations of the truth and outright falsehoods to convince others ?


Also , the Sabbath law cannot have happened before Moses because *THE* Sabbath - the Passover - only occured at the time of Moses . There is no mention of the Passover Sabbath in the writing that humans call "Genesis" ( one would have to wait for the sequel ) .

Now , allow us to go back to the Sabbath command :

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [a]

14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' " 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.(NIV)

*Twice* in one passage - *twice* - A sign between the Lord and the Israelites - not all of mankind - the Israelites and their descendants . If it was to all mankind , it wouldn't be a sign to anyone - everyone would be included . Also , *twice* He states that those who desecrate the Sabbaths *must* be put to death . Are those who worship the Sabbath obeying this part of the Sabbath command ? No . They defecate on the very command they push .

 

[holo]

REVELATION 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

makarios,

mak-ar'-ee-os; a prolonged form of the poetical makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off :- blessed, happy (× -ier).

Well..because you dont like the old testament scripture that blesses those who keep the 10 commandments i thought id see how ya like this new testament scripture that says the same thing. Supremely blessed. Cant get any better than that.

And these commandments in question are the ten commandments, because...?

 

[holo]

Rev. 22:12-14
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

makarios,

mak-ar'-ee-os; a prolonged form of the poetical makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off :- blessed, happy (× -ier).

You know what city is being talked about here Holo? Is the city for "Israel" only? I think not.

Again, why do you figure these verses are talking about the ten commandments?

BTW, do you keep the commandments? And are you blessed because of it? And is that why you have right to the tree of life?

 

[WailingWall]

Again, why do you figure these verses are talking about the ten commandments?

Its very simple

LUKE 18 [20] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

The translated word for commandments in the above scripture is “entole”. As you can see its the 10 commandments. No doubt about it.

MATTHEW 19 [16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


The translated word for commandments in Matthew 19 is “entole”. Again the 10 commandments. You do recognize them dont you? Thou shalt not steal, murder, adultry and so on

1 JOHN 5 [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The translated word for commandments in 1 John 5 is “entole”. Same exact word used in Luke and again in Matthew. Yup, Gods very own ten commandments.

HEBREWS 11 [22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave COMMANDMENT concerning his bones.

entellomai,;from Greek 1722 (en) and the base of Greek 5056 (telos); to enjoin :- (give) charge, (give) command (-ments), injoin. Not the 10 commandments, but a simple command.

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, keep my COMMANDMENTS. [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

These commandments are translated from the word “entole”. Same “entole” you find in Luke and again in Matthew. Gods 10 commandments.

Rev. 22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Yup. You guessed it. The word for commandments in Rev.22 is...

entole,

en-tol-ay'; from Greek 1781 (entellomai); injunction, i.e. an authoritative prescription :- commandment, precept.

Same exact word used in Luke 18 and Matt.19. Gods very own 10 commandments

 

[Meshavrischika]

Hebrews 8:10-13
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hello ElsanRandiMom
We all know that ALL do not know the Lord. There will come a time when ALL shall know the Lord but it is not yet. The scriptures say that the 1st covenant is waxing old and is ready to vanish [verse 13]. It has not yet vanished but its getting ready to and at the time it does vanish ALL shall know the Lord.

Isaiah 24:3-6
The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word. [4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

At this time (Day of the Lord) after all thats said is done. The few that are left will know the Lord.

Some new testament scripture to back that up

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Ive tried to leave my words short so as not to be called a liar again.

interesting. thx.

this brings to mind though that obedience is not the same as it used to be as well. i think that's were alot of disconnect is.

 

[holo]

Its very simple

LUKE 18 [20] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

The translated word for commandments in the above scripture is “entole”. As you can see its the 10 commandments. No doubt about it.

OK, but that's not at all what I asked about. I asked why you know/assume/figure that the verses from Revelation refer to the ten commandments (and why they don't refer to any other commandment God has given). Does "entole" mean "the ten commandments"?

I also asked if you do keep the commandments. Do you?

MATTHEW 19 [16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


The translated word for commandments in Matthew 19 is “entole”. Again the 10 commandments. You do recognize them dont you? Thou shalt not steal, murder, adultry and so on

Yes, of course. Those are the things YOU would have to DO to have eternal life. So the question is, again, do you do these things? And do you have eternal life because you are doing these things?

(The gospel, unlike the old covenant, which Jesus was teaching on here, is not based on our performance, but on His performance.)

 

[ticker]

I can't believe it....we're actually on 50 pages with this "Sabbath or no Sabbath" topic....wow.

And I'm convinced...holo is a freak of nature. His endurance with this stuff (...even though with this thread he started about halfway in) is becoming a thing of legend. I don't know on how many occasions I've seen him generously take the time on the threads of this sort to fully explain the great truth about Grace vs. the Sabbath/the 10 Commandments/the Law etc... He's a gospel machine!

 

[holo]

I can't believe it....we're actually on 50 pages with this "Sabbath or no Sabbath" topic....wow.

And I'm convinced...holo is a freak of nature. His endurance with this stuff (...even though with this thread he started about halfway in) is becoming a thing of legend. I don't know on how many occasions I've seen him generously take the time on the threads of this sort to fully explain the great truth about Grace vs. the Sabbath/the 10 Commandments/the Law etc... He's a gospel machine!

Hehe! Thanks, but to be completely honest, I'm often frustrated with myself for trying to explain the gospel all the time. The gospel isn't a riddle to be explained, it's a power of salvation to be preached! To be proclaimed, shared. You know. I think that if I was first and foremost concerned with preaching the gospel, I'd go to those who have never heard, rather than trying to fine-tune those who already are saved (legalists are saved, they just don't know how saved they are ). And as for myself, it wasn't debate that made me see the fullness of God's grace (there's still more to see, I'm sure), but an emotional and spiritual and religious and utter breakdown. Oh well. Peace.

 

[NorrinRadd]

... (legalists are saved, they just don't know how saved they are ). ...

Honestly, I wonder about this sometimes. In regard to Judaistic legalism, Paul warned of being "fallen from grace" and "cut off" from Christ. That doesn't sound very "saved" to me.

 

[holo]

Honestly, I wonder about this sometimes. In regard to Judaistic legalism, Paul warned of being "fallen from grace" and "cut off" from Christ. That doesn't sound very "saved" to me.

True, but I think that the grace of God covers even legalism

We all agree that apart from grace, we wouldn't be saved at all. The difference is just how much grace we think we need, or the ratio of grace/works we need to be saved. God wants us all to be saved. Personally, I was saved for years without even knowing it.

 

[calluna]

Its very simple

LUKE 18 [20] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

The translated word for commandments in the above scripture is “entole”. As you can see its the 10 commandments. No doubt about it.

MATTHEW 19 [16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


The translated word for commandments in Matthew 19 is “entole”. Again the 10 commandments. You do recognize them dont you? Thou shalt not steal, murder, adultry and so on

1 JOHN 5 [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The translated word for commandments in 1 John 5 is “entole”. Same exact word used in Luke and again in Matthew. Yup, Gods very own ten commandments.

No 'ten' in view. That number would give only the righteousness of the Pharisees, anyway. The Decalogue is a busted flush, along with laying off prawns.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Exactly, and the knowledge of good and evil does just that. The law is the knowledge of good and evil.

If God takes away our knowledge of good and evil then we cannot serve him out of choice. That is why he placed the tree of KGE in Eden. Adam and Eve didn't request for such a tree but God placed it there so that their loyalty could be tested. God's response to the sin problem is not taking away our knowledge of sin. It is not taking away the law.

It's the same age-old principle: the more forbidden it is, the more tempting it becomes...

To a carnal man not a spiritual man. The carnal man would sin even if its only 1 law.

The law demanded justice, and if justice was to be served, the woman would have to be punished. But Jesus was more gracious than fair.

No Jesus was fair, he just didn't agree with the civil laws of Moses since they did not display love.

Yes, they thought having the knowledge of good and evil was a good thing to have.

No. Moses knew the law before it was given. Adam ate the fruit because of Eve without any knowledge of new knowledge. Eve was tempted by the devil, and deceived to believe that things would be better. They didn't have a meeting with God and request good and evil.

The law is good, and it looks just as tempting as the forbidden fruit. Who doesn't want knowledge of good and evil? Just take a look at the forums here and see how many "is this sin" and "is this OK" threads there are. Israel was no different. They even said "everything the Lord has said, we will do" when they heard the commandments. Even Christians today are asking for the law, not realizing while it looks so tempting, it only ends up being an instrument of death.

As I said before the law is not an instrument of death to the spiritual man but only to the carnal man. You blame the law for sin instead of the individuals who sin. The law is not going to be thrown in the lake of fire but individuals are, they are guilty. Yielding to God's spirit will prevent a man from sin so the law cannot have a bad effect on such a person. If you think God's law is an instrument of death to everybody then the law cannot be holy just and good.

But the whole idea of "breaking the law" is completely meaningless to the believer, because the believer is DEAD. If Adam screwed it for us by eating the forbidden fruit, HOW MUCH MORE shall not Jesus rectify us! It doesn't make any sense to ask a dead man not to break the law. He can't break it any more than he can keep it.

What we need to address is the meaning of being dead to the law. You have that to mean that the law has absolutely no effect on those who are dead to the law but that is not the meaning. If so then why would the carnal man who is not subject to the law of God be condemned by it? If Christians are dead to the law looking at it by you interpretation, why does God write his law on our hearts in the new covenant. And if Christians are dead to the law, by you interpretation why do the saints keep the commandments? Regardless of what you believe those commandments are shouldn't they be dead to it so then as you explained shouldn't they not be able to keep them. The fact is that being dead to the law really means being dead to sin. Paul seems to focus on the law at first but as he went on he explained that the problem was not the law but the sin. Sin is the problem and not the law. The Law was around and Jesus did not sin.

I don't think that perspective is correct - Adam and Eve didn't become naked when they ate the fruit. They were already naked. Their nudity wasn't an issue whatsoever, until they learned about right and wrong. And the law is basically just the offspring of that forbidden fruit, and it will do the same to whoever keeps eating of it.

I didn't think you meant naked in the physical sense. Sorry about that. Why don't you compare the law to the law and not the law to sin. When God told them not to eat of the forbidden fruit it was a command thus it is the firstfruits of the law. They broke it and ate of the fruit so the forbidden fruit must represent sin and not the law. Eating of the fruit was the result of breaking the command by God. Sin is as a result of breaking the law of God.

But the law is the instrument by which the devil can even tempt us in the first place. Without the commandment, sin is DEAD. Without the law, satan is disarmed.

If you are not tempted then you cannot make a choice. If God didn't want us to be tempted them he would have destroyed the devil long ago.

I understand your point about love making you "keep the law", but it doesn't really - because you can't keep (or break) a law that you're not under. God doesn't ask or expect you to keep the law. He expects His own son to simply express Himself in and through you. That's a VERY different thing! It's not like Jesus went around trying to keep the demands of the law. Heck, He didn't even try to do His best! He simply kept His eyes on the Father.

2 things.

1. I didn't say that love causes you to keep the law but the bible said so, you are not agreeing with the bible if you say that it doesn't really.

2. You need to redefine for me what you believe it means to be under the law.

The only way a carnal man could hope to please God would be by keeping the law. But we are called to NOT be like this world; they have to do their best to keep the law, we simply abide in Christ (and He in us). In other words, the law has nothing to do with our life anymore. Christ IS our life.

No. The only way a carnal man can please God is by accepting him in his life. Without God in your life what sense is keeping the law. The law will not save or transform a carnal man only God can.

 

[holo]

If God takes away our knowledge of good and evil then we cannot serve him out of choice.

The choice is to have the knowledge of rightoeusness, or to have the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve weren't will-less robots. God saw that it was good.

the tree of KGE

That sounds like a grunge band, or some sort of application for Linux

Adam and Eve didn't request for such a tree but God placed it there so that their loyalty could be tested. God's response to the sin problem is not taking away our knowledge of sin. It is not taking away the law.

I think it IS taking away the law, or rather, to let us DIE to the law. Apart from the commandment, sin is dead. So we must somehow be removed from the law, from the knowledge of good and evil.

That probably sounds kind of theoretical. Let me take an example from everyday life:
Let's say I want to be the best husband my wife can imagine. I meet some other beautiful girl who's interested in me, but I'm determined to Do The Right Thing and keep my promises etc, and besides I've read all kinds of books and advice that a husband shall not fool around with other women. So I get home and I can proudly declare that this gorgeous woman tried to get me to bed, and it was so tempting, but since I'm Doing The Right Thing, I turned her down. Go me!

OR

This woman approaches me, but since my mind is only on my wife and how beautiful she is and how much I love her, and not on some sort of rule that demands that I stay faithful, I don't even consider fooling around with anybody else.

The law, in effects, says "look here! Doesn't this look delicious! Don't you wish you could enjoy this and that!" The law makes you look on yourself and on sin. But when you look at the Lord, you won't be concerned with what is right or wrong to do. The more you look on Him, the more you become like Him.

To a carnal man not a spiritual man. The carnal man would sin even if its only 1 law.

I agree. But then again the law is for the carnal man, not for the righteous.

No. Moses knew the law before it was given. Adam ate the fruit because of Eve without any knowledge of new knowledge. Eve was tempted by the devil, and deceived to believe that things would be better. They didn't have a meeting with God and request good and evil.

But they did know their eyes would be opened. Of course, they didn't know what they would get to know... but, you know...

OK, that got complicated...

I think the point of the story of Eden is that God allows us all to choose - we can either try to live according to the knowledge of good and evil, or we can decide to simply know Him.

As I said before the law is not an instrument of death to the spiritual man but only to the carnal man. You blame the law for sin instead of the individuals who sin. The law is not going to be thrown in the lake of fire but individuals are, they are guilty. Yielding to God's spirit will prevent a man from sin so the law cannot have a bad effect on such a person. If you think God's law is an instrument of death to everybody then the law cannot be holy just and good.

The law is good, but it has a specific purpose - to make sin exceedingly sinful and to kill the sinner. I don't blame the law for sin, but again, without the law, sin is dead. One can't use the law for anything but what God gave it to do. You can't somehow use the law to make neither a sinner nor a saint sin any less. The righteous person has nothing to do with the law in the first place. The law doesn't apply to us. But if I try to apply it, the law will do what the law has always done - it becomes the power of sin yet again. For example, I don't normally think about porn, and porn isn't even an issue for me - that is, until I make some sort of law for myself, like "I shall not watch porn". What happens then? I start thinking about porn! And the more I try to live according to that commandment, the more I think about it, and it's just a matter of time before I give in. Yes, it was I who chose to do it, and the commandment was good, but yet again, it turned out to be the power of sin.

The less concerned I am with keeping some law, and the more concerned I am with the simple fact that I AM righteous, the more righteously I will behave.

What we need to address is the meaning of being dead to the law. You have that to mean that the law has absolutely no effect on those who are dead to the law but that is not the meaning. If so then why would the carnal man who is not subject to the law of God be condemned by it?

The carnal man IS subject to the law. That is, the jews were given the written law, but we gentiles had the "demands of the law" written in our hearts as well. So we were all guilty.

If Christians are dead to the law looking at it by you interpretation, why does God write his law on our hearts in the new covenant.

I don't think the law in question here are the ten commandments. The ten commandments are the ministry of death, and God obviously doesn't want the ministry of death in our hearts. That's what we had in our hearts BEFORE we were born again.

And if Christians are dead to the law, by you interpretation why do the saints keep the commandments? Regardless of what you believe those commandments are shouldn't they be dead to it so then as you explained shouldn't they not be able to keep them.

I believe that I, as a believer, born again, saint, saved person, is commanded simply to believe on Him whom He has sent. That's all. That's not a "law" that I'm "dead" to. The law, again, is for the wicked and ungodly, not for the saints.

The fact is that being dead to the law really means being dead to sin.

Yes, but that's because dying to sin is a consequence of being dead to the law.

Paul seems to focus on the law at first but as he went on he explained that the problem was not the law but the sin. Sin is the problem and not the law. The Law was around and Jesus did not sin.

True, but as we know, He is the only one to ever do that.

I didn't think you meant naked in the physical sense. Sorry about that. Why don't you compare the law to the law and not the law to sin. When God told them not to eat of the forbidden fruit it was a command thus it is the firstfruits of the law.

Well then let us KEEP that commandment!
And NOT eat of the forbidden fruit! Trying to live according to the law=eating the forbidden fruit.

If you are not tempted then you cannot make a choice.

True, but the real problem isn't that SIN is so tempting. It's the knowledge of good and evil that is so tempting. I'm still tempted by it, even though I am really dead to it. Even though I'm restored back to the condition Adam was in before he fell, I still get tempted by learing about good and evil.

2 things.

1. I didn't say that love causes you to keep the law but the bible said so, you are not agreeing with the bible if you say that it doesn't really.

Love doesn't make me keep the law, because love simply isn't concerned with the law. When I love, I do good to people simply because I love them. It's not like I love somebody, and therefore I go to the law to figure out how I should treat them.

I think the point is that when you love, you obviously don't steal or murder or covet etc etc. You could say the same about most earthly laws, too: I don't steal from people, French and Jamaican laws demand that you don't steal, therefore I keep/fulfill French and Jamaican laws... but of course, I'm not at all concerned with how I measure up to French and Jamaican laws, because I live in Norway.

2. You need to redefine for me what you believe it means to be under the law.

I believe it means to be "under" the knowledge of good and evil. Just like children; they can't do anything wrong until they aquire some sort of knowledge that "this is good and that is bad". Until then, they simply express themselves, and they do what they see their parents do - and that's the whole point: God Himself is our father! We aren't to try and comply with some list over dos and don'ts, but simply keep our eyes on Dad. Even Jesus did that! He said He didn't do anything of Himself, He simply did what He saw His Father do. The more a child looks at his parents, the more he will act like them.

No. The only way a carnal man can please God is by accepting him in his life. Without God in your life what sense is keeping the law. The law will not save or transform a carnal man only God can.

True.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The choice is to have the knowledge of rightoeusness, or to have the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve weren't will-less robots. God saw that it was good.

Can we choose not to have the knowledge of Good and Evil when there is God and the devil.

I think it IS taking away the law, or rather, to let us DIE to the law. Apart from the commandment, sin is dead. So we must somehow be removed from the law, from the knowledge of good and evil.

We cannot be removed from the knowledge of Good and Evil or else we would be robots. We would not have an option to choose between the two. Even when Adam and Eve did not know good and evil God placed the tree there so that they still can make a choice to obey him. Why should he want to take away our knowledge of good and evil to prevent us from committing sin. Isn't his spirit good enough? isn't grace good enough?

The law, in effects, says "look here! Doesn't this look delicious! Don't you wish you could enjoy this and that!" The law makes you look on yourself and on sin. But when you look at the Lord, you won't be concerned with what is right or wrong to do. The more you look on Him, the more you become like Him.

The command not to eat of the fruit did not tempt Eve. The devil did. The devil is the one that makes sin look good. The devil is the accuser of the brethren. The law does not make you look on sin but the devil does. The law does not tempt the devil tempts because he knows you know wrong from right. But knowing wrong from right does not tempt.

I agree. But then again the law is for the carnal man, not for the righteous.

I rather take into consideration what the entire bible says on a whole rather than one verse.

I think the point of the story of Eden is that God allows us all to choose - we can either try to live according to the knowledge of good and evil, or we can decide to simply know Him.

If you know him you would keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If Adam and Eve kept Gods command then death would not come upon man. Death came not by the command but by violation of the command. Death comes not by the law but by violation of the law.

The law is good, but it has a specific purpose - to make sin exceedingly sinful and to kill the sinner. I don't blame the law for sin, but again, without the law, sin is dead. One can't use the law for anything but what God gave it to do. You can't somehow use the law to make neither a sinner nor a saint sin any less. The righteous person has nothing to do with the law in the first place. The law doesn't apply to us. But if I try to apply it, the law will do what the law has always done - it becomes the power of sin yet again. For example, I don't normally think about porn, and porn isn't even an issue for me - that is, until I make some sort of law for myself, like "I shall not watch porn". What happens then? I start thinking about porn! And the more I try to live according to that commandment, the more I think about it, and it's just a matter of time before I give in. Yes, it was I who chose to do it, and the commandment was good, but yet again, it turned out to be the power of sin.

But why make a commitment to refrain from doing something that you don't do. You only should tell yourself "I shall not watch porn", if you keep doing it. And the law can only "kill" a sinner not saved by grace.

The carnal man IS subject to the law.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The carnal man has a carnal mind. The mind and the man is synonymous.

I don't think the law in question here are the ten commandments. The ten commandments are the ministry of death, and God obviously doesn't want the ministry of death in our hearts. That's what we had in our hearts BEFORE we were born again.

Where did you get that theory? If the mind and the heart is the same then didn't Paul say that with his mind he serves the law of God. And plus in the new covenant God says that he will write his laws on our hearts. If it was there before we were born again then why write it.

Well then let us KEEP that commandment!
And NOT eat of the forbidden fruit! Trying to live according to the law=eating the forbidden fruit.

Eating the forbidden fruit is not the law but the sin that results from the command to not eat it. Violate that law and it leads to death.

True, but the real problem isn't that SIN is so tempting. It's the knowledge of good and evil that is so tempting. I'm still tempted by it, even though I am really dead to it. Even though I'm restored back to the condition Adam was in before he fell, I still get tempted by learing about good and evil.

Not true. It is the lusts of the flesh that causes us to be tempted. Not the knowledge of what is right and wrong. If i want a car and my neighbor has one then i will be tempted to steal it because I want it. If i didn't want it I would not be tempted to steal it but i know stealing it is wrong.

Love doesn't make me keep the law, because love simply isn't concerned with the law. When I love, I do good to people simply because I love them. It's not like I love somebody, and therefore I go to the law to figure out how I should treat them.

Love isn't concerned with the law? But below you show a relation.

I think the point is that when you love, you obviously don't steal or murder or covet etc etc. You could say the same about most earthly laws, too: I don't steal from people, French and Jamaican laws demand that you don't steal, therefore I keep/fulfill French and Jamaican laws... but of course, I'm not at all concerned with how I measure up to French and Jamaican laws, because I live in Norway.

I believe it means to be "under" the knowledge of good and evil. Just like children; they can't do anything wrong until they aquire some sort of knowledge that "this is good and that is bad". Until then, they simply express themselves, and they do what they see their parents do - and that's the whole point: God Himself is our father! We aren't to try and comply with some list over dos and don'ts, but simply keep our eyes on Dad. Even Jesus did that! He said He didn't do anything of Himself, He simply did what He saw His Father do. The more a child looks at his parents, the more he will act like them.

Well if being under the law means to be under the knowledge of good and evil then only the ignorant will be saved.