Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[calluna]

Yeah theres probably no evidence left of that sort in the bible version you read. I did find this in Jimmys version.

Jimmy the 'no bishops, no king' persecutor of doubtful personal habits. Figures.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

26Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse--

27The blessing if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you this day; 28And the curse if you will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you this day to go after other gods, which you have not known.

the other gods part omitted seems rather important

And like most of the OT after Moses, all of that is directed at the OC Hebrew Israelites [before they were split into 2 Nations of course]

Exodus 12:23 And YHWH passes to strike the Egyptians and He sees the blood on the lintel and on two of the jambs and YHWH passes over the portal and not He shall allow the ruiner/07843 shachath to come to houses of you to strike.

Reve 9:11 and they are having on them a king, the messenger of the abyss, name to him to-Hebrew, abaddwn <3>, and in the greecian name he is having Destroyer/From-Looser/apo-lluwn <623>. [Exodus 12:23]

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

 

[Meshavrischika]

and yet christ came to fulfill the law... hence, he didn't come to abolish it. you can not break the law and never fulfill it (hence the love part).

 

[WailingWall]

And like most of the OT after Moses, all of that is directed at the OC Hebrew Israelites

Hebrews 8:8-10
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Sooo...who do you say this covenant belongs to?

 

[Meshavrischika]

6But as it now is, He [Christ] has acquired a [priestly] ministry which is as much superior and more excellent [than the old] as the covenant (the agreement) of which He is the Mediator (the Arbiter, Agent) is superior and more excellent, [because] it is enacted and rests upon more important (sublimer, higher, and nobler) promises.

7For if that first covenant had been without defect, there would have been no room for another one or an attempt to institute another one.
8However, He finds fault with them [showing its inadequacy] when He says, Behold, the days will come, says the Lord, when I will make and ratify a new covenant or agreement with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day when I grasped them by the hand to help and relieve them and to lead them out from the land of Egypt, for they did not abide in My agreement with them, and so I withdrew My favor and disregarded them, says the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their minds, even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding, and engrave them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11And it will nevermore be necessary for each one to teach his neighbor and his fellow citizen or each one his brother, saying, Know (perceive, have knowledge of, and get acquainted by experience with) the Lord, for all will know Me, from the smallest to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful and gracious toward their sins and I will remember their deeds of unrighteousness no more.(C)

just expanding on the above verses... felt like they needed more.

however, what about this I just found:
13When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

just expanding on the above verses... felt like they needed more.

however, what about this I just found:
13When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use).

Luke 5 comes to mind with that

Luke 5:37 "And no one is casting Young Wine into Old/palaiouV <3820> Vessels, if yet no surely shall be ruined the Wine, the Young, of the vessels, and it shall be being poured-out and its vessel shall be perishing.
38 but Young/neon <3501> Wine into New/kainouV <2537> Vessels is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 and no one driking Old immediately is willing Young, for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'".

Hebrews 8:13 in the to be saying `New/kainhn <2537>,' He hath made Old/pepalaiwken <3822> the First. The yet being aged/palaioumenon <3822> and being obsolete nigh of disappearance

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
Yeah theres probably no evidence left of that sort in the bible version you read. I did find this in Jimmys version.

Deut. 11:26-28
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; [27] A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

Again , you deliberately lie about the context of the Scriptures . *I* am not "ye" . *I* was not at Sinai the day that was "this" day or any other day . *I* did not see the tablets . *I* am not an Israelite .


Let's look at more of that passage :
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse- 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known. 29 When the LORD your God has brought you into the land you are entering to possess, you are to proclaim on Mount Gerizim the blessings, and on Mount Ebal the curses. 30 As you know, these mountains are across the Jordan, west of the road, [c] toward the setting sun, near the great trees of Moreh, in the territory of those Canaanites living in the Arabah in the vicinity of Gilgal. 31 You are about to cross the Jordan to enter and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you. When you have taken it over and are living there, 32 be sure that you obey all the decrees and laws I am setting before you today.

Did *you* go to Mount Gerizim after *you* recieved the commands ? Did *you* correctly proclaim the blessings ? Did *you* then go to Mount Ebal ? Did *you* correctly proclaim the curses ? Did *you* do *all* of the commands in that section - the section that *you* say is for *me* ? No ? That , by definition , makes you a liar and a hypocrite .


But , you can continue to damn me for not obeying the same commands that you refuse to obey .

 

[Meshavrischika]

huh? not me dude. I'm just looking at the scripture and seeing what it says to me, not condemning or offering advice to anyone.

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote by Calluna :
There has to be an ulterior motive somewhere.


Indeed , there is . I remembered something from Paul that fits it to a "T" ...

12Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. (NIV)

It is to boast how they are able to manipulate you into performing for them .

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
huh? not me dude. I'm just looking at the scripture and seeing what it says to me, not condemning or offering advice to anyone.

I don't recall you writing that which I quoted . The person who wrote it knows who they are .

The quote function doesn't work for me since the forum upgrade . So , I write "quote" and copy/paste from the posts .

 

[Meshavrischika]

just making sure NW. you know our opinions generally "gel" for the most part. hugs

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote
just making sure NW. you know our opinions generally "gel" for the most part. hugs

*thumbs up*

 

[WailingWall]

quote
Yeah theres probably no evidence left of that sort in the bible version you read. I did find this in Jimmys version.

Deut. 11:26-28
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; [27] A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

Again , you deliberately lie about the context of the Scriptures . *I* am not "ye" . *I* was not at Sinai the day that was "this" day or any other day . *I* did not see the tablets . *I* am not an Israelite .


Let's look at more of that passage :
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse- 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known. 29 When the LORD your God has brought you into the land you are entering to possess, you are to proclaim on Mount Gerizim the blessings, and on Mount Ebal the curses. 30 As you know, these mountains are across the Jordan, west of the road, [c] toward the setting sun, near the great trees of Moreh, in the territory of those Canaanites living in the Arabah in the vicinity of Gilgal. 31 You are about to cross the Jordan to enter and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you. When you have taken it over and are living there, 32 be sure that you obey all the decrees and laws I am setting before you today.

Did *you* go to Mount Gerizim after *you* recieved the commands ? Did *you* correctly proclaim the blessings ? Did *you* then go to Mount Ebal ? Did *you* correctly proclaim the curses ? Did *you* do *all* of the commands in that section - the section that *you* say is for *me* ? No ? That , by definition , makes you a liar and a hypocrite .


But , you can continue to damn me for not obeying the same commands that you refuse to obey .

Real weak arguement. So your saying the 10 commandments ONLY pertained to those who went to Mt Gerizin and to Mt Ebal. Im afraid you couldnt sell that to anyone. And how do i lie by simply posting scripture. I didnt write the book. I see you and your book cant bring yourselves to even say the word "commandments". Thats a shame.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I think the major disconnect is that "scripture" is not universal in it's content (because it is translated)... what one book says does not mean that is what is there.

I can see that maybe this was specifically directed to the Jews as I don't feel any compulsion to march into the land across the Jordan and take posession of that either (so why would this one section apply and not the other?)

There's also that darn translation thing I mentioned above... though I'd venture to say the OT is far more reliable in translation than the NT.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think the major disconnect is that "scripture" is not universal in it's content (because it is translated)... what one book says does not mean that is what is there.

I can see that maybe this was specifically directed to the Jews as I don't feel any compulsion to march into the land across the Jordan and take posession of that either (so why would this one section apply and not the other?)

There's also that darn translation thing I mentioned above... though I'd venture to say the OT is far more reliable in translation than the NT.

Harmonization of the Hebrew and Greek is what is so challenging

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold! days, ones-coming a declaration of YHWH, and-I-Cut/03772 karath with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah a Covenant/01285 b@riyth, New

Hebrews 8:8 "For faulting to-them, He is saying:, `Behold, days are coming, is saying Lord.
And shall-be-together-finishing/sun-telesw <4931> (5692) upon the house of Israel, and upon the house of Judah a Covenant/diaqhkhn <1242>, New/kainhn <2537>"

 

[tulc]

The quote function doesn't work for me since the forum upgrade . So , I write "quote" and copy/paste from the posts .

Did you ever try writing the code for quoting? [ quote ]post[ /quote ] only without the spaces?

post

tulc(sometimes like to write code)

 

[holo]

What made the tree wrong to eat. The command by God or God himself? If God himself then if he did not warn them not to eat of that tree then they would have to pay the price of something that they were not warned about. What is the difference between the 10 commandments and anything else you know is wrong. The devil will tempt you based on what you know is wrong. You only yield to temptation when you take your eyes of Jesus.

Exactly, and the knowledge of good and evil does just that. The law is the knowledge of good and evil.

Paul never said he started thinking about things to covet but he did know coveting through the law.

It's the same age-old principle: the more forbidden it is, the more tempting it becomes...

Knowledge of sin by the law does not mean you must sin.

In practice, it does. Nobody were ever justified under the law.

The law was not seen as a whole by Jesus though. He clearly despised eye for an eye law and stone a woman in adultery law. But he kept the Sabbath and preached thou shall not kill and murder. Jesus started to highlight the results of love. If the Law can in no wise be separated and Jesus condemned the stoning a woman caught in adultery law would he not be condemning thou shall not commit adultery as well.

The law demanded justice, and if justice was to be served, the woman would have to be punished. But Jesus was more gracious than fair.

My point is that there is a separation. When people in the 1500s saw water they see a whole. Now a chemist in our day would wee water as hydrogen and oxygen. The nation of Israel saw it as a whole because they were subject to all for specific reasons. We are not subject to all for specific reasons. And to know those reasons we must realize that the laws are seperated.

But how are we subject to any of the law?

Is the Moral Law the Mosaic Law?

What do you mean by "moral law"? Common conscience/morality that we seem to be born with?

If you are Abraham's seed are you a gentile?

I'm a gentile compared to Israelites. But I'm in the new covenant, so that doesn't matter. In Christ there is neither jew nor greek.

Did Adam and Eve or Moses ask for the law.

Yes, they thought having the knowledge of good and evil was a good thing to have.

Did Moses say to God, "Come down on the mount of Sinai and give me the 10 commandments" That is a typo right?

The law is good, and it looks just as tempting as the forbidden fruit. Who doesn't want knowledge of good and evil? Just take a look at the forums here and see how many "is this sin" and "is this OK" threads there are. Israel was no different. They even said "everything the Lord has said, we will do" when they heard the commandments. Even Christians today are asking for the law, not realizing while it looks so tempting, it only ends up being an instrument of death.

You are correct in that last part. When we see the law and realize how much we are sinners it shows us our need for God. Remember Holo that is is God who placed that tree in the garden and gave the command to not eat of the tree. He did those things so that we would not be Robots so that we would serve him by choice and not by lack of knowledge. When we choose him he wants us to choose him because we love him amidst the pleasures of sin. No one can keep the law perfectly that is why God is not saving us by lawkeeping by by gracegiving. So because we are saved by gracegiving should we break the law and sin? God forbid.

But the whole idea of "breaking the law" is completely meaningless to the believer, because the believer is DEAD. If Adam screwed it for us by eating the forbidden fruit, HOW MUCH MORE shall not Jesus rectify us! It doesn't make any sense to ask a dead man not to break the law. He can't break it any more than he can keep it.

Again, the law doesn't motivate any of my actions, and it doesn't need to.

The law by itself does not reveal your nakedness. It is sin which comes when you take your eyes of God and break the law that shows your nakedness.

I don't think that perspective is correct - Adam and Eve didn't become naked when they ate the fruit. They were already naked. Their nudity wasn't an issue whatsoever, until they learned about right and wrong. And the law is basically just the offspring of that forbidden fruit, and it will do the same to whoever keeps eating of it.

A man living by the spirit would not break the law.

But you can't really say that, because a man living by the Spirit is dead and not under the law at all, anyway.

Whose fault is that. 2 people are to blame. The sinner and the devil. The law did not tempt us to sin but it was the devil that did it. We gave in to the devil instead of keeping our eyes on Jesus. We keep talking about the law resulting in sin but that is an indirect cause. The direct causes are free will and the devil.

But the law is the instrument by which the devil can even tempt us in the first place. Without the commandment, sin is DEAD. Without the law, satan is disarmed.

Keeping the law is supposed to be automatic. Love is what supposed to make it automatic. Looking to God is supposed to also make it automatic. I don't agree with the idea that trying to love according to the law makes us sin more because David said that in God's Law does he meditate day and night.

Well, David wasn't exactly sinfree, was he?

But of course he meditated on the law, the law is good, in fact the best thing they had - they didn't have the gospel.

I understand your point about love making you "keep the law", but it doesn't really - because you can't keep (or break) a law that you're not under. God doesn't ask or expect you to keep the law. He expects His own son to simply express Himself in and through you. That's a VERY different thing! It's not like Jesus went around trying to keep the demands of the law. Heck, He didn't even try to do His best! He simply kept His eyes on the Father.

Thats the same thing. Not sure how you derived that last sentence but the man living in the flesh cannot please God because he is not subject to the law of God. That is what the text says.

The only way a carnal man could hope to please God would be by keeping the law. But we are called to NOT be like this world; they have to do their best to keep the law, we simply abide in Christ (and He in us). In other words, the law has nothing to do with our life anymore. Christ IS our life.

 

[holo]

All 10 the commandments were meant to be kept as a blessing to mankind.

No, they were given to Israel only, and not "as a blessing" but to make sin exceedingly sinful, to kill us all. Furthermore, the law and prophets had their time up until John. And the new covenant has nothing at all to do with the law, and everything to do with the blood of Christ

 

[WailingWall]

however, what about this I just found:
13When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether.

Hebrews 8:10-13
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hello ElsanRandiMom
We all know that ALL do not know the Lord. There will come a time when ALL shall know the Lord but it is not yet. The scriptures say that the 1st covenant is waxing old and is ready to vanish [verse 13]. It has not yet vanished but its getting ready to and at the time it does vanish ALL shall know the Lord.

Isaiah 24:3-6
The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word. [4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

At this time (Day of the Lord) after all thats said is done. The few that are left will know the Lord.

Some new testament scripture to back that up

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Ive tried to leave my words short so as not to be called a liar again.

 

[WailingWall]

quote
All 10 the commandments were meant to be kept as a blessing to mankind.
You have no evidence for that . I was not mentioned in the giving of the Law .

REVELATION 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

makarios,

mak-ar'-ee-os; a prolonged form of the poetical makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off :- blessed, happy (× -ier).

Well..because you dont like the old testament scripture that blesses those who keep the 10 commandments i thought id see how ya like this new testament scripture that says the same thing. Supremely blessed. Cant get any better than that.