Christians and masks: what am I missing?

[Hazelelponi]

I've also seen/heard/imagined some vague connection between mask/vaccine/mandate things and bits of Revelation, but I'm not sure I understand what's implied well enough to articulate it. Is anybody able to fill me in?

I am not a futurist/ dispensationalist where concerns the Book of Revelations, I am actually Amillennialist (historicist / Idealist) so my take on this will be different than others.

But I believe a couple things about the mark of the beast.

1.) It's not a literal mark. It's simply an indication of your spiritual condition.

Why do I believe this?

The seal or mark of God is the indwelling Holy Spirit in the true Christian (not visible to the onlooker in anything but actions), and the mark of the beast is Satan's counterfeit of that seal and likewise is/would also not be something visible to the human being in anything but actions.

2.) Our Biblical example of the Mark of the beast were Roman soldiers going around and asking all they came across to sprinkle a little incense into a little fire on a tray they carried and say "Caesar is Lord"

Do that and they could go on about their business, refuse and die, either on the spot or in the arena"

Important to note: The only people who refused were Christian at that time, and it was seen at that time as an act of political revolution, insurrection. They didn't die because of their faith, they died as insurrectionists, insurgents.

Why? Because They were ruled first and foremost by God, Caesar was second. That is a political position.

That was our Biblical and historical example of taking or refusing the mark of the beast.

3.) We have seen the example, and have seen it play out in history more than once. Whenever the state is coupled with the apostate church, it occurs. It occurred with Islam (say the shahadah or die), it also occurred when Protestant's split with the Catholic church. (Note what the early Protestant's beliefs where concerns the Catholic church was and what that represented in Revelation)

4) I believe it's happening again now, (Early days yet) with this vaccine being representative of worship of what should not be worshipped.

Why?

Well first off vaccines in this country have always been an individual decision based on a person's own unique medical condition and/or religious beliefs.

Second, most vaccines have always been to protect children from childhood diseases, or for those in certain areas of employ (military, healthcare workers, first responders).

No one has ever been asked to prove vaccination status to work in a restaurant, even though a drop of blood can spread things like hepatitis (even though some strains can be vaccinated against).

Even in places where vaccination status is required you're still allowed to have religious and medical exemptions, such as in schools, federal jobs, first responders, healthcare workers etc with the exception of the military personnel.

The reason for that is this country has always had the belief that people should be allowed make their own decisions based on their own circumstances and faith-based beliefs.

The reason why the exception is military personnel is because you literally give the state ownership of your person/body when you sign up for military service.

Right now, the fight is over who literally owns the rights to our physical body. The government is demanding ownership of us, in order they determine what we can or cannot do with our bodies medically. (Medical marshal law).

I didn't give the government rights to my body, and I cannot give the government rights to it - because I've already given ownership to God on the day I was saved some 7 years ago now.

If I get vaccinated under these circumstances then I have literally turned my back on God by giving government what belongs only to God.

That's the mark of the beast, from my view. At the very least for me it's a grave sin, the way I understand Scripture and in my spiritual state.

This is a hill I would die on. Literally.

I intended to get vaccinated. I'd been researching the vaccines before they came out, and had decided to watch these new vaccines and how they did in the general public, but for me I had decided to wait for the Novovax vaccine to come out and get that one.

For me it was relatively simple, being disabled I don't get out all that much and I was happy waiting for something I found a little more trustworthy on the new vaccine market.

But then all this political stuff started up and it literally has become who gets ownership of our bodies. And for me that answer is simple. God and God alone does. I give it over to no one else, for any reason.

Had it stayed a simple vaccine there wouldn't be this issue - but it's been made into something else entirely.

Anyway, that's it.

As we watch we see more and more the hatred against those who won't give body and soul over to the state in total obedience, and it's only getting worse.

People are becoming second class citizens overnight because of vaccination status, and I don't see it changing any time soon. Instead, it seems we are the new Jews under Hitler.... I'm just waiting now to see how far it will go before someone decides we have the right to our faith and wondering if this is the actual hill God has planned for me to die on.

I'm good with it though, I'm saved by the blood of Jesus no matter where it leads.

 

[bass_prayer]

I didn’t quite find what I was looking for. I hoped to see that there are good reasons to not wear a mask. I didn’t see any.

However, I now have a little more appreciation for just how complex the issue is and how hard it is to get a grasp on all the details that matter. I can even concede a few points. Many thanks to j-michael for providing links to papers that give much more detail than “masks don’t work”. I still disagree, but it’s helpful to know where that idea could be coming from. Here’s why I think it’s so easy to draw opposite conclusions here:

1. COVID infections and prevention strategies affect everyone in significant ways, but not at all equally. That basically means we all have a reason for a bias one way or the other. That’s true for individuals, but also businesses, governments, journalists, influencers, etc.

2. Aerosol transmission is complex, with a lot of unknowns. What kind of mask? How well does it fit? Are we breathing normally or singing or coughing or what? What’s the distribution of particle size? How much virus is in them? How close are nearby people? For how long? What’s the ventilation & airflow like? How strong is their immune system? All these details make a difference.

3. It’s not practical for the average person to read every paper and connect the dots to get an accurate picture of all that is known. We’d much rather read a summary or a headline from someone we trust.

4. Complex system with overwhelming details + relying on someone (with a bias) to summarize for us = easy to draw the wrong conclusion.

I still firmly believe wearing masks is the right thing to do for virtually everyone that’s inside with people from other households. My logic is as follows:

· I have way too many friends and family that have been hit hard by the disease. Some still have lingering effects from months ago. Some lost loved ones. Some are serving on the front lines in hospitals and feel the burden like Frodo trudging through Mordor.

· Each of those cases got COVID from somebody, who got it from somebody, who got it from somebody – probably scores of links in that chain by now.

· I want to do whatever I can to not be one of those links in the chain. I don’t want to get it, and I especially don’t want to spread it. Not worried about my health – I just don’t want to harm anyone.

PS: Fun fact- Moses wore a face covering for a while for no other reason than to make those around him more comfortable when his face was glowing after talking to God.

PPS: My bias: I have degrees in both math and physics, but I like physics better than statistics. So I gravitate towards the papers by physicists that describe in great detail how masks change airflow and particle distribution when people wear masks correctly. In contrast, the papers that work through the statistics of actual infections see more of the effects of what people actually do, which can be very different from what they intend to do or what they’re told to do. So my bias here probably causes me to overestimate how effective masks are.

PPSS: I’ve read a couple of papers from physicists about masks:

AAAS

This early one from Duke used a laser + camera to give measurements of filtration efficiency of various masks. It showed significant benefit for almost any mask, but was limited to studying larger particles (~100 micron on up).

Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation

This paper used a similar optical method to evaluate masks, but with different source of particles and including the effects of dispersal in a room with or without ventilation. Particles were well controlled, much smaller (~ 1 micron) and oil – so evaporation didn’t happen. It showed:

· Masks help, but better masks help more

· Fit is very important, and leakage around the nose is a huge variable

· With zero ventilation, particles build up and eventually reach steady state after some hours. The final steady state value depends on masking type/fit.

· Ventilation/filtration helps remove particles from the air and can greatly reduce the steady state concentration

I actually found this paper from chasing links that j-michael provided here:

Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence.

Unfortunately, the same paper I read was summarized as follows by swprs.org:

“A July 2021 experimental study published by the American Institute of Physics found that face masks reduced indoor aerosols by at most 12%, not enough to prevent infections.”

The number 12% is a real number that can be found in the original paper, but that summary is nowhere close to accurate. This is well beyond unconscious bias and squarely in deception territory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is not a Christian thing, this is a right wing US thing by people that identify as Christian. Here is the UK I'd say its more left wing anti-establishment that dont believe in covid or mask wearing. I've yet to meet a Christian who doesnt believe in wearing masks.

I wouldn’t stereotype refusal to wear a mask into any particular group. The truth is it all comes down to an individual’s choice.

 

[Derek1111]

I wouldn’t stereotype refusal to wear a mask into any particular group. The truth is it all comes down to an individual’s choice.

right. As does refusal to wear a seatbelt, smoke in your car with your baby in the back, etc. All just choices.

 

[Albion]

One thing is certain. Masks may do some good under perfect conditions, which you can virtually never find in existence as you go about your daily business.

While the demand that is made is for masking, cloth masks are said by the experts to be of little value, but many if not most of the masks you see worn by other people are cloth. Bandanas and goiters are said by the experts not to work, but they account for a certain percentage of "masked" people you encounter. And no mask works if it doesn't cover the nose, fit well around the sides, and you don't play with them all the time while supposedly wearing a mask.

In view of all of this, the masking being done by the segment of the population which, for whatever reason, complies with the demand cannot be nearly as effective as the claims would have us believe.

For people who are aware of all of this, the suggestion they receive is that regimenting an obedient public is the actual motive of the government agencies who are demanding masks.

That's an answer to the question that was asked in the OP ("What are some reasons Christians have for not wearing masks to help prevent the spread of Covid?'').

 

[Derek1111]

One thing is certain. Masks may do some good under perfect conditions, which you can virtually never find in existence as you go about your daily business.

While the demand that is made is for masking, cloth masks are said by the experts to be of little value, but many if not most of the masks you see worn by other people are cloth. Bandanas and goiters are said by the experts not to work, but they account for a certain percentage of "masked" people you encounter. And no mask works if it doesn't cover the nose, fit well around the sides, and you don't play with them all the time while supposedly wearing a mask.

In view of all of this, the masking being done by the segment of the population which, for whatever reason, complies with the demand cannot be nearly as effective as the claims would have us believe.

For people who are aware of all of this, the suggestion they receive is that regimenting an obedient public is the actual motive of the government agencies who are demanding masks.

That's an answer to the question that was asked in the OP ("What are some reasons Christians have for not wearing masks to help prevent the spread of Covid?'').

well, only true to a point ... Mask-wearing linked to 53% cut in Covid incidence, global study finds

Masking reduces C19. It really is that simple.

 

[BNR32FAN]

right. As does refusal to wear a seatbelt, smoke in your car with your baby in the back, etc. All just choices.

All choices made by individuals not exclusive to any particular political or religious group.

 

[Albion]

well, only true to a point ... Mask-wearing linked to 53% cut in Covid incidence, global study finds

Masking reduces C19. It really is that simple.

I'm going to go for the word simplistic instead.

But more to the point, I answered the question of the thread here ("Why don't people....").

I was not inviting a debate on any or all other aspects of the Covid issue.

 

[splish- splash]

By wearing masks, we are simply following rules & guidelines of the land. Whether they do or don't offer some protection, only God knows for sure. I don't believe, we are to panic along with the world though. We should always magnify God instead. If we ended up catching covid, after wearing masks everyday, it would still be God's will that it happened.

 

[EmmaCat]

I don't see anything in the Scriptures about wearing masks in the midst of an epidemic of a virus.

Maybe for me, it's just common sense to stay away and stay healthy. If your health issues allow, get the vaccine if you will. After all, God did give us free agency, and I am sure all of you very smart theologians can understand that this issue of Covid has nothing to do with Christianity.

It is about a disease, and what we can do to protect ourselves from it. It is up to us how to deal with it.

All good things
Emmy

 

[Derek1111]

All choices made by individuals not exclusive to any particular political or religious group.

errrm. Sure. I wasn't intending to point the finger at any group, except to invite reflection from those who don't - for whatever reason - wear masks, despite their documented effectiveness.

 

[Thera]

By wearing masks, we are simply following rules & guidelines of the land. Whether they do or don't offer some protection, only God knows for sure. I don't believe, we are to panic along with the world though. We should always magnify God instead. If we ended up catching covid, after wearing masks everyday, it would still be God's will that it happened.

Aside from the health and hygiene reasons against wearing masks which have already been raised (masks allow build-up of bacteria and other unwanted compounds that we end up breathing back in), I think a significant reason to resistance to wearing masks is that the government is acting illegally in many places to oblige people to wear them.

When Christians in these jurisdictions don't wear masks, I believe they're actually doing a good service to hold the governments to account by nullifying the illegal (e.g. unconstitutional) and dangerous laws.

 

[BNR32FAN]

errrm. Sure. I wasn't intending to point the finger at any group, except to invite reflection from those who don't - for whatever reason - wear masks, despite their documented effectiveness.

I’m 100% in favor of wearing masks. I don’t particularly like wearing them but the mild burden is definitely warranted and effective for reducing the spread.

 

[grasping the after wind]

So it looks like we're starting to transition into a debate about the merits of some of the stated reasons. That's ok - it's probably inevitable we'd get there eventually. But before we get too far, here's the updated list of reasons I've now heard:

1. I trust God and don't want to live in fear
2. I don't believe what the authorities are telling us
3. Don't tell me what to do
4. I was made in the image of God and don't think I should cover my face
5. Masks don't work
6. Masks cause harm (stuff growing on them, environmental impact, social disconnect, breathing difficulty - I'd add that it's hard to see when your glasses fog)

I've also seen/heard/imagined some vague connection between mask/vaccine/mandate things and bits of Revelation, but I'm not sure I understand what's implied well enough to articulate it. Is anybody able to fill me in?

Any other reasons?

"Masks don't work" would seem to me to be the ultimate reason not to wear one. Why would anyone, Christian or otherwise, need any other reason not to wear a mask?

Of course, some masks do work. Some slightly, and others quite efficiently when fitted properly to the face. Yet very few people seem to be wearing masks that actually work even slightly while also fitting them properly. If one is so concerned about mask wearing that one wishes to mandate that others do so too, why not at the same time mandate proper masks and proper fit instead of mandating to just cover your mouth and nose with a virtually useless piece of cloth and we will pretend it does the same thing as an effective, properly worn mask?

That being the case why do so many Christians self-righteously judge others for nor wearing masks while they wear fashion statement, virtue signal masks that don't work instead of masks that do work?

 

[mama2one]

nm

 

[JohnPaul88]

This is not a Christian thing, this is a right wing US thing by people that identify as Christian. Here is the UK I'd say its more left wing anti-establishment that dont believe in covid or mask wearing. I've yet to meet a Christian who doesnt believe in wearing masks.

I don’t wear masks I trust in God.

 

[mama2one]

nm

 

[Hazelelponi]

errrm. Sure. I wasn't intending to point the finger at any group, except to invite reflection from those who don't - for whatever reason - wear masks, despite their documented effectiveness.

You cannot document masks effectiveness until you do an actual study in a real world situation.

Take 3,000 people and quarantine them. Have 2% of them be actually COVID positive, and the rest negative. Have people be of varying age groups and in varying degrees of health. Have them all wear masks (the same kind we see every day all around, those fashion masks people wear), and do things like shop in stores and work together.

Now have another 3 thousand with the same make-up be completely mask free, doing the same type of activities together and see which group spreads COVID the most...

That's a scientific study we can glean something real from... Anything else boils down to opinion and not a scientific study that we can base real world decisions off of.

 

[chad kincham]

TLDR: What are some reasons Christians have for not wearing masks to help prevent the spread of Covid?

Context/background: I'm really confused. I see many reasons from scripture and otherwise that convince me that wearing a mask around others seems like the right thing to do, but I see tons of Christians around me that must not have reached the same conclusion. Among them are wise, intelligent people that really love the Lord. So I feel like I'm missing something important - what is it? What are the reasons that Christians have for not wearing masks? I'm personally not looking for a debate on the relative merits of these reasons - just a list would be nice. Help me understand.

The reasons I've seen expressed go something like this:

1. I trust God and don't want to live in fear
2. I don't believe what the authorities are telling us
3. Don't tell me what to do
4. I was made in the image of God and don't think I should cover my face

What else?
If this has already been beat to death in previous threads - can you point me towards them? I'm new here

Thanks

Yes, you are missing something, and here is what it is: masks are not designed for viruses, but for bacteria which are much larger than viruses - the holes in the stupid face diapers that they want us to wear are 200% bigger than the virus.
This is why they never called for wearing masks for any of the bad flu viruses that hit, because masks don’t filter out viruses - and there have been at least a dozen studies that show no difference in infection rates between masked and unmasked people, so why should anyone be forced to wear one?
And for those with good long-term memories, they will remember that when covid first started they were telling everyone not to wear masks, and the Reasoning behind that has not changed.

 

[mama2one]

when covid first started they were telling everyone not to wear masks.

they didn't want people to wear masks because they were afraid there wouldn't be enough for health care workers!

of course, people panicked & masks disappeared from shelves

there ARE enough masks now since many businesses got into making masks


Fauci says public not told to wear masks due to PPE shortages | Daily Mail Online


^ "Dr. Fauci reveals public weren't told to wear masks at start of coronavirus pandemic because of fears of shortages for healthcare workers "