Christianity without Satan?

[JackRT]

I believe Karl Barth is right in this case: Karl Barth: Believing in Demons makes us Demonic. There is a negative force, represented in the Bible by demons and Satan. It's what I would call "suprapersonal evil," a kind of madness that can suck people and whole group in. But as negation, it's not really a person. Augustine saw that evil wasn't created by God, because it's not a thing. It has no power of its own, but is a corruption of good things. Barth points out that Satan can't be a fallen angel, because he is a murderer and liar from the beginning (John 8:44). Jesus seldom speaks of it, and only in rejection. (Indeed Luke 10:18 suggests its destruction.) I recall Barth once saying (and I haven't found a source for this, so my memory may be wrong), we don't believe in Satan; we believe against it. To give it reality and study it, even as an enemy, is dangerous. But still, there's no question that suprapersonal evil is a real danger, even if in some sense it doesn't exist.

Friedrich Nietzsche wrote --- Whoever fights monsters, should see to it that in the process he does not himself become a monster.

 

[Martyr's Crown]

If you have those things right, as you post, then you don't ignore hasatan, the enemy.

You overcome him, and destroy his work (in others) as God says.

We overcome him in Jesus Christ's Name and power and strenght, as we can't overcome him in our own strenght and power.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Overcome him in Jesus Christ's Name and power and strenght, as we can't overcome him in our own strenght and power.

Let us all agree, all who are abiding in Jesus and in the Father's Will,
let us all pray fervently, (if permitted, each one),
for the power of the enemy pervading the houses of those following a false gospel to be broken,
and for God Almighty's Power in Christ Jesus to be VICTORIOUS in their lives and in their households !

(debating endlessly for hundreds of threads of posts, does not 'correct' the promoters of the false gospels, nor does it break the power of the enemy that the enemy has over their lives.

Prayer (and maybe fasting?) is much needed, and might be the only hope for anyone.

So let us pray now. And if remembered, every day at this same hour .... even if for a moment, for our GOD REIGNS ! HE IS VICTORIOUS ! Let HIM BRING the VICTORY for the salvation and freedom of souls!

AMEN.

 

[Dale]

Bud, You need to seek out a denomination that believes the Bible is the word of God --as it declares that it is. That minister is deceived , how can a person even be saved if they don't believe what is in the word of God? No you cannot have Christianity and not believe what the Bible teaches about Satan. This is why I left the denomination I grew up in because they were the same as your minister and it did not make any spiritual sense - whatsoever!
Those denominations that believe the Bible is all metaphorical are teaching heresies. Believe the words of Jesus , believe in the words of His apostles written in the N.T. that warn about Satan.
Read & study your Bible and know that it is God's own manuscript to man, it is Truth & He will lead & educate you through His word and save your soul if you believe with faith that Jesus is the Son of God who paid the penalty for your sin, & resurrected in to heaven. If a church is teaching that Satan is just metaphorical they are also denying 3/4 of the Bible, they will most likely be preaching a social gospel rather then the gospel of salvation. Check out Pastor Barry Stagner and www.Hischannel.com , Lion & Lamb Ministries with Dr. David Reagan , Pastor Jack Hibbs and other Bible believing ministries.

Since you are fairly new here, welcome to Christian Forums!

Pedra: “If a church is teaching that Satan is just metaphorical they are also denying 3/4 of the Bible, they will most likely be preaching a social gospel rather then the gospel of salvation. ”

I’ll have to disagree on your suggestion that 3/4 of the Bible is saying something about Satan.

Take a look at the Old Testament prophets. They denounced paganism, multiple gods, and idolatry in no uncertain terms. Yet none of the Books of the prophets use the word “devil.” Zechariah is the only prophet to mention Satan, in a couple of verses. The prophets are a large chunk of the OT, and they don’t dwell on the Devil.

Likewise, the word “devil” doesn’t appear in Psalms and Proverbs. Satan is mentioned in one verse in the Psalms.

What I just said is true in the KJV translation, which overall mentions the Devil and Satan more often than later translations.

 

[Dale]

Man did not create Satan.
What you are preaching is not from the Bible therefore it is not Christian theology. Satan is called the Father of lies by Jesus Himself.
According to the Bible , Satan who was called Lucifer, was once a powerful, beautiful cherub, an angelic being who became vain wanting to be worshiped as God & rebelled against the Most High God. The Bible says the sin of pride was found in him, there was a battle in heaven and archangel Michael & God's angels fought against this rebellion and Lucifer was was cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels who went with him. He was referred to as Satan - the adversary of God.
What you believe is not Christian theology.
The Christian view can be found here for anyone who wants good information that is backed up with scriptures.

Does Satan exist? | GotQuestions.org

Pedra: “Satan is called the Father of lies by Jesus Himself.
According to the Bible , Satan who was called Lucifer, was once a powerful, beautiful cherub, an angelic being who became vain wanting to be worshiped as God & rebelled against the Most High God. The Bible says the sin of pride was found in him, there was a battle in heaven and archangel Michael & God's angels fought against this rebellion and Lucifer was was cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels who went with him. ”


I think you are confusing what the Bible says with the stories we have been told.
I haven’t been able to find decisive proof of a Fall of the Rebel Angels in the Bible. Every passage people point to is either talking about something else or has another explanation.

Maybe you can show me a verse in the Bible that says that Lucifer was in heaven. Maybe you can show me a verse that says that pride was the sin of Lucifer that resulted in his downfall. I haven’t found one.

The story about Michael throwing the dragon out of heaven is in Revelation. If John Milton’s version of events was correct, it should have been a prelude to Genesis, before the Creation.

Jesus did call Satan the father of lies.

I do believe that Satan exists, and demons exist, although I am concerned that many Christians attribute power to them that they don’t really have. As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn’t tell us where demons came from.

 

[Nige55]

Which of the disciples were asked about or confirmed believe in a Satan, before Jesus told them to follow him. Is this something we have to assume so that our beliefs remain unfettered?

Maybe they just believed in what their master taught, just as we indeed should also. The Disciples never mentioned directly that paedophilia is wrong, should we assume that it's ok ?
Strange kind of logic.

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 1 Peter 5:8

“under the sway of the wicked one.” 1 John 5:19

Jesus calls Satan, “the ruler of this world.” John 12:31

Satan, the great deceiver, will finally be thrown into the lake of fire for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14

(Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b)

 

[Nige55]

With all due respect, you are misrepresenting the force of that passage. Unless I'm mistaken, nowhere in that text does it mention that we are tempted by the devil. On the contrary, it states explicitly that temptation comes from within us, from our own desires.

"Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. No one, when tempted, should say, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it; then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. Do not be deceived, my beloved."

I am sure you can find a different passage to support your position. Oddly enough, you picked one that speaks against it.

Thank you, I appreciate the fuller context. Always keen to learn !
However it doesn't speak against it. Scripture is clear in the divide between our fallen nature being tempted by evil & the source of the evil itself.
There are simply too many biblical references to satan. You would also have to discount all of the cases where Jesus cast out demons. How do you account for those ? They are referred to as demons.

 

[JackRT]

Maybe you can show me a verse in the Bible that says that Lucifer was in heaven. Maybe you can show me a verse that says that pride was the sin of Lucifer that resulted in his downfall. I haven’t found one

Isaiah 14:12 ”How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in this verse refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14:4 “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous references to his human nature like Isaiah 14:16 “Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. That anyone would draw that conclusion is, to me, somewhat naive.

 

[public hermit]

How do you account for those ?

I'm not making an argument that there are no demons. I was simply pointing out that your claim was a misrepresentation of that particular text. The only other statement I have made on this thread is that even if there were no Satan or demons, human evil is sufficient for the need of a Savior. I stand by that statement.

 

[RaymondG]

Maybe they just believed in what their master taught, just as we indeed should also. The Disciples never mentioned directly that paedophilia is wrong, should we assume that it's ok ?
Strange kind of logic.

This must be one of the weirdest arguments I've seen. So you believe that you can tell us what is wrong, even if it isnt stated in the Word......just because child molestation wasn't stated explicitly as being wrong either?

You think that adding an emotionally charged topic into the discussion against those that oppose you, will somehow make your words more believable? This only works on the weak minded.

No, you do not have the authority to added whatever you feel like to the list of things that are wrong/bad/sin.....just because child molestation is not listed in the bible......And some may find it disrespectful, to those who have experience this, for you to use their hurt and pain, to prove your points.

 

[Nige55]

I'm not making an argument that there are no demons. I was simply pointing out that your claim was a misrepresentation of that particular text. The only other statement I have made on this thread is that even if there were no Satan or demons, human evil is sufficient for the need of a Savior. I stand by that statement.

I kind of agree with you, certainly man alone, by his own works or 'goodness' is never anywhere near enough to save him, and even how we live our daily lives is usually enough to convict us. However, there's a danger in that - many non believers believe that they are good, and are worthy of heaven regardless of the requirement of salvation.
But this is all hypothetical, as you recognise - we cant counter the biblical accounts of demons, who by their own existence represent an actual evil entity. In other words, it's not just an 'evil within man' just as we don't follow many new age beliefs that spirituality is simply within us and stemming from us.

 

[Nige55]

This must be one of the weirdest arguments I've seen. So you believe that you can tell us what is wrong, even if it isnt stated in the Word......just because child molestation wasn't stated explicitly as being wrong either?

You think that adding an emotionally charged topic into the discussion against those that oppose you, will somehow make your words more believable? This only works on the weak minded.

No, you do not have the authority to added whatever you feel like to the list of things that are wrong/bad/sin.....just because child molestation is not listed in the bible......And some may find it disrespectful, to those who have experience this, for you to use their hurt and pain, to prove your points.

Yes, I believe you can, based on other verses which would support it (sex out of marriage, millstone around the neck for harming children, etc) , the list of scripture to support such examples as being wrong is abundant and easy to reference.
I find it alarming that you don't !
Do you believe that it's not wrong ???
I also find it shocking that the original question posed that I replied to questioned statements from the disciples, when Jesus himself had already clearly made his words clear on the topic of Satan.

If, covering the topic of evil, the devil - paedophilia is something that triggers your 'emotionally charged' button, then I can only assume you tread very lightly around these forums. I would also be audacious to assume that many who have suffered such trauma (I know many myself) would be in support of describing it as evil and wicked, of the devil.

Finally - I'll leave this one here;

Matthew 4:1-11 King James Version
The Temptation of Jesus
4 1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt [1] the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

 

[RaymondG]

Yes, I believe you can, based on other verses which would support it (sex out of marriage, millstone around the neck for harming children, etc) , the list of scripture to support such examples as being wrong is abundant and easy to reference.
I find it alarming that you don't !
Do you believe that it's not wrong ???
I also find it shocking that the original question posed that I replied to questioned statements from the disciples, when Jesus himself had already clearly made his words clear on the topic of Satan.

I fear you have lost your own way among your myriad of thoughts and words. Therefore your words are not incomprehensible, and off even the additional topics that you have added to the thread.

This thread is about the importance of Satan to your salvation. My last reply was concerning your need to mention, child molestation as not being condemned in the bible outright, to support your claim that YOU can say something else is obviously wrong when it is, likewise, not mentioned in the bible.

Lets not try to make this about child molestation....Im confused why you even brought it up in this topic. It is unnecessary, and if, now, you dont even remember why you threw it in, lets move pass it.

If, covering the topic of evil, the devil - paedophilia is something that triggers your 'emotionally charged' button, then I can only assume you tread very lightly around these forums. I would also be audacious to assume that many who have suffered such trauma (I know many myself) would be in support of describing it as evil and wicked, of the devil.

You may need to read my response again. It is a common tactic, for some, with weak arguments, to throw in an emotional exaggeration, to get the reader to focus on the emotion and off the weakness of the argument.

I am unaffected by your words. Yet I think they would be respected more, if you can prove your point via the strength of your argument, rather than trying to win by linking those that oppose you to, rape, murder, child molestation.....or anything else that you feel, might sway the weak minds to ignore the weakness of your argument and, instead focus on the emotions triggered by known emotion triggering topics.

 

[Nige55]

I fear you have lost your own way among your myriad of thoughts and words. Therefore your words are not incomprehensible, and off even the additional topics that you have added to the thread.

This thread is about the importance of Satan to your salvation. My last reply was concerning your need to mention, child molestation as not being condemned in the bible outright, to support your claim that YOU can say something else is obviously wrong when it is, likewise, not mentioned in the bible.

Lets not try to make this about child molestation....Im confused why you even brought it up in this topic. It is unnecessary, and if, now, you dont even remember why you threw it in, lets move pass it.



You may need to read my response again. It is a common tactic, for some, with weak arguments, to throw in an emotional exaggeration, to get the reader to focus on the emotion and off the weakness of the argument.

I am unaffected by your words. Yet I think they would be respected more, if you can prove your point via the strength of your argument, rather than trying to win by linking those that oppose you to, rape, murder, child molestation.....or anything else that you feel, might sway the weak minds to ignore the weakness of your argument and, instead focus on the emotions triggered by known emotion triggering topics.

My words are not incomprehensible ? Do you mean they are incomprehensible ?
As with many topics, there are branches from the OP that explore scripture. I remember very clearly why I used the example I used. I even gave a couple of examples of how we can draw from very basic biblical teaching WHY we can deem that example to be wrong and sinful (it harms children - in reference to the Millstone, and is sexual immorality in very fundamental terms (i.e. it's not between a man and wife married before God).

As for your second paragraph, I'm reading lots of 'strength of argument', 'trying to win', 'sway weak minds', 'weakness of your argument', 'emotions triggered' and 'emotionally triggered'.

This is a Christian forum.
I'm not 'trying to win arguments' or 'sway weak minds' - I've been using scripture (as this is a Christian forum) to get to the bottom of a topic from a scriptural perspective. The Op is questioning Christianity without Satan, - I posted Matthew 4:1-11 amongst others and yet you'd rather give me advice on how my words can be more respected.
I think I'd struggle to find words more respectable than quoting directly from scripture.

What are your thoughts on Matthew 4:1-11? How do do reconcile the satan spoken of, and the interaction with Jesus ? Could Jesus have a nature that could tempt himself although he is described as perfect, holy and sinless ? Could this nature lift him on top of a mountain, promise him land ?
These are all normal discussions when getting into scripture.

 

[Jipsah]

But can Christianity work (i.e. make sense) without the concept of The Devil? I say it can’t Light without darkness makes no sense

Sounds like Good God/Bad God dualism, which is not Christian. Satan isn't a bad god, he's just a bad creature. He didn't create sin (or anything else, for that matter), but he does encourage it. Satan exists by God's sufferance, and when God is done with him, Satan will be destroyed. Not sure what you mean when you ask if Christianity can "work" without Satan. It's sort of like asking if 2+2 would still be true if the moon was hollow.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe in Satan/The Devil (but not as a red dude with horns etc.)

But many Christians don’t, even though he’s clearly in the bible

But can Christianity work (i.e. make sense) without the concept of The Devil?

I say it can’t

Light without darkness makes no sense

Does anyone here think Christianity can work without The Devil?

I say: Just because you don't like the idea of The Devil doesn't make it untrue!

Allow me to share a story:

Before I became Christian I attended a Unitarian chapel

I mentioned to the minister there that I believed in Satan

And he went and contacted my mother, telling her he was worried because I believed in Satan

How outrageous is that!

I almost used an expletive to describe my reaction to the outrageousness of it, but I remembered my clerical station and that it is a Unitarian. And Unitarians aren’t at all Christians; to the extent they practiced a heretical form of Christianity in the late 18th and early 19th century, based on Soccinianism, believing Jesus Christ to be an enlightened man who was not divine, their chief theologian being William Ellery Channing, this is no longer the case, and hasn’t been since the “transcendentalism” introduced by complete apostates like Ralph Waldo Emerson took over completely.

The sad things about the Unitarian Universalist Association are four-fold: they represent the wealthiest denomination per capita, yet their charitable works are unimpressive compared to the mainline Christian denominations, the traditional denominations like the SBC and LCMS, the Roman Catholics and the Eastern churches; they are growing, and not shrinking, unlike the United Church of Christ, which they separated from in a schism in the late 18th century (the Unitarians seized control of Harvard forcing the Congregationalists to build Yale), they promote a vast array of destructive ideologies in opposition to mainstream Christian values, and they control several of the most historic church buildings in the US, including Old Ship Church, which is the oldest surviving church building in New England and the original 13 colonies.

 

[The Liturgist]

I understand the chapels concern...... The main theme in church is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved!.... What do you think the theme of a Satan worship gathering would be?

I am the Lord and Besides me, there is non other.

I would refrain from confessions of belief in devils.....especially in a place where the worship of God is supposed to take place.

@nopq did not mean to express that he worshipped the devil, merely that he believed the devil existed. And it is typical of Unitarians to view such an idea as superstition, since the Unitarian religion is basically free of doctrine.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'd say you're quite right

If you were to walk into a Unitarian church and declare yourself a worshipper of Satan I'm pretty sure they'd be sure to welcome you in

This is sadly not too far from the truth; there are many neo-Paganists in the UUA and British Unitarianism.

The only two Unitarian churches which are still nominally Christian, albeit heretical, are the Hungarian and Transylvanian Unitarians. But clergy exchange programs between the ministers of those churches and British Unitarians and American Unitarian-Universalists will have the effect of propagating the entirely post-Christian ideology into those communities. So we need to pray those people are saved through the preaching of the Gospel by right-believing Christians.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Maybe lots of churches also ? (haven't checked recently)

 

[straykat]

I believe in Satan/The Devil (but not as a red dude with horns etc.)

But many Christians don’t, even though he’s clearly in the bible

But can Christianity work (i.e. make sense) without the concept of The Devil?

I say it can’t

Light without darkness makes no sense

Does anyone here think Christianity can work without The Devil?

I say: Just because you don't like the idea of The Devil doesn't make it untrue!

Allow me to share a story:

Before I became Christian I attended a Unitarian chapel

I mentioned to the minister there that I believed in Satan

And he went and contacted my mother, telling her he was worried because I believed in Satan

How outrageous is that!

No, it's not possible. I tagged your post "Funny" btw, but I'm not laughing at you. Just your pastor.

People who don't take this seriously might as well consider themselves already dead. We war not against flesh and blood.