Christianity on the wane?

[Carbon]

Yeh, it is defensible. There are exceptions of course, just as there are bound to be with most historical generalizations, but Conservatism, being built upon religious faith and values, has always been the adversary of all movements which minimize religion or outright oppose it.

I'll bite. What fundamental religious faith and values do you have in mind that were not the product of some innovation?

 

[Albion]

I'll bite. What fundamental religion faith and values do you have in mind that were not the product of some innovation?

A great part of our Western values come from Biblical principles. These of course got into the mainstream of our civilization by way of Christianity and, to some extent also, Judaism. Even secular-minded people in our societies adhere to and promote many of the same values because of this fact.

 

[Carbon]

A great part of our Western values come from Biblical principles. These of course got into the mainstream of our civilization by way of Christianity and, to some extent also, Judaism. Even secular-minded people in our societies adhere to and promote many of the same values because of this fact.

We can debate to what extent Western values come from “Biblical principles” as if there is such a monolithic thing but let’s leave that discussion for another day.

I am still curious what religious values or beliefs you think did not come from some innovation of human thought.

 

[Albion]

We can debate to what extent Western values come from “Biblical principles”

You might want to debate it, but it's such a well-known and indisputable fact of Western history that I'm not going to debate it.

I am still curious what religious values or beliefs you think did not come from some innovation of human thought.

"Innovation," which you've referred to several times now, was something you introduced into the discussion about the nature of Conservatism (and Liberalism). I see no basis for thinking it to be a valid point.

 

[James_Lai]

Fragmentation in Christianity is a feature not a bug. Christianity doesn't need uniformity or even unity to survive. What it needs is to fill as many branches on the religious tree as possible while plausibly self-reporting "Christian".



Excellent observation. Ironically the Christianities that are closest to each other are most antagonistic to each other. For example, evangelical Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses agree on much more than, say, Baptists and Catholics. Yet Catholics are brothers and sisters and JW are "heretics".



Innovations in religion have both a objectively functional purpose and a subjectively claimed purpose. These two are often different and there is no reason the innovators need even be consciously aware of their idea's functional purpose. The forgers who wrote the pastoral letters in Paul's name may well have thought they were acting morally (the subjective purpose), but the functional purpose (i.e., the result) of their insistence on a church hierarchy, suppression of women, and conservative family values was to change the church so it would survive for the long haul. The apocalyptic moral program of Jesus and Paul was not sustainable because apparently the world wasn't going anywhere any time soon.



Agreed that these can never be a stable feature of any majority party in Christendom. But they are extremely viable niches that will always have a non-trivial subscriber base.



I think whether this dualism adds much to the equation depends on the details, so maybe you could elaborate there.

So it’s a random process as you describe it, similar to gene mutations that spread widely or within an ecological niche, or die off. Environmental pressures are the modern cultural conditions that evolve, forcing religion to adapt. Again I don’t see endless possibilities for adaptation in Christianity that takes the Bible as its foundation. Sequence of nitrogen-containing bases can change anywhere, but you can’t say there’s 10 Gods, for example. The Trinity is a clever way to keep monotheism, but there’s no way you can have a Decadity with the same Bible… Hard to find subscribers for highly flexible interpretations, as people are used to treating the Scripture a certain way. Literal/allegorical yes, but there’s limits. So I think if the society evolves beyond adaptability features of a religion, the religion slowly disappears or transforms into something very different from the original.

Forgeries of Paul - some of the Pauline epistles or all of them? Marginalizing colonists, is it really happening and is of a concern? I don’t see that.

The purpose I’m talking about is higher than the functional purpose of survival and success of the religion itself. I’m talking about the place where we want the religion to eventually take us as the humankind.

Sanctity of life, for example. We took it to the extreme as a species and we see that with the population growth/consumption/pollution, it’s not sustainable on our planet. If we had a planet 100 times bigger today, maybe. (I know about gravity) To do away with sanctity of life sounds scary though… Or you mean life of fetus? A new definition of sanctity or life, yes. For example, considering long-term sustainability, “multiply” and “wealth is a blessing” have to be reviewed. Sanctity of individual life a very difficult matter. Hard to find a balance and to ensure we don’t fall into total disregard of it.

The higher purpose? To research and find the truth of God. Truly, honestly, with an open mind. To unite as a species for peaceful sustainable existence, progress of knowledge and technology for the good of all equally, for better understanding of ourselves and the world around us. Yes, a utopia… Why not? Aim high

There’s phenomena our senses and instruments miss registering. “The spiritual, immaterial, supernatural”. Religion (and not only) has been a research. Not without successes! Dogmatism in religion or in science cause stagnation in both fields. Copernicus, Galileo, Jesus, Muhammed etc revolutionaries move us forward in leaps. Although, 2000 years or 1400 years is a preeeety long time without a major breakthrough….

A healthy measure of conservatism is vital in both fields, I believe, like breaks in a car. Careful and cautious innovation without unnecessary rush. Or else you risk cutting the branch you are sitting on… We don’t want to throw out the baby with the basin water…

I know, God or soul or afterlife or unicorn or grandma-turned-angle etc are unprovable concepts and therefore as good as non-existant. I do believe we can evolve to a point where this can change and it won’t be a question to most or all of us, as it will be included in our direct experience and even enhanced with technology.

In our lifetimes? Probably not. Ever? At the current level of our civilization’s development, hmmmm, probably slim chance… Worth a try though!!!!!!!

Maybe the young generation can pull it off? The Internet kids, we tend to think they’re helpless without Google, but who knows?? especially if they do accept Social connection above Tik-Tok

 

[Carbon]

You might want to debate it, but it's such a well-known and indisputable fact of Western history that I'm not going to debate it.


"Innovation," which you've referred to several times now, was something you introduced into the discussion about the nature of Conservatism (and Liberalism). I see no basis for thinking it to be a valid point.

If you have nothing to contribute then don’t waste everyone’s time.

 

[Carbon]

I don’t see endless possibilities for adaptation in Christianity

Religious belief is an infinite-bounded set in my opinon, like the infinite set of numbers between 0 and 1. The infinite part is obvious. Within its boundaries a religion can evolve forever as new ideas come and go. But even the boundaries are much wider than is supposed. Almost every belief considered by one Christian sect to be a fundamental doctrine is contradicted by some other Christian sect. Christian Atheism being one example. Christianity has only one absolute core feature in my opinion: Christ. Can you think of any others?

Forgeries of Paul - some of the Pauline epistles or all of them?

7 letters written in the name of Paul are generally considered to be authentic. The others inside and outside the New Testament range from likely to certain forgery.

Marginalizing colonists, is it really happening and is of a concern?

Current American colonies include American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. Some former colonies have been incorporated as states. It is a concern if you think people under the control of a federal government should have a vote in who runs that government.

In the current American culture war, liberals have jumped the shark policing people’s language and accusing everyone of racism. Innovative Christians have the potential to scoop them on rights revolutions that actually matter. Sex slaves, children, and imperial colonists seem more deserving of everyone’s attention.

To do away with sanctity of life sounds scary though… Or you mean life of fetus? A new definition of sanctity or life, yes. For example, considering long-term sustainability, “multiply” and “wealth is a blessing” have to be reviewed

I’m extremely stingy about labeling things sacred. Rather than sanctifying life, which I consider a useless concept, I would rather sanctify quality of life. How you live is more important than that you live. Women's reproductive freedom should be protected as well as people's right to end their lives gracefully if they choose.

A healthy measure of conservatism is vital

Agreed, conservatives manage what liberals create.

I know, God or soul or afterlife or unicorn or grandma-turned-angle etc are unprovable concepts and therefore as good as non-existant. I do believe we can evolve to a point where this can change and it won’t be a question to most or all of us, as it will be included in our direct experience and even enhanced with technology.

I share your optimism in the possible. “Anything not prohibited by the laws of physics is possible given the right knowledge.” That includes limitless human lifespans, mastery of the universe, and unicorns. Although a Pegasus would be more fun, no?