Christianity on the wane?

[James_Lai]

Many have expressed a pessimistic, defeatist, doomsayer “you can’t do anything about it” approach… Doesn’t Jesus call to spread the gospel to every corner of the earth and work hard trying to reap the ripe harvest? Doesn’t God give bright promises? How can you just dismiss everything and basically not care about the perishing souls? Jesus didn’t give statistical analysis of how narrow or how wide the gates and the ways are going to be. It could very well be 40/60% ratio for all we know. How can you assume it’s 0.1/99.9% and be fine with it?

I just can’t reconcile the urgent, persistent and loving call of Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament and this lack of initiative and such indifferent and complacent acceptance of the current situation.

Maybe that’s the cause? The candle is being hidden under a cover? The city being relocated from the top of the hill to a deep ravine? Nobody willing to say to God “here I am, send me?”

If you have love and compassion in your heart, how can you see people suffering and in need of God’s salvation and look the other way??

 

[James_Lai]

And then there's the following bit that Jesus is reported by Luke to have said and over which we all have to wrestle when wondering about its application to some moment in history:

Luke 18:8 [NIV]

"... However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”​

Always a glass half-empty worldview? Why not reply to this rhetorical question of Jesus by a firm and resounding “yes, Lord, he will”?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Always a glass half-empty worldview? Why not reply to this rhetorical question of Jesus by a firm and resounding “yes, Lord, he will”?

Why not? Well, while I'd like to play the optimist as we attempt to understand Jesus' question, however floating between a state of rhetoric or one of literal allusion we may think it does, we'll find that it has various contextual connections that may move us to align it with other things Jesus is reported to have said along with things His 1st century disciples (and/or apostles) have said.

And being the philosopher that I try to be, I am going to assume that I don't see through the glass all that clearly--it might in fact be full, it might be empty, or it might be half-full. I don't know for sure, but then where the future is concerned, usually, neither does anyone else.

 

[James_Lai]

Why not? Well, while I'd like to play the optimist as we attempt to understand Jesus' question, however floating between at state of rhetoric or one of literal allusion, we'll find that it has various contextual connections that may move us to align it with other things Jesus is reported to have said along with things His 1st century disciples (and/or apostles) have said.

And being the philosopher that I try to be, I am going to assume that I don't see through the glass all that clearly--it might in fact be full, it might be empty, or it might be half-full. I don't know for sure, but then where the future is concerned, usually, neither does anyone else.

The response has less to do with attitude and more with action, I think. It’s a calling. Jesus expects faith. Then do something about it. It all starts with you. Oh well, it’s all gonna burn anyway… Not what God really intended, I think

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The response has less to do with attitude and more with action, I think. It’s a calling. Jesus expects faith. Then do something about it. It all starts with you. Oh well, it’s all gonna burn anyway… Not what God really intended, I think

You may need to parse out a bit what you're intending to say here because I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're getting at, and I kind of sense that you're juggling several diverse tangents which may or may not be fully coherent with each other ...

 

[James_Lai]

You may need to parse out a bit what you're intending to say here because I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're getting at, and I kind of sense that you're juggling several diverse tangents which may or may not be fully coherent with each other ...

Jesus says, “will I find faith when I come back”? He wants faith. So his followers are to believe and to go out and try to make more disciples. To me it’s simple. It’s not like, oh well, He’s not gonna find any faith, so why bother?

 

[Occams Barber]

Very interesting. Also level of education maybe. China is pretty stable and increasingly becoming even more so. Maybe in absolute figures the growth is impressive, but in relative to the total population (per capita) is not significant.

I agree that China's Christian growth is a situation where the absolute numbers appear high but are probably insignificant when looked at as a % of the population or a per capita figure.

While I've focussed on insecurity as a driver of growth there are other factors. As you mentioned, level of education is probably a negative factor. Another very significant factor is cultural transmission. Christians tend to beget Christians.

One growth factor which rarely gets a mention is positive image. Since Christianity tends to be associated with wealthy Western countries it comes with a built in reputation as a religion associated with wealth and success. This applies particularly in poorer Third World countries. I suspect that this positive image has become badly tarnished within Christian Western countries. As a result people are being driven away from the Church.

From my point of view being aware of what attracts people to Christianity is the first step in understanding why it's shrinking in the West.

The typical, resigned 'tares and wheat' or 'end times' response may be spiritually satisfying but has little practical value when it comes to solving the problem.

OB

 

[Albion]

But isn't the fly in the ointment there the fact that religion in general is fading in the West? Unless we're talking about miniscule religions that have attracted a few curious new adherents or immigrants bringing their previous religions with them, this seems to be a general trend, not something that shows a loss of interest in Christianity in particular.

 

[James_Lai]

But isn't the fly in the ointment there the fact that religion in general is fading in the West? Unless we're talking about miniscule religions that have attracted a few curious new adherents or immigrants bringing their previous religions with them, this seems to be a general trend, not something that shows a loss of interest in Christianity in particular.

Very interesting. So disillusionment with religion in general. Why so?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Jesus says, “will I find faith when I come back”? He wants faith. So his followers are to believe and to go out and try to make more disciples. To me it’s simple. It’s not like, oh well, He’s not gonna find any faith, so why bother?

Sure. Those are good points, and being that I'm coming into the middle of this thread without having read all of the other posts, I may be missing some of the contexts in which your comments are sitting.

So, with this other direction of inquiry in mind, I'll think about "why we should bother?"

I'd just say that for those of us who are Christians, we're directed to live and speak in the hope that we'll encourage others to look to Jesus, and we do this and are to do this as we move through the future even though many of us think the Biblical writings dealing with Eschatology indicate that the world of belief and respect for 'Jesus' will falter rather than grow. In other words, we expect things to get worse before they get better for the social and psychological conditions involved in the formation of faith for any one person. We understand this and, while we know that our efforts will be sabotaged more often than they're allowed to succeed, we maintain our faith and hope anyway.

And, incidentally, the falling off of the Christian faith and the growth of unbelief in the Modern World also serves as a kind of Eschatological sign for Christians as they trudge forward in the Christian life.

 

[Albion]

Very interesting. So disillusionment with religion in general. Why so?

Western civilization is now very much in love with science, not with any God, faith is seen as credulousness in the minds of many people, and the highest of moral values are self-assurance, equality of results, innovation, and etc., which have gradually replaced the Biblical virtues.

 

[James_Lai]

I agree that China's Christian growth is a situation where the absolute numbers appear high but are probably insignificant when looked at as a % of the population or a per capita figure.

While I've focussed on insecurity as a driver of growth there are other factors. As you mentioned, level of education is probably a negative factor. Another very significant factor is cultural transmission. Christians tend to beget Christians.

One growth factor which rarely gets a mention is positive image. Since Christianity tends to be associated with wealthy Western countries it comes with a built in reputation as a religion associated with wealth and success. This applies particularly in poorer Third World countries. I suspect that this positive image has become badly tarnished within Christian Western countries. As a result people are being driven away from the Church.

From my point of view being aware of what attracts people to Christianity is the first step in understanding why it's shrinking in the West.

The typical, resigned 'tares and wheat' or 'end times' response may be spiritually satisfying but has little practical value when it comes to solving the problem.

OB

So with weaker familial and societal pressures, the church looses people. Again talking about growth in Latin America or Africa, if we index the Christian growth to total population growth, maybe the % growth isn’t that high? I don’t know.

if we look wider than just what attracts people on the surface, like in psychological homeostasis to release tensions or obtain more power or money to defeat inferiority complex (Freudian and Adlerian) and look deeper at motivation and purpose for living aspect (Franklean). Internal pleasures vs. external good. I am always always perplexed by the mechanistic model of human being in the West. Like automaton. Even by religious thought. As a collection of physical-chemical and psychological as in your mind structure and experience. Last Sunday I listened to a preaching in local church and it was about Wisdom and basically atheistic and logical, very practical, but nothing truly spiritual at all. To me, it was dead boring. No, the preacher was a very talented speaker, young and truly humorous and sensitive, an intelligent, likeable person. His message was just not what you go to church for at all. Passionate vision is absent completely.

I miss so much here in the West our high ideals we had when growing up under the ideology of communism. Strictly atheist, but a human being was looked at much more than just a mechanism of inputs and outputs and processing in between… This is the absolutely overwhelming view in the West, in or outside church. So in my upbringing, there was understanding still that idea, thought, the human spirit so to speak is way more powerful than a collection of water, proteins and so on that composes us. Maybe a little more like Jungean. It was so strongly ingrained in us that the good of society, the progress in knowledge is why we are here. So you can withstand any hardships because it’s worthwhile. And people do. We had high ideals with great passion. We had a positive expectation for the future. Not “what the world can give me”, but “what I can contribute to this world positively”. Very powerful drive. This gloom and doom, and negativity everywhere here is killing my soul.

A positive and elevated look at human beings is lacking badly here. Maybe that’s why there’s such lost feeling here, people think their life is futile, people are frustrated and don’t feel a sense of meaning.

Maybe Latin American and African church does retain a more spiritual outlook at man, thus being attractive not only due to the image (sociologically). Maybe on a very deep psychological level it does answer the longing for a high purpose. Besides providing support to the parishioners sought in a “dog eat dog” society without much socialist cradle-to-coffin welfare and security.

 

[James_Lai]

Western civilization is now very much in love with science, not with any God, faith is seen as credulousness in the minds of many people, and the highest of moral values are self-assurance, equality of results, innovation, and etc., which have gradually replaced the Biblical virtues.

Seems science, which is great in itself, became the only way to look at things? But science is limited, and tends to be nartow and reductionist (for a good reason) and probably will always remain such, so we kind of voluntarily limit ourselves in our understanding and experience of life?

 

[Albion]

I cannot deny that, James, but science has become the "god" of modern Western society. Not with every last person, of course, but religion is seen, among the intellectuals and upper classes as superstition, something that only less sophisticated people would believe in.

Oddly enough, though, the former group doesn't have any hesitation when arguing that an unborn child isn't a human or that there are 30+ genders! Science sometimes gets in the way of the science-lovers, but it doesn't matter. It's all a matter of politics, fundamentally.

 

[eleos1954]

Hello.
I’m observing Christianity and looking at the past history of it, recent and more distant, I can see Christian religious institutions across the board are waning. The traditional values are decaying, the strength of faith is crumpling. The most affected are the young generation, which is especially aided by the digital world of gadgets and the Internet (yes, I’m typing it on my device screen )

What I see as the baseline of the problem is anything real is disappearing, and only profiteering is remaining. This shocks me as it comes in a stark contrast with the essence of Jesus Christ’s teaching, love. Instead of emanating and teaching love, Christianity became introverted and utilitarian.

If you agree with me, what is the solution? What Christian spiritual leaders are to do to improve it and return to the roots? Considering that faith cannot be forced upon anybody in any way, it must be nourished gently and grow within people organically.

Or if you disagree that Christianity is on the decline, why?

We are informed in His word this would happen, so it is no surprise ... prophesy unfolding. We get the gospel out ... until His return.

 

[hedrick]

For much of its history the US was not highly churched. The period after WW 2 seems to have been a peak. So a decline in membership and participation in churches alone isn’t so surprising.

However those not attending church commonly considered themselves at least vaguely Christian So the rise of those who don’t is arguably new.

I don’t think there’s any one answer. I agree that the success of science has had some effect. However that is surely not the only thing. Conservative Christianity seems to have lost credibility with many, and liberal Christianity has tended to result in “why bother?”

I claim that both approaches have issues. Conservative Protestantism seems to be based on the idea that if you don’t have faith in Christ you’ll end up being tortured forever. That is subject to two problems (1) credibility based on critical study of history and the Bible (2) the plausibility of someone like God actually treating people that way. However liberal Christianity hadn’t managed to produce motivation to be a Christian to replace fear of hell.

In some areas the most successful form of Christianity is Pentecostalism and other forms of Christianity that produce intense religious experience. That’s a possible replacement for the fear of hell, but I’m not sure what fraction of the population it can attract. In some areas it has been substantial. Traditional liturgy could potentially play a role here.

I don’t see any easy answer. I’m not talking here about what is actually true, but what someone considering options is likely to find plausible. We’re not likely to forget either science or critical thought, no matter how hard people try to remove it from schools. Nor are moral questions about hell and the existence of evil likely to go away once they become widespread. My own feeling is that the future is probably with forms of Christianity that provide a satisfying form of experience, whether it’s a supportive community, liturgy, Pentecostal experience, or some combination.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

If you agree with me, what is the solution? What Christian spiritual leaders are to do to improve it and return to the roots? Considering that faith cannot be forced upon anybody in any way, it must be nourished gently and grow within people organically.

There are some good spiritual leaders out there. But it is a problem that has plagued humanity from the beginning. God always tried to get good kings into Israel, but when you see who was actually king, most of them fell into some form of sin or another. Saul, David, Solomon - some of Israel's best kings (given a bad batch) all sinned.

The way to "fix" the situation is to focus on our own relationship will God. Not try to "fix" other people. God said of Moses when Israel sinned "I will make a great nation out of you", essentially saying "one man could do God's work".

We can do God's work, but we need to have the right heart. The heart is important.

 

[bling]

Hello.
I’m observing Christianity and looking at the past history of it, recent and more distant, I can see Christian religious institutions across the board are waning. The traditional values are decaying, the strength of faith is crumpling. The most affected are the young generation, which is especially aided by the digital world of gadgets and the Internet (yes, I’m typing it on my device screen )

What I see as the baseline of the problem is anything real is disappearing, and only profiteering is remaining. This shocks me as it comes in a stark contrast with the essence of Jesus Christ’s teaching, love. Instead of emanating and teaching love, Christianity became introverted and utilitarian.

If you agree with me, what is the solution? What Christian spiritual leaders are to do to improve it and return to the roots? Considering that faith cannot be forced upon anybody in any way, it must be nourished gently and grow within people organically.

Or if you disagree that Christianity is on the decline, why?

They make an excellent point.


Everything good in this world has been corrupted by man to bring power, money, fame and false honor to a few people.

We are really poor at commitment in the West, so I talk about what is happening in Iran, Communist China, North Korea and in the prison program.

Severe persecution somehow in the West might help weed out the hypocrites and uncommitted.

Salvation is not by country, committee, church or even family, but it is individual, so tell me about yourself?

 

[James_Lai]

They make an excellent point.


Everything good in this world has been corrupted by man to bring power, money, fame and false honor to a few people.

We are really poor at commitment in the West, so I talk about what is happening in Iran, Communist China, North Korea and in the prison program.

Severe persecution somehow in the West might help weed out the hypocrites and uncommitted.

Salvation is not by country, committee, church or even family, but it is individual, so tell me about yourself?

I’m a seeker. Looking at different religions, trying to find the truth

 

[bling]

Very interesting. Also level of education maybe. China is pretty stable and increasingly becoming even more so. Maybe in absolute figures the growth is impressive, but in relative to the total population (per capita) is not significant.

Before the Bamboo Curtain went up there were estimated to be 4 million Christians in China, but all paid clergy were taken away never to return, so it was felt Christianity died in China. Women actual kept the church going and growing under ground (in caves along the coast mostly). To day the unregistered church is estimated at 175 million and growing rapidly and these members go to church, study and teach others about Christ thus the growth. Few meet in buildings, so the house churches keep splitting as they grow.