Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[Anguspure]

Abraham was a believer in his fathers religion beyond the rivers before his conversion to Melchizedeks teaching.

Yes he was, it was the religion of Nimrod also, but he is also beleived to have lived with Noah and Shem (Book of Jasher).

The scripture at best dates to Moses, the Hebrew priest finalized their rather dubious, exaggerated retrospective in Babylon. There is no scripture which predates Moses who was a reformer of the practices of his followers in Egypt.

Many scholars agree that the book of Job in the Bible is older. "We know this because of the age of the Hebrew used. Languages evolve through time....The Hebrew in Job is so old it’s unique. It’s actually often called “Paleo-Hebrew.” Job was written in the time of the Patriarchs. Genesis was written, or compiled, by Moses, some 430+ years later! The difference in Job and Genesis is the same as our KJV and today!" (https://thescrolleaters.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/the-oldest-book-job-1-5/)

We can glean something of the pre-exile beliefs and practices of Moses group from the reforms and rules he instituted. So this idea that they all had an understanding going back to Adam is colored by the Hollywood type of story that the Hebrews wrote about themselves which also informs our current historical worldview.

This sort of speculation comes with apriori assumption of Naturalism and is Godless, I prefer to stick with the story as it's presented by the Author. Besides if you want a great read about the Israelites that doesn't necessarily let the truth get in the way of a good story, the Book of Jasher makes much better Hollywood material, read this one. In contrast, the Torah is positively sober, down to earth and honest.

 

[Colter]

Just "wow".

"exaggerated retrospective" "colored by the Hollywood type of story" "that the Hebrews wrote about themselves"

How is all of this possible when the OT is a collection of history that foreshadows Christ, parallels the life of Christ and has metaphors of the actions and events in Christs life woven throughout it's pages. All of this from a people that don't even recognize their messiah, even today.

Why would they write such masterfully crafted tales and yarns about a Son of God that they don't acknowledge?

You do realize that as the saying goes:

In the Old Testament...... Christ concealed.
In the New, Christ revealed.

This collection of scriptures was written by men who were inspired by the Holy God of this universe. Every jot and tittle is specifically planned and set to paper, by men but breathed by God. There is no other explanation for the wisdom, prophesy and teaching that it contains that is ageless, timeless, collection of scripture that will live forever.

To say this was merely a collection of words put together by men with a mission, is the utmost display of ignorance of the books contained in the Bible and their content.

You do realize that the contemporaries of the prophets abused and even murdered them? It was generally later generations that came to respect them. There's the church politicians and the common man and church leaders can be very corrupt. Just because they used the prophets after they were dead to weave their histories doesn't mean they were writing for God. And frankly Jesus has been forced into areas of the OT in justification for the Jews that converted out of Judaism to follow him. Naturally their new theology was colored by their old beliefs.

 

[Anguspure]

Human genetics does not allow for having "all the genetic information in their DNA for all of the races to exist".

On one hand we are to beleive in a "fact" that Natural Selection invented all of the kinds of living things on the face of the earth along with all of the molecular machinery that goes with it, and then on the other when it suits the argument we are told that some minor variations in skin pigmentation, size, hair type and physical features are not possible?
Look at animal breeding, in the same space of time we have gained over 340 distinct breeds of dog (most of them in the last couple of hundred years) that are so wildly varied that they would have trouble breeding together (except that they can because they are still dogs).
How absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Colter]

Yes he was, it was the religion of Nimrod also, but he is also beleived to have lived with Noah and Shem (Book of Jasher).

The scripture at best dates to Moses, the Hebrew priest finalized their rather dubious, exaggerated retrospective in Babylon. There is no scripture which predates Moses who was a reformer of the practices of his followers in Egypt.[/quote]
Many scholars agree that the book of Job in the Bible is older. "We know this because of the age of the Hebrew used. Languages evolve through time....The Hebrew in Job is so old it’s unique. It’s actually often called “Paleo-Hebrew.” Job was written in the time of the Patriarchs. Genesis was written, or compiled, by Moses, some 430+ years later! The difference in Job and Genesis is the same as our KJV and today!" (https://thescrolleaters.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/the-oldest-book-job-1-5/)

This sort of speculation comes with apriori assumption of Naturalism and is Godless, I prefer to stick with the story as it's presented by the Author. Besides if you want a great read about the Israelites that doesn't necessarily let the truth get in the way of a good story, the Book of Jasher makes much better Hollywood material, read this one. In contrast, the Torah is positively sober, down to earth and honest.[/QUOTE]
We agree on Job, it's a worldly wise response to the belief in providence. It's parabolic and does predate Moses.

Jasher is missing along with the ordinary secular books about Israelite history. The scripture survived, ironically the true history books mentioned in the scripture books didn't.

 

[Anguspure]

Jasher is missing along with the ordinary secular books about Israelite history. The scripture survived, ironically the true history books mentioned in the scripture books didn't.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Book...1475628349&sr=8-1&keywords=the+book+of+jasher
"There are 13 ancient history books that are mentioned and recommended by the Bible. The Ancient Book of Jasher is the only one of the 13 that still exists. It is referenced in Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18; and 2 Timothy 3:8. This volume contains the entire 91 chapters plus a detailed analysis of the supposed discrepancies, cross-referenced historical accounts, and detailed charts for ease of use. As with any history book there are typographical errors in the text but with three consecutive timelines running though the histories it is very easy to arrive at the exact dates of recorded events. It is not surprising that this ancient document confirms the Scripture and the chronology given in the Hebrew version of the Old Testament, once and for all settling the chronology differences between the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek Septuagint."

 

[Colter]

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Book...1475628349&sr=8-1&keywords=the+book+of+jasher
"There are 13 ancient history books that are mentioned and recommended by the Bible. The Ancient Book of Jasher is the only one of the 13 that still exists. It is referenced in Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18; and 2 Timothy 3:8. This volume contains the entire 91 chapters plus a detailed analysis of the supposed discrepancies, cross-referenced historical accounts, and detailed charts for ease of use. As with any history book there are typographical errors in the text but with three consecutive timelines running though the histories it is very easy to arrive at the exact dates of recorded events. It is not surprising that this ancient document confirms the Scripture and the chronology given in the Hebrew version of the Old Testament, once and for all settling the chronology differences between the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek Septuagint."

The Jasher you are peddling is a fraud, it's not the original referenced in the Bible. There have been several claims of translations of Jasger but they are fakes.

 

[JacksBratt]

You do realize that the contemporaries of the prophets abused and even murdered them? It was generally later generations that came to respect them. There's the church politicians and the common man and church leaders can be very corrupt. Just because they used the prophets after they were dead to weave their histories doesn't mean they were writing for God. And frankly Jesus has been forced into areas of the OT in justification for the Jews that converted out of Judaism to follow him. Naturally their new theology was colored by their old beliefs.

I don't think you understand. The Jewish people don't even recognize Jesus as their messiah. Why would they force Jesus into the OT if they don't see Him for who He is?.

How could they know to write about the feast of the passover and all the parallels that it has with Jesus life and the gospel?

How could they write of Jonah and him being in the belly of a fish for three days as it foreshadows Christ being in the tomb for three days?

Boaz, the kinsman who redeemed Ruth's inheritance, is a picture of Christ.

There are about 60 parallels of Joseph and Jesus alone.

No, you are in error here. The OT is, indeed, full of the foreshadowing of Christ and could not have been fabricated by a people that didn't even recognize Him when He came.

 

[JacksBratt]

The Jasher you are peddling is a fraud, it's not the original referenced in the Bible. There have been several claims of translations of Jasger but they are fakes.

Do you have access to the real book of Jasher? That would be great if you think the others are fake.

 

[Colter]

I don't think you understand. The Jewish people don't even recognize Jesus as their messiah. Why would they force Jesus into the OT if they don't see Him for who He is?.

How could they know to write about the feast of the passover and all the parallels that it has with Jesus life and the gospel?

How could they write of Jonah and him being in the belly of a fish for three days as it foreshadows Christ being in the tomb for three days?

Boaz, the kinsman who redeemed Ruth's inheritance, is a picture of Christ.

There are about 60 parallels of Joseph and Jesus alone.

No, you are in error here. The OT is, indeed, full of the foreshadowing of Christ and could not have been fabricated by a people that didn't even recognize Him when He came.

I said Jesus' followers, former Jews, not the false prophets of the unbelieving Jews.

Today some Jews still use their scripture to define the Messiah that will never come.

And yes, there is foreshadowing because the authors incorporated true prophetic utterances. Some of their writings contained truth. I said that long ago.

 

[Colter]

Do you have access to the real book of Jasher? That would be great if you think the others are fake.

You will need to go study up on that before you embarrass yourself.

 

[JacksBratt]

I said Jesus' followers, former Jews, not the false prophets of the unbelieving Jews.

Today some Jews still use their scripture to define the Messiah that will never come.

And yes, there is foreshadowing because the authors incorporated true prophetic utterances. Some of their writings contained truth. I said that long ago.

So, the scripture that foreshadowed Christ was written after the time of Christ, by believers of Christ, even though Christ Himself was able to read it during His time on earth, before they would have written it?

Or...

The people who believed Christ would come, and/or recognized Him when he came, wrote the foreshadowing scriptures centuries before He came? Would this not just make them accurate profits?

Or....

Jews who believed in Christ "altered" the old scriptures to incorporate Jesus into them, without anyone noticing these drastic changes?

 

[JacksBratt]

You will need to go study up on that before you embarrass yourself.

But you stated that the Book of Jasher that Anguspure was peddling was not the one quoted in the Bible.

This would lead me to believe that you have access to the real Book of Jasher. How else would you be able to recognize the fraudulent one?

How do you know which one is real? Or are you just bluffing?

You tell me to "go study up on that before I embarrass myself" yet you don't even have any proof of the product you are dismissing as a fraud and cannot produce a way to access the original.

So, where can we find the book of Jasher that is quoted in the Bible?
How can you prove that the one that Anguspure is "peddling" is a fake?

 

[pat34lee]

However, to decry scientific information along with mental and moral decay is illogical and incorrect. As Christians, we do a great disservice to ourselves and others by condemning 'science' as a bloc.

Science is an amoral thing, neither good nor bad in itself. The problems
begin when it mixes with money and politics, as with evolution, climate
change and pharmaceuticals, including vaccines.

Have you ever heard that the best run scientific experiments are not
repeatable most of the time? Add to that the pressures of getting a
billion dollar drug through trials and to market, and you have the
basis for corruption.

Who is paying for the evolution and climate hoaxes and OK'ing our
drugs? Governments who want us to think they are god, so they can
control us more easily.

 

[Anguspure]

The Jasher you are peddling is a fraud, it's not the original referenced in the Bible. There have been several claims of translations of Jasger but they are fakes.

Evidence please.

 

[Indent]

Science is an amoral thing, neither good nor bad in itself. The problems
begin when it mixes with money and politics, as with evolution, climate
change and pharmaceuticals, including vaccines.

Have you ever heard that the best run scientific experiments are not
repeatable most of the time? Add to that the pressures of getting a
billion dollar drug through trials and to market, and you have the
basis for corruption.

Who is paying for the evolution and climate hoaxes and OK'ing our
drugs? Governments who want us to think they are god, so they can
control us more easily.

There are unethical practices in some biopharmaceutical companies, for example, and it's obvious that there is a social aspect to "science." There are problems.

That said, to claim evolution and climate as "hoaxes" is just idiotic.

You also failed to acknowledge the unethical and scandalous issues surrounding politics, money, and Christian institutions.

Just because the Discovery Institute disseminates false and misleading information, or Christians are responsible for all kinds of violence and horror, do we claim that the Christian enterprise is illegitimate?

 

[Anguspure]

The Jasher you are peddling is a fraud, it's not the original referenced in the Bible. There have been several claims of translations of Jasger but they are fakes.

Here is an interesting discussion on the subject:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030206035425/http://stonekingdom.org/FMS/FMS23.html

You are correct that there have been fakes what is the evidence that this one?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Science is an amoral thing, neither good nor bad in itself.

So far, so good.

The problems begin when it mixes with money and politics, as with evolution, climate change and pharmaceuticals, including vaccines.

The problem with this statement is to assume all of what you list is the same problem.

There is nothing fraudulent in pharmaceutical research, the corruption begins with over regulation and 'favors' traded to get good drugs on the market.

Climate change has some actual basis. For instance, 15,000 years ago North America was under a sheet of ice some 1,000 feet thick, more in places. The 'fraud' is climate change is man made and cutting back on 'fossil fuels' will fix the problem.

By the way, the two frauds listed above are the result of the same political group.

The theory of evolution of itself has no moral value, one way or another. There are atheists who attempt to pretend there is no God by it, and 'religionists' who lie about it without any knowledge and then attempt to pretend all science is therefore a fraud.

Have you ever heard that the best run scientific experiments are not repeatable most of the time?

Where did THAT come from? Could you show one scientific experiment not repeatable?

Add to that the pressures of getting a billion dollar drug through trials and to market, and you have the basis for corruption.

You seem to be hung up on the pharmaceutical industry.

Who is paying for the evolution and climate hoaxes and OK'ing our drugs? Governments who want us to think they are god, so they can control us more easily.

Except 'evolution' is not part of that arrangement, Pat. Charles Darwin is credited (blamed?) for the theory of evolution, but he wasn't the first. There were other scientists prior to that. Charles Darwin died in 1882 and was English; so there's little chance the U. S. Government did much funding in that process.

There is most assuredly a faction in the U. S. Government who wants to suppress Christianity. If they use 'evolution' as a means of doing so, it is only because Christians have already done it. The lies concerning evolution and the age and history of the Earth and Universe are constantly being exposed and young people are disgusted at those lies.

Right here in River City.

 

[Colter]

So, the scripture that foreshadowed Christ was written after the time of Christ, by believers of Christ, even though Christ Himself was able to read it during His time on earth, before they would have written it?

Or...

The people who believed Christ would come, and/or recognized Him when he came, wrote the foreshadowing scriptures centuries before He came? Would this not just make them accurate profits?

Or....

Jews who believed in Christ "altered" the old scriptures to incorporate Jesus into them, without anyone noticing these drastic changes?

Now you have become argumentative and silly, deliberately misunderstanding me.

The scriptures of Judaism, as redacted and edited as they are, used true utterances of the real prophets from the past in the recasting of their history. It was understood at the time that those writings were pseudo-biographical writings were not written by God, it was only after the return that later generations considered them the authority of Judaism.

The expectations of a deliverer was derived from the shadowy references of the scripture. There were various interpretations as to the Messiah. Generally he was expected to be a type of priest, prophet, king like figure. Nowhere in Judaism was the Messiah an incarnate, human/divine being. Nowhere in Judaism was there a Trinity. Nowhere in Judaism did God and an eternal Son who was also God. Nowhere in Judaism was the Messiah to be a Pagan sacrifice who would go back to heaven for thousands of years.

 

[JacksBratt]

Now you have become argumentative and silly, deliberately misunderstanding me.

The scriptures of Judaism, as redacted and edited as they are, used true utterances of the real prophets from the past in the recasting of their history. It was understood at the time that those writings were pseudo-biographical writings were not written by God, it was only after the return that later generations considered them the authority of Judaism.

The expectations of a deliverer was derived from the shadowy references of the scripture. There were various interpretations as to the Messiah. Generally he was expected to be a type of priest, prophet, king like figure. Nowhere in Judaism was the Messiah an incarnate, human/divine being. Nowhere in Judaism was there a Trinity. Nowhere in Judaism did God and an eternal Son who was also God. Nowhere in Judaism was the Messiah to be a Pagan sacrifice who would go back to heaven for thousands of years.

There are 44 prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament.
The old testament was written before the time of Christ.
Christ used the scriptures of the OT and quoted them in His teaching and as His arguments against the temptations He faced from Satan himself in the desert.


Your argument and view that they were redacted and edited in order to fit some predetermined agenda is false.

The Holy Bible IS the word of God. God breathed. God inspired. God ordained. The ONLY scripture that Christians found their faith on. The words that are the ones mentioned when Christ stated

Matthew 24:35King James Version (KJV)

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

As in any argument with individuals that dismantle these scriptures as a way of eroding our basis for our arguments and supporting their own human ignorance and arrogance, it is fruitless. I am now done with this thread.

My views and beliefs are solidly based on this book of books. If anything contradicts these scriptures, I go with the scriptures. This is certainly the case for ANY blabbering of men, science, or delusions of either.

Good day.

 

[Colter]

Here is an interesting discussion on the subject:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030206035425/http://stonekingdom.org/FMS/FMS23.html

You are correct that there have been fakes what is the evidence that this one?

WE dont have the original to compare. The 1829 Jasher heavily contradicts the Bible books......but maybe its the Bible books that are wrong and not Jasher? The 1840 Jasher is less contradictory. Remember, this is one of a number of books sourced by the Bible books that no longer exist. The secular history books of the Israelites such as "The Doings of The Kings of Israel" and "The Doings of the Kings of Judah" vanished.