Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[2PhiloVoid]

You mean you didn't know? Everyone on earth was killed except an ancestor of the Hebrews who wrote the flood story. So Noah's kids went and founded the black race (Ham) the white race (Jepheth) and the Chinese (Shem). The authors didn't know anything about the Native Americans, Eskimos or Australian Aborigines.

... I sure hope you're joking here, Colter.

 

[JacksBratt]

You mean you didn't know? Everyone on earth was killed except an ancestor of the Hebrews who wrote the flood story. So Noah's kids went and founded the black race (Ham) the white race (Jepheth) and the Chinese (Shem). The authors didn't know anything about the Native Americans, Eskimos or Australian Aborigines.

Did you miss the first part of my response to your post? "To yourself be true and let your heart be your guide". Not the best way to go through life....

So, you believe that this just happened overnight? All of a sudden Noah has an oriental grandson and a negro grandchild?

The fact that Noah's son's, and their wives, were so close to the origin of the human race and the fact that Noah, his wife and son's were "of perfect generations", is the proof that these eight people had all the genetic information in their DNA for all of the races to exist. They were perfect in their generations, and were able to have, at the very least, cousins marry and have perfectly normal children.

This was no different than Adam and Eve with a twist. The three wives, chosen by Noah, for his sons, were not perfect in their generations.

But, then again, you probably don't believe in any of this at all.

 

[Colter]

Did you miss the first part of my response to your post? "To yourself be true and let your heart be your guide". Not the best way to go through life....

So, you believe that this just happened overnight? All of a sudden Noah has an oriental grandson and a negro grandchild?

The fact that Noah's son's, and their wives, were so close to the origin of the human race and the fact that Noah, his wife and son's were "of perfect generations", is the proof that these eight people had all the genetic information in their DNA for all of the races to exist. They were perfect in their generations, and were able to have, at the very least, cousins marry and have perfectly normal children.

This was no different than Adam and Eve with a twist. The three wives, chosen by Noah, for his sons, were not perfect in their generations.

But, then again, you probably don't believe in any of this at all.

I do belive in the people Cain was afraid of out in the world where he found a wife in the land of Nod.

 

[Colter]

... I sure hope you're joking here, Colter.

No, that's what the Bible teaches.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Did you miss the first part of my response to your post? "To yourself be true and let your heart be your guide". Not the best way to go through life....

So, you believe that this just happened overnight? All of a sudden Noah has an oriental grandson and a negro grandchild?

The fact that Noah's son's, and their wives, were so close to the origin of the human race and the fact that Noah, his wife and son's were "of perfect generations", is the proof that these eight people had all the genetic information in their DNA for all of the races to exist. They were perfect in their generations, and were able to have, at the very least, cousins marry and have perfectly normal children.

This was no different than Adam and Eve with a twist. The three wives, chosen by Noah, for his sons, were not perfect in their generations.

But, then again, you probably don't believe in any of this at all.

Human genetics does not allow for having "all the genetic information in their DNA for all of the races to exist".

 

[JacksBratt]

I do belive in the people Cain was afraid of out in the world where he found a wife in the land of Nod.

There were no people of the land of Nod. Read it again. Cain took his wife to Nod. He did not go to Nod and find a wife.

Here:
Genesis 4:16,17 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17�And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

From this link we get the following, which I agree with:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ct-of-evolution.7967713/page-50#post-70240480

As there may have been a lapse of many, many years before Cain’s marriage, during such a period—130 years between the birth of Cain and Seth, the substitute for slain Abel—some of the unnamed sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were likely born. As there were no other humans on earth apart from their descendants, Cain, attracted to one of his sisters, took her to wife. Whoever the sister was who chose to go into banishment with her branded brother, she deserves credit for her willingness to share Cain’s curse and wanderings. It is significant that they called their first child Enoch, which means “dedicated,” and may suggest a change in Cain’s character. The word is akin to “train” as found in the phrase, “Train up a child” (Proverbs 22:6), and is also used in the dedication of a new house (Deuteronomy 20:5). Cain called the city he built after the name of his son “Enoch,” or “dedicated,” and, as Ellicott comments—

In old times the ideas of training and dedication were closely allied, because teaching generally took the forms of initiation into sacred rites, and one so initiated was regarded as a consecrated person. Though, then, the [Cain’s] wife may have had most to do with giving the name, yet we see in it a purpose that the child should be a trained and consecrated man; and Cain must now have put off those fierce and violent habits which had led him into so terrible a crime. We may add that this prepares our minds for the rapid advance of the Cainites in the arts of civilization, for the very remarkable step next taken by Cain—a fit spot where his offspring should dwell together in some dedicated common abode.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No, that's what the Bible teaches.

Wow. Although I know what you have stated applies to more than just the "Curse of Ham" position, I'd like to briefly state that the insinuation of Ham having given "birth" to the peoples of Africa is a position which has been debunked for quite some time now. If you'd like a reference to a book that deals with this issue, I'll be more than happy to supply it. (And that's all I'll say here, since we're focusing on Evolution and Christian faith.)

2PhiloVoid

 

[Colter]

I disagree and so does the fragmented narrative used to make the creation story.

Cain fears people out in the world, God agrees and puts a mark on Cain. The authors of Genesis didn't know the earth was billions of years old.

13Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15But the Lord said to him, “Not soe ; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,f east of Eden.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Archie, we all know that red is Satan's color of choice, so if you live in a little red house, or drive a red car or truck, then we will know (... we'll "all" know because of the unmistakable evidence) what this really says about you!

2Philovoid

Philo, that's funnier than you think. I own and live in a brick house - which is red. And my primary car is a shiny red Mustang. No doubt the Mustang is a sign of evil as well.

As the Russian philosopher once said, "What it is I can said?"

 

[Colter]

Wow. Although I know what you have stated applies to more than just the "Curse of Ham" position, I'd like to briefly state that the insinuation of Ham having given "birth" to the peoples of Africa is a position which has been debunked for quite some time now. If you'd like a reference to a book that deals with this issue, I'll be more than happy to supply it. (And that's all I'll say here, since we're focusing on Evolution and Christian faith.)

2PhiloVoid

I was responding to the obsurdity of the story if Noah's flood which I believe is an invention if the Hebrew preist hood. Man is at least 1,000,000 years old. Hominids of various kinds even older.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I was responding to the obsurdity of the story if Noah's flood which I believe is an invention if the Hebrew preist hood. Man is at least 1,000,000 years old. Hominids of various kinds even older.

Ok. That's fine, but even if we don't take Noah's flood literally, we should understand that the Scripture isn't saying that Ham fathered African peoples of darker skin. I just want to be clear on that, even if we both believe that the theory of evolution is true.

 

[Colter]

Ok. That's fine, but even if we don't take Noah's flood literally, we should understand that the Scripture isn't saying that Ham fathered African peoples of darker skin. I just want to be clear on that, even if we both believe that the theory of evolution is true.

By default every race and every living thing on the earth today would come through Noah and his amazing boat adventure.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Philo, that's funnier than you think. I own and live in a brick house - which is red. And my primary car is a shiny red Mustang. No doubt the Mustang is a sign of evil as well.

As the Russian philosopher once said, "What it is I can said?"

Aha!!!!!!! I knew there was something to that Russky mustache of yours! (...Seriously, I'm glad we can at least take a moment occasionally to have a laugh among ourselves.) Enjoy your beautiful life, Archie!

Here's a little tidbit you may already know (just thought I'd throw it in for good measure):

Red is a prominent color in Russian culture and history. The Russian word for red, krasni, was, in the past, also used to describe something beautiful. Today, krasni is used to indicate something that is red in color, while krasivi is the modern Russian word for “beautiful.” However, many important sites and cultural artifacts still reflect the combined usage of the word, and a name that incorporates this root may still be considered something elevated in status. In fact, the Russian word for excellent - prekrasni - shares the root kras with these other words.​

Quote from: http://goeasteurope.about.com/od/russianculture/tp/Red-In-Russian-Culture.htm

 

[2PhiloVoid]

By default every race and every living thing on the earth today would come through Noah and his amazing boat adventure.

Right, but there are other theological and social issues "tied into" some of the logistics of the Biblical narrative, and we need to get them right as best we can, even if we don't take the Bible ultra-literally in those textual places related to Noah and his succeeding generations.

 

[Anguspure]

Blind faith means, Abraham indeed did trust that his descendants would eventually inhabit the land, but he knew nothing of the purpose of the subsequent Jews hosting the Son of God incarnate on earth. The Jews had NO concept of a Triune deity with a creator Son who would incarnate as human and divine on earth, returning to heaven with all power and authority given to him

This is not what I would call "blind faith". When Abraham beleived the Lord, Abraham was trusting a faithful friend of many years for the fulfillment of a promise. He was also leaning on the experience of his ancestors of and contempories among which were Noah and Shem.

His faith was not blind, it was based upon thoughtful and faithful consideration of the relationship that existed.

Some scientist are believers, some atheistic, some just scientist, but that doesn't discount their findings.

This is true and anything else would constitute an ad hominem fallacy.

Its not God that changes, it's mans understanding of God that changes.

As in any relationship understanding grows with closeness and acts of trust, over time. In the case of God we are also fortunate that we also have the writings of those who experienced Him first hand through Christ Jesus and: Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love (1 John 4).

 

[Anguspure]

I disagree and so does the fragmented narrative used to make the creation story.

Cain fears people out in the world, God agrees and puts a mark on Cain. The authors of Genesis didn't know the earth was billions of years old.

13Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15But the Lord said to him, “Not soe ; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,f east of Eden.

This all happens in what time frame?

How old were Cain and Able when these things happened, and how many siblings did they have in the mean time?

Why do people think this all happened as quickly as they read it?

Do suppose that Cain set off into the wilderness on his own? Genesis often speaks of a person doing something singulalry when clearly this was not the case.

I would suggest that given the prolific nature of early human reproduction that there was more than enough time for the children of Adam and Eve to have spread out on the Earth to make these statements in Genesis reveal that the towns , groups of people and wives referred to relatives of Cain and not some other seperately created group.

 

[Colter]

This all happens in what time frame?

How old were Cain and Able when these things happened, and how many siblings did they have in the mean time?

Why do people think this all happened as quickly as they read it?

Do suppose that Cain set off into the wilderness on his own? Genesis often speaks of a person doing something singulalry when clearly this was not the case.

I would suggest that given the prolific nature of early human reproduction that there was more than enough time for the children of Adam and Eve to have spread out on the Earth to make these statements in Genesis reveal that the towns , groups of people and wives referred to relatives of Cain and not some other seperately created group.

To answer your question, considering we have the bones of man that lived millions of years ago and Adam and Eve materialized just 6,000 years ago, Cain had more than his siblings to contend with.

 

[Colter]

This is not what I would call "blind faith". When Abraham beleived the Lord, Abraham was trusting a faithful friend of many years for the fulfillment of a promise. He was also leaning on the experience of his ancestors of and contempories among which were Noah and Shem.

His faith was not blind, it was based upon thoughtful and faithful consideration of the relationship that existed.


This is true and anything else would constitute an ad hominem fallacy.


As in any relationship understanding grows with closeness and acts of trust, over time. In the case of God we are also fortunate that we also have the writings of those who experienced Him first hand through Christ Jesus and: Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love (1 John 4).

Abraham was a believer in his fathers religion beyond the rivers before his conversion to Melchizedeks teaching. The scripture at best dates to Moses, the Hebrew priest finalized their rather dubious, exaggerated retrospective in Babylon. There is no scripture which predates Moses who was a reformer of the practices of his followers in Egypt. We can glean something of the pre-exile beliefs and practices of Moses group from the reforms and rules he instituted. So this idea that they all had an understanding going back to Adam is colored by the Hollywood type of story that the Hebrews wrote about themselves which also informs our current historical worldview.

 

[JacksBratt]

Abraham was a believer in his fathers religion beyond the rivers before his conversion to Melchizedeks teaching. The scripture at best dates to Moses, the Hebrew priest finalized their rather dubious, exaggerated retrospective in Babylon. There is no scripture which predates Moses who was a reformer of the practices of his followers in Egypt. We can glean something of the pre-exile beliefs and practices of Moses group from the reforms and rules he instituted. So this idea that they all had an understanding going back to Adam is colored by the Hollywood type of story that the Hebrews wrote about themselves which also informs our current historical worldview.

Just "wow".

"exaggerated retrospective" "colored by the Hollywood type of story" "that the Hebrews wrote about themselves"

How is all of this possible when the OT is a collection of history that foreshadows Christ, parallels the life of Christ and has metaphors of the actions and events in Christs life woven throughout it's pages. All of this from a people that don't even recognize their messiah, even today.

Why would they write such masterfully crafted tales and yarns about a Son of God that they don't acknowledge?

You do realize that as the saying goes:

In the Old Testament...... Christ concealed.
In the New, Christ revealed.

This collection of scriptures was written by men who were inspired by the Holy God of this universe. Every jot and tittle is specifically planned and set to paper, by men but breathed by God. There is no other explanation for the wisdom, prophesy and teaching that it contains that is ageless, timeless, collection of scripture that will live forever.

To say this was merely a collection of words put together by men with a mission, is the utmost display of ignorance of the books contained in the Bible and their content.

 

[JacksBratt]

Human genetics does not allow for having "all the genetic information in their DNA for all of the races to exist".

If Human DNA cannot even achieve the production of all the different races, then how in the world did one single celled organism result in, not only all the human races, but the entire race, speciation, type, kind, shape, color and characteristics of every organism on this planet.