Christian Wicca

[Lifesaver]

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Yes, and the food that endures, is the flesh of Jesus Christ, which He commanded us to eat.
I'm not going to argue anymore. If you want to go against Jesus, you are free to do it. He didn't prevent His disciples from doing so.

The only reason you say this is because of additions made by the catholic church, not because of scripture given by God through his people.

Who assembled the Scriptures, infallibly, was the Catholic Church. Who brought the Scriptures intact until today, was the Catholic Church. Who still teaches the original and true doctrines of God, is the Catholic Church.

And remember, THE MEMBERS OF GODS FAMILY ARE THE CHURCH, NOT SOME BUILDING WITH LEADERS CONTROLLING AND DICTATING GODS WORD!

Crispie, by your own admission, your "church" can fall into error, even though its followers, like you, are guided by the Holy Spirit.
With that admitted, your "church" has already lost part of the truth, and the gates of Hell have already prevailed against it.
But Jesus promised us that this would never happen.

Clearly, then, what you call "church" is not the true Church which He estabilished.

 

[Crispie]

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

You think that eating bread becomes Gods flesh and in turn gives you everlasting life, but no my friend, it is not what you eat that gives you everlasting life, but it is Jesus Sacrfice, that will get us into heaven. Do you really think you will live forever just because you eat bread that you think becomes Jesus flesh?

 

[Dark_Lite]

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

You think that eating bread becomes Gods flesh and in turn gives you everlasting life, but no my friend, it is not what you eat that gives you everlasting life, but it is Jesus Sacrfice, that will get us into heaven. Do you really think you will live forever just because you eat bread that you think becomes Jesus flesh?

.............

Now THIS has got to be the WEIRDEST one I've seen in a long time.

 

[Lifesaver]

Prayer is a right given to all of us, if it coincides with Gods plan, he will allow it, no Saint has special prayer rights over us

Epistle of James, 5:16 (second part)
The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Once again, the Bible supports Church, and not Chick.

 

[CJ.23]

This has nothing to do with Christian Wicca, a movement so obscure i have never even heard of it before tonight. Yet it exists. Personally i can't understand it at all; Wicca was invented in the 1950's, is a New Religious Movement, and it's early adherents were clearly opposed to Christianity, or at best indifferent to it. I recommend the excellent scholastic works of Dr Ronald Hutton on the origins of Wicca.

I find the claim Catholics are not Christians simply incomprehensible; but then I recall that many conservative Catholics deny salvation is possible outside the Church, though that is clearly not the teaching of the Vatican. I think it is important for a discussion to take place, but basically I'm gonna come down with the catholics here. The criticisms you are making, mariolatry, indulgences, etc etc are all five hundred years old and long since irrelevant. If you don't believe me, try and buty an indulgence some time. I think the market pretty much died with Tetzel.

cj x

 

[Crispie]

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


"Righteousness" is something God gave you when you first believed on Jesus Christ. Righteousness is not something you earned or earn, but is something freely given to you from God by grace (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:15).

 

[CJ.23]

And as to Christian Wiccans - well they aren't wiccans. Most people who claim to be wiccans are not, because Wicca is a mystery religion which requires initiation and a line of descent from the founders of one of the major 'denominations' - the originals, Dardnerian, dating from 50's England, the later Alexandrian (named after Alex and MAxine Saunders, 60's and 70's England) or the lesbian Dianic Covens. There are of course traditionalists, but they are Witches not Wiccans and heartily dislike being called Wiccans. In fact calling someone a Wiccan is a pretty strong term of abuse in some Neo-Pagan and Occult circles, and certainly among many traditional witches I have known.

Wicca also requires adult participation. There are no teen wiccans, or I sincerely hope not, as initiation rituals involve nudity and symbolic whipping and bondage, and anyone performing them with a minor is going to get locked up. What you have at the moment is many people who have taken the imagery or symbolism or ideas of the Wiccan movement, and who identify with it, but who are in fact NOT in the strict sense part of the Wiccan community of believers. They are good peaople, sincere people, and many are very clever and devout pagans I am sure, but they are not actually Wiccans.

Anyone, noone will pay the blindest bit of notice to this observation, and anyway what would i know about it?

I shall slink off and be quiet. Have fun!
cj x

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

Indulgence is not the forgiveness of sin. It is the remission of temporal punishment for sins already forgiven. See? You were dead set against something you didn't have the slightest idea what it was.

As I recall, I was taught that indulgences reduced the amount of time someone would spend in purgatory. I guess I just equated it with forgiving sins.

But it still doesn't seem Biblical. Where in the Bible does Christ tell the Church to do such as thing? Same thing with Purgatory. I'm guessing it's in one of the Apocryphal books.

God answers the prayers of His righteous followers than those who are not so good. The saints were particularly Godly, and therefore their prayers (especially those of Mary, who was sinless her whole life)

Can you please tell me where this is found in the Bible? I remembered someone saying something about Mary being sinless somewhere else, but I didn't address the issue then. Mary was not sinless. She was born a sinful human being like everyone else.

have much more probability of being answered than ours.

So if I sin less than my buddy Tom, then my prayers have a higher chance of being answered? Again, please show me a Bible verse.

You pray for your friends, I'm sure, so you can't have any objection about someone praying for someone else (which is exactly what the saints do for us).

I have no objection to praying for others. When you say it like that, I can understand why you would pray to the saints. I still have some issues I'd like to address, but it makes a little bit more sense.

More valuable information here:
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/praying.htm

I'll check it out.


I'm guessing your Bible verses (if you have them) come from Apocryphal Books. However, I would still like some verses.

 

[Lifesaver]

I find the claim Catholics are not Christians simply incomprehensible; but then I recall that many conservative Catholics deny salvation is possible outside the Church, though that is clearly not the teaching of the Vatican.

No, it is a dogmatic teaching, and binding on all Catholics, thate there is no salvation outside the Church. The Vatican has always taught and reinforced this teaching.
What changes is the understanding of what constitutes and what does not constitute "outside the Church", which the II Vatican Council enlightened a bit, but still nothing too different from what was already believed before.

 

[CJ.23]

Romans 5
"Righteousness" is something God gave you when you first believed on Jesus Christ. Righteousness is not something you earned or earn, but is something freely given to you from God by grace (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:15).

Agreed. Justification is by Faith. Works follow the justification, and do not earn it. If works and sacraments were sufficient, then the Law of the Old Testament would have been plenty, and Jesus would not have had to die. However the sacraments can serve as a reminder and powerful expression of God's grace, and he is in some sense present in them "when two or more are gathered in my name". We can all earn that salvation, whether in the Catholic Church or another.

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

By the way, I do not believe that Catholics are not Christians. I have nothing personal against Catholics (I have a friend who is Catholic). I do have some doctrinal issues with Catholicism, but I have no ill feelings towards Catholics. I may make some jokes occasionally though.

 

[CJ.23]

No, it is a dogmatic teaching, and binding on all Catholics, thate there is no salvation outside the Church. The Vatican has always taught and reinforced this teaching.
What changes is the understanding of what constitutes and what does not constitute "outside the Church", which the II Vatican Council enlightened a bit, but still nothing too different from what was already believed before.

It allows that Protestants can be members of the Church, that is that the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant are not the same though?
Can you clarify the Church's posittion please?

cj x

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

Agreed. Justification is by Faith. Works follow the justification, and do not earn it. If works and sacraments were sufficient, then the Law of the Old Testament would have been plenty, and Jesus would not have had to die. However the sacraments can serve as a reminder and powerful expression of God's grace, and he is in some sense present in them "when two or more are gathered in my name". We can all earn that salvation, whether in the Catholic Church or another.

Good works is a result of Faith. Faith, and Faith alone, gets a person into Heaven. Good Works may sweeten our reward in Heavan, but they will not earn us our place in Heaven. If you believe good works earns you your salvation even without faith, then you must believe that evil deeds, or lack of good works, will lose you your place in heaven even if you do have faith.

That is my stance on the Fait and Works issue.

 

[Lifesaver]

I'm guessing your Bible verses (if you have them) come from Apocryphal Books. However, I would still like some verses.

Your questions about prayers to saints are dealt with in that text, or if you have further doubts I have further sources.

I'll comment on your use of "apocryphal".

By that I assume you mean the deuterocanonicals, which were part of the Bible until Luther took them away. The Bible has 73 books, and if yours has any less, it is incomplete.

Of course, protestants have a justification for this ready, but it only makes their case even worse!

They claim to be following the Jewish tradition of OT books.
And indeed, they are.
In about 100 AD, the non-converted Jews, in order to have a basis on which to not even consider the NT books as valid and Jesus as the Messiah, took 7 books out of their canon, because they were written after a certain date.
This is what protestants base themselves on to justify their incomplete Bible.

But don't you see how ludicrous this is? Why not go all the way and, to keep in line with the "precious" post-Christan Jewish created tradition, throw the New Testament away as well?!

 

[Crispie]

Good works is a result of Faith. Faith, and Faith alone, gets a person into Heaven. Good Works may sweeten our reward in Heavan, but they will not earn us our place in Heaven. If you believe good works earns you your salvation even without faith, then you must believe that evil deeds, or lack of good works, will lose you your place in heaven even if you do have faith.

That is my stance on the Fait and Works issue.

 

[Cerridwen]

Hey~

]And as to Christian Wiccans - well they aren't wiccans.

This has been discussed already, if you'll read the previous posts. They aren't Wiccans & they aren't Christians, they are something else entirely.

Most people who claim to be wiccans are not, because Wicca is a mystery religion which requires initiation and a line of descent from the founders of one of the major 'denominations' - the originals, Dardnerian, dating from 50's England, the later Alexandrian (named after Alex and MAxine Saunders, 60's and 70's England) or the lesbian Dianic Covens.

Initiation is only "required" in traditional Wicca. There are several branches that do not require initiation, & there are many solitaries as well, who are uninitiated. Dianic Wiccans are not "lesbians", they are Goddess worshippers. Nor does Wicca require a line of descent. Btw, it may have just been a typo, but the word is Gardnerian, not Dardnerian. The two traditional paths of Wicca are Alexandrian & Gardnerian. All the others branch from these two, including Seax Wicca, the brainchild of Raymond Buckland. Much akin to the branching of various Prostestant faiths from Catholicism-they all believe basically the same things, but have different traditions & go about their worship in sometimes completely different ways.

There are of course traditionalists, but they are Witches not Wiccans and heartily dislike being called Wiccans. In fact calling someone a Wiccan is a pretty strong term of abuse in some Neo-Pagan and Occult circles, and certainly among many traditional witches I have known.

This has been discussed as well on other threads in this forum. And the term that is offensive is calling someone a "fluffy Wiccan". Many traditional Witches associate the whole "Teen Witch" craze with this term (as well as we traditional Wiccans), & none of us like the way it commercializes & trivializes our religion. Wicca is a different religion than traditional Witchcraft, & traditional Witches don't usually follow things like the Rede, so calling them Wiccan is misrepresenting their religion.

Wicca also requires adult participation.

Not all Wicca does. There are many working groups who include children in Sabbat rites as well, & there are several books available for raising Wiccan and/or Pagan children.

There are no teen wiccans, or I sincerely hope not, as initiation rituals involve nudity and symbolic whipping and bondage, and anyone performing them with a minor is going to get locked up.

Intiation does not require nudity. It can be done clothed or not. Mine was clothed. Symbolic whipping is simply that symbolic, and, no, no minors are initiated into traditional (Alexandrian or Gardnerian) Wiccan covens. Neither does it require "bondage" in the sense that you imply. When initiated, the initiate's hands & feet are "neither bound nor free"-it's an excercise in trust, which of high importance in any traditional coven.

What you have at the moment is many people who have taken the imagery or symbolism or ideas of the Wiccan movement, and who identify with it, but who are in fact NOT in the strict sense part of the Wiccan community of believers. They are good peaople, sincere people, and many are very clever and devout pagans I am sure, but they are not actually Wiccans.

While I'll agree with that to an extent, as there are those types in any religious comunity, but one doesn't have to be traditionally initiated to be considered a Wiccan.

Anyone, noone will pay the blindest bit of notice to this observation, and anyway what would i know about it?

I think you are part right, but not completely, and I am paying the slightest bit of notice, since I am a traditional Wiccan.

By the way, Hutton is a fantastic author, & TotM is always one that I recommend. And of course, I recommend the Alexandrian Farrars' books. (Well, now Janet's & Gavin Bone's, since Stewart has passed on)

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

Here is the LCMS stance on the Apocrypha (from www.lcms.org)

Q. What is the Lutheran Church's position or teaching regarding the Apocrypha as found in Roman Catholic Bibles?

A. Martin Luther regarded the Apocrypha as "useful historical" writings which Christians should be familiar with and which should even be read in public worship from time to time. But neither Luther nor the Lutheran church has ever regarded these writings as canonical--i.e., as part of the inspired and inerrant Word of God--since they do not meet the criteria discernible from the Scriptures themselves regarding what constitutes those books belonging to the canon of Scripture.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the verses.

 

[Atomagenesis]

Well that's interesting because they were used and considered to be inspired by the Holy Sprit for 1400 years in the Catholic Church until Martin Luther decided he didn't think they were inspired.

 

[Lifesaver]

It allows that Protestants can be members of the Church, that is that the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant are not the same though?
Can you clarify the Church's posittion please?

I'll try to.

First: no, it does not mean protestants are members of the Church. Pope Pius IX's encyclical, Syllabus (a list of many of the errors condemned by the Church), makes this clear.
Read number 18
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

More recently, we read in Pope Paul VI's Lumen Gentium (http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-...ost_id=42&page_id=3804672&query=lumen+gentium):

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

What does this tell us the state of protestants?
Indeed, many of them are linked to the Church, and will be saved. Which are those? The decisive sentence is this one:
In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end.
So, even though not in full communion with the Church yet, there are those who are linked to it. What do these true disciples of Christ do? They are led, by the Holy Spirit, towards union.
When the pope speaks of union, can it possibly be an union in the middle ground between Catholicism and Protestantism? No, because that would mean the Church is wrong in some things, and therefore not the true Church of Christ.
The only possible union that can happen among Christians is the union IN the Catholic Church, indeed as one flock under one shepherd. Those who are disciples of Christ, have the desire, aroused by the Holy Spirit, of joining the Catholic Church; towards unity in the manner determined by Christ.

And let's not forget the problem of ignorance; of those who, even though honest and zealous, keep themselves away from the Church because they don't know or understand it well enough, through no fault of their own.

In the end, it is impossible to know who will be saved and who won't, even among non-Christians. But to think that a Catholic, a Protestant and a Wiccan are on the same standing is not true.

 

[Crispie]

Well, why would God add books to a bible that is already finished? When you say it is inspired by the Holy Spirit it has to coincide with scripture still. You cant come up with things and call it truth unless you for example an apostle(Scripture wise). Though, in times like now, people can just claim old documents to be made by apostles, even when it wasnt, unfortunately.