Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Andrewn]

reading?? dont see argument

Beside the quotations that you and I have presented so far, there are many other passages in which Isaac of Nineveh expresses his belief in UR:

The Congress Catches Fire!

 

[Saint Steven]

Do we criticize the Lord's parable, now? Did He misspeak? Why should anyone doubt that the Lord meant exactly what He said: that those who have done what God wants will go to eternal life. We are put in this world in order to be God's hands and feet that administer justice to the "little people." How else is the power of Christ's agape supposed to be experienced in the world? What is the value of faith be without faithfulness?

Criticize? No.
However, it is an incomplete gospel to claim that salvation is by good works alone. Right? Yet, that's what we get in Mathew 25:31-46.

Furthermore, my point was that those who put Mathew 25:46 on a pedestal wouldn't accept such an incomplete gospel. Some call that cherry-picking.

Saint Steven said: ↑
The Matthew 25:46 proof-text is embraced while ignoring the implications of the balance of the passage. (Mathew 25:31-46)

If those who cling to verse 46 don't believe we can be saved by good deeds to the needy, maybe they shouldn't put verse 46 on a pedestal. It's a package deal. The passage clearly says (as mistranslated) that those who failed to do good deeds for the needy will suffer "eternal punishment", while those who do look after the needy will enjoy "eternal life".

Those who put verse 46 on a pedestal best sign up to help at the soup kitchen and give regularly to local church charities to help those in need. Otherwise, they're toast. - lol (according to their own claims)

 

[Andrewn]

Not so. "None are righteouse, NO not One"! Throughout Romans 9, Paul systematically shows that God’s sovereign election has been in force from the very beginning. He begins with a crucial statement: “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6). This means that not all people of ethnic Israel (that is, those descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) belong to true Israel (the elect of God). Reviewing the history of Israel, Paul shows that God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. Just in case anyone thinks that God was choosing these individuals based on the faith or good works they would do in the future, he adds, “Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (Romans 9:11). Who are the elect of God? | GotQuestions.org

You seem to be a Calvinist and discussions with Calvinists are generally pointless. If you're interested in seeing why all Christianity rejects, except Calvinists, reject your point of view, you will find a lot of articles online explaining how the passages you quote should be interpreted. You can also read the following article:

Conditional preservation of the saints - Wikipedia

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Absolutely sick when you realize that the Church concocted this mental illness to control the masses. The long-term damage still rages today, centuries later. Imagine what it was like in the days when heretics were being burned at the stake.

Not sure if the Church concocted it, but they certainly developed it into an art form. Nothing like the exquisite sadism of torturing someone in the mind and spirit while persuading them it's for their own good. Spiritual gaslighting.

If you see me laughing, it's just to keep from crying.

 

[Andrewn]

Steve, do you agree that According to 1 Corinthians 15:42-55, the believer’s resurrection, when “the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,” is the moment when death itself is defeated, that is, “swallowed up in victory.”. But as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 makes clear...... “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (v26), which is leaving no more enemies in existence.

How is death defeated when people are subjected to the 2nd death?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It was a real thing. I kid you not. Here's the link.
Evangelism Explosion - EE International | Homepage

It was created as the ultimate tool for spreading the gospel. And I remember the emphasis at church about seamless apologetics. To be able to answer any objection to the gospel message.

I also remember going door-to-door in an apartment complex sharing with people. A church was started in the community room at the complex. The group eventually rented a larger church building and finally built their own building. It still exists today to my knowledge. I wonder if any of the original members are still there. I attended that church for a short time. (30-40 years ago)


Saint Steven said: ↑
I wonder of that was EE ? (Evangelism Explosion)

The five finger signs, it could be great if they replaced the Avon-calling routine with a bit of true gospel...imho.

 

[Saint Steven]

What is wrong with repentance? Didn't the Apostle Peter ask people to repent?

Act 3:19 Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away,20 and that the Lord may grant you times of refreshment and send you the Messiah already appointed for you, Jesus,

I agree.
Nothing wrong with repentance. I encourage it.
And not just for the benefit in the afterlife, but in the here and now as well.

But my point was that salvation is something God does, not something we do. Does that make sense?

The gospel of UR says that everyone is saved by God already, but will realize it over time. (each in turn) Repentance is a key part of that. But we need to keep the cart after the horse. Eventually every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. On earth, in heaven and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead) Philippians 2:10-11

Saint Steven said: ↑
It's difficult to get away from this line of thinking that makes salvation something we do, instead of something God does. As if it is something we can accept or reject. As if we are in the driver's seat of our own destiny in the afterlife. And that God will "honor" our decision to reject him and will allow us to enter into destruction by our own choice.

 

[Andrewn]

History before it happens is found all throughout the Scriptures. One such relevant verse is what the Lord said he will say to some people: "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). Jesus could not have been more clear in stating that some people will end up in eternal fire. This should be enough to refute universalism, but there are many other proofs as well: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life "(Matt. 25:46).

It is clear that evil people will go to eternal punishment. Now plz look at the meaning of eternal in post #1970.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Here's a 3 min video on Steve Gregg's homepage that explains it:

And if after watching that anyone still believes the earth is in motion, they need the evangelism explosion of sound doctrine.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It is clear that evil people will go to eternal punishment. Now plz look at the meaning of eternal in post #1970.

This is the right page to give a 'universal salvation 101 lecture'.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not sure if the Church concocted it, but they certainly developed it into an art form. Nothing like the exquisite sadism of torturing someone in the mind and spirit while persuading them it's for their own good. Spiritual gaslighting.

If you see me laughing, it's just to keep from crying.

From my POV it started with a Western/Latin doctrinal bias that was projected onto the Bible translation process (Augustine at the helm) which then was preached and enforced. A progression that led to "heretics" (declared doctrinal dissenters) being burned at the stake. How twisted and bizarre is that? A spiritual poison that was concocted from my view. Perhaps the word "concocted" carries a slightly different meaning for you? Perhaps there's a more appropriate word. (send help - lol)

 

[Saint Steven]

The five finger signs, it could be great if they replaced the Avon-calling routine with a bit of true gospel...imho.

Yes, I have less of a problem with evangelism, and more of a problem with Evangelicalism.

Evangelism netted a lot of fish, but I think they ended up in the wrong boat. Our job is to invite them to the right boat. Unfortunately, that sounds like walking the plank during "Shark Week" (TV reference) to most of them. - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, I have less of a problem with evangelism, and more of a problem with Evangelicalism.

Evangelism netted a lot of fish, but I think they ended up in the wrong boat. Our job is to invite them to the right boat. Unfortunately, that sounds like walking the plank during "Shark Week" (TV reference) to most of them. - lol

Lol, sadly the Church may have jumped the shark when it settled on ECT and/or penal substitution.

 

[Saint Steven]

Lol, sadly the Church may have jumped the shark when it settled on ECT and/or penal substitution.

Wow, "jumped the shark"; that's a most curious phrase. Not familiar.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

 

[Andrewn]

However, it is an incomplete gospel to claim that salvation is by good works alone. Right? Yet, that's what we get in Mathew 25:31-46. Furthermore, my point was that those who put Mathew 25:46 on a pedestal wouldn't accept such an incomplete gospel. Some call that cherry-picking.

The fact of the matter is that only Christians volunteer at the soup kitchen and give regularly to local church charities to help those in need. Mother Theresa was amazed to see that no one helped the "little people" in the streets of Calcutta. Can the non-Godly be motivated to help the "little people"? I doubt it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

From my POV it started with a Western/Latin doctrinal bias that was projected onto the Bible translation process (Augustine at the helm) which then was preached and enforced. A progression that led to "heretics" (declared doctrinal dissenters) being burned at the stake. How twisted and bizarre is that? A spiritual poison that was concocted from my view. Perhaps the word "concocted" carries a slightly different meaning for you? Perhaps there's a more appropriate word. (send help - lol)

That's where I actually agree with Der Alte (shock, horror!). The concept of a nasty roasting afterlife firepit was bandied around by the Pharisaical Jews. Probably concocted out of the Valley of Hinnom pagan Canaanitish experiences mentioned in 2 Kings 23 etc, Moloch worship and used for political control. That's why Jesus I believe works to restore the truth of Gehenna - he accepts it does exist, but it's the hospital not the prison.

But of course the Latin types were already leaning towards 'gloom and doom', and so it didn't take much for the devil to seduce them back to the bbq idea. But boy did they pick it up and run with it!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Mother Theresa was amazed to see that no one helped the "little people" in the streets of Calcutta. Can the non-Godly be motivated to help the "little people"? I doubt it.

That has more to do with education.

 

[Saint Steven]

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Wow. What the Church won't do to retain subscribers. - lol
Believe or burn. (an offer you can't refuse, from a brand you trust)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

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Thank you, yes Jesus had already canned the 'eternal bbq pit' idea, but the Roman Catholics felt the show just couldn't go on without that prop, so they made it a 'spectacular'.