Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Major1]

Yes. Christian universalists believe in and teach the gospel. They even believe in hell. This is a really good objective lecture on all of it by Steve Gregg, who's not a universalist.

Is it true that the definition of Christian Universalism is......
“the position that all of mankind will ultimately be saved through Jesus whether or not faith is professed in Him in this life. It claims that God's qualities of love, sovereignty, justice, etc., require that all people be saved and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine.”

If that is the case and I am sure it is....then why would the belief and teaching of the gospel mean anything at all to a Universalist????

 

[Major1]

It's difficult to get away from this line of thinking that makes salvation something we do, instead of something God does.

As if it is something we can accept or reject. As if we are in the driver's seat of our own destiny in the afterlife. And that God will "honor" our decision to reject him and will allow us to enter into destruction by our own choice.

Like a father that would watch his toddler wander out into freeway traffic and shrug it off. Saying, "If that's what she wants to do. I won't stop her."

Steve, do you agree that According to 1 Corinthians 15:42-55, the believer’s resurrection, when “the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,” is the moment when death itself is defeated, that is, “swallowed up in victory.”.

But as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 makes clear......
“The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (v26), which is leaving no more enemies in existence.

We are told in this passage that Jesus is right now reigning over “all things,” until he has finally “put all his enemies under his feet” (v25). Only after “destroying every rule and every authority and every power” (v24) does the consummation of salvation history occur, when Jesus submits himself and his rule to God the Father, “that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28 cf. 24). This is precipitated, we are told, by the victory over death demonstrated in the immortalization of believers, which makes them fit for eternal life in the new creation, signaling the destruction of the final enemy, death.

The fact that death is utterly defeated at this point means that it is not subsequently defeated gradually, as unbelievers—who were already resurrected but not made immortal in a victory over death—progressively confess Christ. On universalism, they still remain in mortal corruption, just as they are now. Moreover, since all enemies are destroyed by the time Jesus hands cosmic rule over “all things” to the Father, to have been among the “enemies of the cross” (Phil 3:18) is to have already been destroyed.

Therefore, the mode and timing of the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26, and the commensurate absence of any enemy in a fully reconciled creation, rules out universalism.

Your thoughts?

 

[Major1]

Quoting from a UR believer does don't help your case. Isaac of Nineveh also wrote:

"God corrects with love, never inflicts evil in return for evil, but He only wants his image to recover its good health." (Spiritual teachings, Slavonic Philocalia 260)

"If we said or thought that what concerns Gehenna is not in fact full of love and mixed with compassion, it would be an opinion tainted with blasphemy and abuse at our Lord God. If we even say that He will hand us to fire in order to have us suffer, to torment us, and for every sort of evil, we ascribe to the divine nature hostility toward the rational creatures that God has created through grace. The same is the case if we state that God acts or thinks out of retribution, as though the Godhead wanted to avenge itself. Among all of God's actions there is none that is not entirely dictated by mercy, love, and compassion: This is the beginning and the end of God's attitude toward us." (Second Part, 39:22)

History before it happens is found all throughout the Scriptures. One such relevant verse is what the Lord said he will say to some people:

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Jesus could not have been more clear in stating that some people will end up in eternal fire. This should be enough to refute universalism, but there are many other proofs as well:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life "(Matt. 25:46).

 

[Major1]

Yes, those who have led pristine lives are the elect who enter immediately into the Paradise.

Not so.

"None are righteouse, NO not One"!

Throughout Romans 9, Paul systematically shows that God’s sovereign election has been in force from the very beginning. He begins with a crucial statement: “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6). This means that not all people of ethnic Israel (that is, those descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) belong to true Israel (the elect of God). Reviewing the history of Israel, Paul shows that God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. Just in case anyone thinks that God was choosing these individuals based on the faith or good works they would do in the future, he adds, “Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (Romans 9:11).
Who are the elect of God? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Major1]

I think we would all agree with that. God's "wise" fire, as Clement of Alexandria called it, is experienced in different ways: as searing heat for those who are full of sin and need this to be burnt away, and as warmth for those who are in a true relationship with God. Where we disagree probably is that you think that this punishing heat goes on forever with no other purpose than torment while I think it lasts for just long enough to purify the individual concerned and so bring them to Christ.

Revelation chapter 20 is one of the most stirring chapters in the Bible. In it we read in verse #10.........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Since the beast and the false prophet are real people, it is apparent there is no salvation for them since they are with the devil to be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Again, it is evident that universalism is fatally flawed, but there is much more Biblical evidence than just that.

Of course you are free to believe as you choose.

 

[dóxatotheó]

Quoting from a UR believer does don't help your case. Isaac of Nineveh also wrote:

"God corrects with love, never inflicts evil in return for evil, but He only wants his image to recover its good health." (Spiritual teachings, Slavonic Philocalia 260)

"If we said or thought that what concerns Gehenna is not in fact full of love and mixed with compassion, it would be an opinion tainted with blasphemy and abuse at our Lord God. If we even say that He will hand us to fire in order to have us suffer, to torment us, and for every sort of evil, we ascribe to the divine nature hostility toward the rational creatures that God has created through grace. The same is the case if we state that God acts or thinks out of retribution, as though the Godhead wanted to avenge itself. Among all of God's actions there is none that is not entirely dictated by mercy, love, and compassion: This is the beginning and the end of God's attitude toward us." (Second Part, 39:22)

reading?? dont see argument

 

[Hmm]

I see we're on page 100 now. I think this shows an interest in Christian universalism at least, and I'm not surprised by this. For me, the Bible makes the most sense in a universalist context. The "all things" at the end of Romans 11:33-36 for example:

33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him,
to receive a gift in return?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.​

There's great joy in the belief of universal restoration. Part of it is in the thought that not only we but all our loved ones will, eventually at least, experience everlasting life with Christ. But there's also joy in the thought that God “who desires everyone to be saved” (I Timothy 2:4) will win a complete victory and ultimately be fully united with all His children, even the Hitler types.

OTOH, the non-universalist picture looks very dull, not only because ECT awaits some of our fellow man but because God is deprived of a complete victory and His desire that everyone is saved is frustrated.

The difference can be clearly seen I think by thinking what it would be like if instead of having the following verses...

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. (Romans 11:32)
for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22)

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. (Colossians 1:19-20)

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. (Romans 5:18)​

...we had this instead

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to some.
for as all die in Adam, so some will be made alive in Christ.

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself some things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for some.​

This would be a very improvised God indeed.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Is it true that the definition of Christian Universalism is......
“the position that all of mankind will ultimately be saved through Jesus whether or not faith is professed in Him in this life. It claims that God's qualities of love, sovereignty, justice, etc., require that all people be saved and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine.”

If that is the case and I am sure it is....then why would the belief and teaching of the gospel mean anything at all to a Universalist????

Here's a 3 min video on Steve Gregg's homepage that explains it:

 

[Ceallaigh]

Revelation chapter 20 is one of the most stirring chapters in the Bible. In it we read in verse #10.........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Since the beast and the false prophet are real people, it is apparent there is no salvation for them since they are with the devil to be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Again, it is evident that universalism is fatally flawed, but there is much more Biblical evidence than just that.

Of course you are free to believe as you choose.

Revelation also says there will no longer be day and night. And how can there be infinity and infinity?

 

[Major1]

Revelation also says there will no longer be day and night. And how can there be infinity and infinity?

That is because God is everywhere. Lights, whether natural or artificial, are unnecessary, because God’s glory fills every place (22-23). Other cities close their gates at night to prevent possible enemy attacks, but this city never closes its gates, because there is no night and no enemy. People of all nations inhabit the city, adding colour and splendour, yet there is complete purity, because sin is excluded (24-27).

The glory of God lighting the world has nothing to do with torments forever and ever.

 

[Major1]

Here's a 3 min video on Steve Gregg's homepage that explains it:

So "YOU" have no answer!

 

[Saint Steven]

Steve, do you agree that According to 1 Corinthians 15:42-55, the believer’s resurrection, when “the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,” is the moment when death itself is defeated, that is, “swallowed up in victory.”.

No. Christ defeated death on the cross. (Colossians 2:13-15)

 

[Saint Steven]

Therefore, the mode and timing of the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26, and the commensurate absence of any enemy in a fully reconciled creation, rules out universalism.

Your thoughts?

The same passage tells us this.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Ceallaigh]

So "YOU" have no answer!

Okay. To sum it up you basically asked if there's no eternal punishment, what's the point in being a Christian. If there's no everlasting torment, why not just ignore God?

Well, if someone's only reason for following Jesus is to escape eternal punishment, I'd have to question if they're really a Christian. If someone isn't in it out of true love for God and wanting to seek His will and put Him first, I'd have to wonder if that person is really saved.

Is being saved just about being saved from everlasting torment in the afterlife? Is being a Christian, a disciple of Christ, a follower of Jesus, only about us escaping eternal punishment?

I once started a thread asking Christians if they would be a Christian if there was no heaven or hell. Sadly many said "no".

Most universalists I know of actually seem to have a more genuine reason for following Christ. Because they're the ones who understood what I was asking and why. Because their dedication to God and following Christ isn't based on escaping His wrath. It's based on love of God and their neighbor.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That is because God is everywhere. Lights, whether natural or artificial, are unnecessary, because God’s glory fills every place (22-23). Other cities close their gates at night to prevent possible enemy attacks, but this city never closes its gates, because there is no night and no enemy. People of all nations inhabit the city, adding colour and splendour, yet there is complete purity, because sin is excluded (24-27).

The glory of God lighting the world has nothing to do with torments forever and ever.

On one hand you're saying there's only going to be perpetual light in the city, but on the other hand you're saying the glory of God will light the world.

And again, as far as "forever and forever" goes, how can there be infinity plus infinity? If what's being said in Revelation supposed to be taken literally on a scientific type basis, things like there's no day and night, but they'll be tormented day and night doesn't really come together. Likewise that's true of infinity plus infinity. However, perhaps these things being said are actually figurative rather than literal. Symbolic rather than scientific.

 

[Hmm]

I once started a thread asking Christians if they would be a Christian if there was no heaven or hell. Sadly many said "no".

That is pretty sad. It's seeing being a Christian as dull and life outside the faith as more fun but thinking I can't indulge in that because I don't want to pay the loan term cost of ECT. Not much Good News there!

 

[Ceallaigh]

That is pretty sad. It's seeing being a Christian as dull and life outside the faith as more fun but thinking I can't indulge in that because I don't want to pay the loan term cost of ECT. Not much Good News there!

What's kinda strange with that is that at most any church I've attended, the sermons are about the current benefits of being a Christian and how to be a better Christian. It's mostly all contemporaneous.

 

[Hmm]

What's kinda strange with that is that at most any church I've attended, the sermons are about the current benefits of being a Christian and how to be a better Christian. It's mostly all contemporaneous.

That's true for me too but that could be because I go to a Church of England church and we don't talk much about hell or anything unsettling like that. The trouble is though that most people outside the church think we do, probably because in fact we did in the past, and they won't come into the church for that reason.

I've found that if you press most Christians IRL on ECT they say that they believe an eternal hell is real but that God decides who goes there and we can't say that non-Christians for example will go there. The trouble with this though is that to most secular people this is a fudge - they won't accept on moral grounds even the slightest possibility that people might end up being eternally tormented. It's only because I know something about the universalist tradition that I can go to church myself but this is not something that is widely known. That's why I like all these universalist threads here.

 

[Andrewn]

The Matthew 25:46 proof-text is embraced while ignoring the implications of the balance of the passage. (Mathew 25:31-46)

If those who cling to verse 46 don't believe we can be saved by good deeds to the needy, maybe they shouldn't put verse 46 on a pedestal. It's a package deal. The passage clearly says (as mistranslated) that those who failed to do good deeds for the needy will suffer "eternal punishment", while those who do look after the needy will enjoy "eternal life".

Those who put verse 46 on a pedestal best sign up to help at the soup kitchen and give regularly to local church charities to help those in need. Otherwise, they're toast. - lol (according to their own claims)

Do we criticize the Lord's parable, now? Did He misspeak? Why should anyone doubt that the Lord meant exactly what He said: that those who have done what God wants will go to eternal life. We are put in this world in order to be God's hands and feet that administer justice to the "little people." How else is the power of Christ's agape supposed to be experienced in the world? What is the value of faith be without faithfulness?

Jam 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such “faith” able to save him?

17 Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead.

18 But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions!

20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such “faith” apart from actions is barren?

21 Wasn’t Abraham declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

22 You see that his faith worked with his actions; by the actions the faith was made complete;

24 You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone.

26 Indeed, just as the body without a spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead.

 

[Andrewn]

God does not grant salvation to anyone who is unrepentant.

It's difficult to get away from this line of thinking that makes salvation something we do, instead of something God does. As if it is something we can accept or reject. As if we are in the driver's seat of our own destiny in the afterlife. And that God will "honor" our decision to reject him and will allow us to enter into destruction by our own choice.

What is wrong with repentance? Didn't the Apostle Peter ask people to repent?

Act 3:19 Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away,20 and that the Lord may grant you times of refreshment and send you the Messiah already appointed for you, Jesus,