Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

Not really two quotes from him

The Light of Truth, God’s Energy, God’s grace which will fall on men unhindered by corrupt conditions in the Day of Judgment, will be the same to all men. There will be no distinction whatever. All the difference lies in those who receive, not in Him Who gives. The sun shines on healthy and diseased eyes alike, without any distinction. Healthy eyes enjoy light and because of it see clearly the beauty which surrounds them. Diseased eyes feel pain, they hurt, suffer, and want to hide from this same light which brings such great happiness to those who have healthy eyes.

Also I say that even those who are scourged in Hell are tormented with the scourgings of love…It is evil for man to think that the sinners in Hell are destitute for love for the Creator.


I wouldnt go so far and say hes an universalist that is not the case. He was an traditionalist though.

I think we would all agree with that. God's "wise" fire, as Clement of Alexandria called it, is experienced in different ways: as searing heat for those who are full of sin and need this to be burnt away, and as warmth for those who are in a true relationship with God. Where we disagree probably is that you think that this punishing heat goes on forever with no other purpose than torment while I think it lasts for just long enough to purify the individual concerned and so bring them to Christ.

 

[dóxatotheó]

I think we would all agree with that. God's "wise" fire, as Clement of Alexandria called it, is experienced in different ways: as searing heat for those who are full of sin and need this to be burnt away, and as warmth for those who are in a true relationship with God. Where we disagree probably is that you think that this punishing heat goes on forever with no other purpose than torment while I think it lasts for just long enough to purify the individual concerned and so bring them to Christ.

This position is very interesting

 

[Hmm]

This position is very interesting

I don't know how much of this thread you've read but the meaning of God's fire - is it punitive only or purifying/punitive + purifying? - has been discussed at times, drawing heavily on the Early Church Fathers. Well worth reading if you can find it! I don't believe your saint, Isaac of Nineveh, has been mentioned before so that's someone new to me at least, thanks.

 

[Major1]

Just so you know in future, standard use is that a capitalised "W" refers to Christ and is used to distinguish Him from the written word. As I said earlier, I suspected that you were unaware of this and let it go.

Thanks for the advice.
Just for you to know..........

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Revelation 19:13....
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."

However in John 10:35 ...
"If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken--".

 

[ozso]

Am I correct in understanding that there are two forms of universalism -
(1) Christian Universalists who believe Jesus is the only way to God and that all people will eventually accept Christ at some point throughout eternity,
(2) Universalists who believe that all roads lead to God or some form of ultimate reality.

Yes. Christian universalists believe in and teach the gospel. They even believe in hell. This is a really good objective lecture on all of it by Steve Gregg, who's not a universalist.

 

[zoidar]

Yes. Christian universalists believe in and teach the gospel. They even believe in hell. This is a really good objective lecture on all of it by Steve Gregg, who's not a universalist.

I've seen it. I don't think he was that objective, giving no argument for eternal torment. Saying you are objectively approaching a topic (which he does over and over), doesn't make you objective. Still some of the things he said I found interesting.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Have you ever read that verse and thought that it implies that there are those who he may NOT devour?

I can't say I have considered it in that way, if you're suggesting he requires God's express permission, much like in Job? My reading is I think just the conventional view of the lion preying on the stragglers and the lost.

It reminds me of the serpent fodder of eg Ps 103:13-14: 'As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.'

Slaughtered as lambs all the livelong day, but in Christ more than conquerors!

 

[Hmm]

Yes. Christian universalists believe in and teach the gospel. They even believe in hell. This is a really good objective lecture on all of it by Steve Gregg, who's not a universalist.

I haven't watched it all yet but because it's quite long but it's excellent so far. I'm sure you already know but he does a Q and A afterwards, which is also pretty long:

 

[Andrewn]

It's theorized that the ones who follow Christ in this age are the first fruits.

Yes, those who have led pristine lives are the elect who enter immediately into the Paradise.

 

[Andrewn]

Not inconsistent the bible says the wicked would be in eternal damnation and spat out from God.

Eternal / aionios means "otherworldly," or as the Nicene Creed puts it, "of the age to come."

I know our salvation comes from God you must be born again to enter the kingdom John 3:5 and Mark 16:16.

Of course.

Saying God desires all to be saved but ambiguously grant salvation to all even though he predestines people to salvation wouldn't matter.

God does not grant salvation to anyone who is unrepentant.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, those who have led pristine lives are the elect who enter immediately into the Paradise. I think the expression "first-fruits" is reserved specifically for the resurrected Jesus.

That's a strange thing.
The term "firstfruits" is plural, but is used for Christ sometimes. (1 Corinthians 15:20) And the punctuation in 1 Corinthians 15:23 makes it unclear whether it refers to Christ or "the Elect" (each in turn). Those who pass into the afterlife before the Second Coming. (go straight to heaven?) And other passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 1:18 use the term "firstfruits" to refer to us.

1. 1 Corinthians 15:20
   But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
   
   
2. 1 Corinthians 15:23
   But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
   
   
3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
   But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
   
   
4. James 1:18
   He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

 

[Andrewn]

Isaac of Nineveh, “Chapter XL,” The Second Part, Trans. Sebastian Brock (Corpus Scriptorum Christianorum Orientalium, 1995), 175-176.

Quoting from a UR believer does don't help your case. Isaac of Nineveh also wrote:

"God corrects with love, never inflicts evil in return for evil, but He only wants his image to recover its good health." (Spiritual teachings, Slavonic Philocalia 260)

"If we said or thought that what concerns Gehenna is not in fact full of love and mixed with compassion, it would be an opinion tainted with blasphemy and abuse at our Lord God. If we even say that He will hand us to fire in order to have us suffer, to torment us, and for every sort of evil, we ascribe to the divine nature hostility toward the rational creatures that God has created through grace. The same is the case if we state that God acts or thinks out of retribution, as though the Godhead wanted to avenge itself. Among all of God's actions there is none that is not entirely dictated by mercy, love, and compassion: This is the beginning and the end of God's attitude toward us." (Second Part, 39:22)

 

[Saint Steven]

God does not grant salvation to anyone who is unrepentant.

It's difficult to get away from this line of thinking that makes salvation something we do, instead of something God does.

As if it is something we can accept or reject. As if we are in the driver's seat of our own destiny in the afterlife. And that God will "honor" our decision to reject him and will allow us to enter into destruction by our own choice.

Like a father that would watch his toddler wander out into freeway traffic and shrug it off. Saying, "If that's what she wants to do. I won't stop her."

 

[Andrewn]

Those who pass into the afterlife before the Second Coming. (go straight to heaven?) And other passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 1:18 use the term "firstfruits" to refer to us.

Thank you, I corrected my post.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thank you, I corrected my post.

It seems that in order to make the whole passage work, we need to include us in verse 20, with Christ leading the way of the firstfruits. (plural) Not making Christ the only thing described by the term "firstfruits". Then verse 23 makes more sense. Why even describe what happens as "each in turn" if Christ is the only one? Who is taking turns then? (no one)

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Saint Steven]

It seems that in order to make the whole passage work, we need to include us in verse 20, with Christ leading the way of the firstfruits. (plural) Not making Christ the only thing described by the term "firstfruits". Then verse 23 makes more sense. Why even describe what happens as "each in turn" if Christ is the only one? Who is taking turns then? (no one)

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Furthermore, verse 22 tells us that "all will be made alive." So, we need to account for "all" in verse 23.

Some will object, saying ONLY those "in" Christ will be made alive. But this ignores the "as in" and "so in" aspects of the verse. Meaning, in the very same way that all died in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ.

There is no free-will decision in this statement. We didn't choose to die in Adam and we didn't choose to be included in the "all" who will be made alive. We could say that we were put ahead in the "each in turn" aspect. But can make no claim to the outcome as if it was by our own choice to be included.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Saint Steven]

Furthermore, verse 22 tells us that "all will be made alive." So, we need to account for "all" in verse 23.

Some will object, saying ONLY those "in" Christ will be made alive. But this ignores the "as in" and "so in" aspects of the verse. Meaning, in the very same way that all died in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ.

There is no free-will decision in this statement. We didn't choose to die in Adam and we didn't choose to be included in the "all" who will be made alive. We could say that we were put ahead in the "each in turn" aspect. But can make no claim to the outcome as if it was by our own choice to be included.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

One more detail and we should have an air-tight argument on this.

For those that would contend that ONLY Christ is described by the plural term "firtsfruits", they also need to consider the phrase "of those" (plural again) in verse 20. It doesn't only say "Christ... the first fruits", it says "the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Saint Steven]

I find the clinging to Mathew 25:31-46 interesting, seeing as how this parable seems to indicate that salvation is guaranteed by simply giving someone a cup of water. Those who seem to cherish verse 46, don't seem to see that aspect of the whole parable. Because the idea that all it takes to be saved is helping someone out, seems to fall more in line with universal redemption.

I'm glad you pointed this out. It's been on the back burner in my mind for awhile.

The Matthew 25:46 proof-text is embraced while ignoring the implications of the balance of the passage. (Mathew 25:31-46)

If those who cling to verse 46 don't believe we can be saved by good deeds to the needy, maybe they shouldn't put verse 46 on a pedestal. It's a package deal. The passage clearly says (as mistranslated) that those who failed to do good deeds for the needy will suffer "eternal punishment", while those who do look after the needy will enjoy "eternal life".

Those who put verse 46 on a pedestal best sign up to help at the soup kitchen and give regularly to local church charities to help those in need. Otherwise, they're toast. - lol (according to their own claims)

 

[Saint Steven]

It's a very real problem. I came across this personal account that describes how it feels.It speaks for itself.

"I just found out they have a name for my fear that causes me guilt and shame and panic. It’s Stygiophobia or the fear of hell as eternal suffering. In some very severe cases, a person suffering a panic attack triggered from Stygiophobia or Stigiophobia usually when exposed to its triggers such as hell can have one/or all of the following symptoms. I’ve experienced all of these:
fear of losing control
fear of fainting
feelings of dread
fear of dying
fear of harm or illness
guilt, shame, self-blame
Withdrawing from others
Feeling sad or hopeless
Feeling disconnected
Confusion, difficulty concentrating
Anger, irritability, mood swings
anxiety and fear

The symptoms of Stygiophobia are very similar to other specific phobias and will often include:
Avoid making mistakes
Inability to Relax
An Impending Sense of Dread
Problems Concentrating
Being quick tempered
Feelings of dizziness
Prickly sensations like pins and needles
Palpitations
Aches & Pains
Fatigued Muscles
Dry and Sticky mouth
Sweating Excessively
Breathlessness
Migraines and Headaches
Poor Quality of Sleep

Stygiophobia Symptoms are generally automatic and uncontrollable and can seem to take over a person’s thoughts which frequently leads to extreme measures being taken to avoid the fear"

Absolutely sick when you realize that the Church concocted this mental illness to control the masses. The long-term damage still rages today, centuries later. Imagine what it was like in the days when heretics were being burned at the stake.

 

[Saint Steven]

All these courses sound like some kind of 'boxercise' - packaged to deliver an energy hit in a fun way that's good for you!

It was a real thing. I kid you not. Here's the link.
Evangelism Explosion - EE International | Homepage

It was created as the ultimate tool for spreading the gospel. And I remember the emphasis at church about seamless apologetics. To be able to answer any objection to the gospel message.

I also remember going door-to-door in an apartment complex sharing with people. A church was started in the community room at the complex. The group eventually rented a larger church building and finally built their own building. It still exists today to my knowledge. I wonder if any of the original members are still there. I attended that church for a short time. (30-40 years ago)

Saint Steven said: ↑
I wonder of that was EE ? (Evangelism Explosion)