Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

Hey wait a minute amigo. You're supposed to show me where my "aionios" post has "been refuted in this and other threads many times." All I am asking for is one time.

Well, I don't want to wade back and find the post no. but it's not that far back that we had an argument over whether aiōnios is an adjective or not. The reason this was important is that if aiõnios is an adjective then, like any adjective, it's meaning will vary, sometimes greatly, with the nouns it qualifies. You denied this but then again you had to in order to maintain your claim that aionios always means eternal in the sense of always continuing in time.

However, adjectives do vary in their meaning. An example would be that a large planet and a large mouse are very unlikely to be the same size even though both are described as "large".

So when we are talking about salvation, punishment etc aionios describes the result of the action not the action itself because it is an adjective. Eternal salvation does not mean an eternal act of saving - what could that mean anyway? - and similarly eternal punishment does not mean an eternal act of punishing. It means salvation and punishment (temporary and corrective punishment - kolasis) from an eternal God. Eternal conscious torment comes from human misunderstanding my friend, not from Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, I don't want to wade back and find the post no. but it's not that far back that we had an argument over whether aiōnios is an adjective or not. The reason this was important is that if aiõnios is an adjective then, like any adjective, it's meaning will vary, sometimes greatly, with the nouns it qualifies. You denied this but then again you had to in order to maintain your claim that aionios always means eternal in the sense of always continuing in time.
However, adjectives do vary in their meaning. An example would be that a large planet and a large mouse are very unlikely to be the same size even though both are described as "large".

In general, this might hold true, with some adjectives, but I am only interested in "aionios." That it might hold true for some adjectives is not evidence that "aionios" never means eternal. Show me evidence where "aionios," specifically does not mean "eternal" in any verse which you would dispute. Not interested in generalities like "mountains,"" mice," etc. I mean indisputable evidence that "aionios" does not, cannot mean "eternal." Similar to the scriptural evidence I have provided.

So when we are talking about salvation, punishment etc aionios describes the result of the action not the action itself because it is an adjective. Eternal salvation does not mean an eternal act of saving - what could that mean anyway? - and similarly eternal punishment does not mean an eternal act of punishing. It means salvation and punishment (temporary and corrective punishment - kolasis) from an eternal God. Eternal conscious torment comes from human misunderstanding my friend, not from Jesus

There is nothing in this objection but your personal opinion. Where does "eternal salvation" occur in the NT? It doesn't, so it is irrelevant. As I have shown repeatedly "kolasis" does NOT mean correction.

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

The one who has torment i.e. kolasis, is not made perfect i.e. NOT corrected.
.....Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
How many times did Jesus mention a fate worse than death?
All of these objections are in the "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" category. No evidence as I have provided in my "aionios" post and 1 Jn 4:18, above.

 

[zoidar]

I must ask you Universal Restorationists. How do you believe that those in Gehenna will eventually be saved? Do you believe they will come to faith in Christ and be saved that way or do you have any other idea?

 

[Saint Steven]

With all due respect, why does anyone need to look up or find the meaning of "Eternal"????

You see, for the Universalism teaching to be acceptable....the meaning of words has to be changed.

Not the meaning of words, the meaning of mistranslated words.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Saint Steven]

I must ask you Universal Restorationists. How do you believe that those in Gehenna will eventually be saved? Do you believe they will come to faith in Christ and be saved that way or do you have any other idea?

Well, everyone is already saved. We will all need a tune up before we are ready for heaven though.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[zoidar]

Well, everyone is already saved. We will all need a tune up before we are ready for heaven though.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

So no one needs faith to be saved?

Edit: We don't need faith to get the tune up?

I wonder since I don't understand how God moves someone from Gehenna to heaven.

 

[ozso]

Hey wait a minute amigo. You're supposed to show me where my "aionios" post has "been refuted in this and other threads many times." All I am asking for is one time.

Maybe you should've asked a little more nicely. Besides we all know by now your response to any refutation would be "rubbish!". It all gets quite deja vu.

 

[ozso]

You are doing an outstanding Job!

That was the worst refutation I've ever seen.

Sorry, just trying to inject a little humor.

 

[Hmm]

Sorry, just trying to inject a little humor.

Hey, demarcation mate! @Saint Steven and I are quite capable of providing all the humour that's necessary, thank you so much /s

 

[ozso]

No.

I am not saying that.

God said in Rev. 21:23.........
"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Eternity is a concept that is temporal in nature and applies to things that are timeless.
Infinity is a concept that applies to things that cannot be counted or measured.

Religion and philosophy make heavy use of the concept of eternity whereas infinity is used more often in math and physics and when the two are mixed there will be confusion.

"There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever." Revelation 22:5

Very well, how can there literally be eternity and eternity?

 

[ozso]

So no one needs faith to be saved?

Edit: We don't need faith to get the tune up?

I wonder since I don't understand how God moves someone from Gehenna to heaven.

I believe the idea is that those who didn't come to Christ in their earthly lifetime, will experience what Paul experienced on the road to Damascus, when confronted by the pure blazing light of Jesus.

 

[Saint Steven]

So no one needs faith to be saved?

Edit: We don't need faith to get the tune up?

I wonder since I don't understand how God moves someone from Gehenna to heaven.

Salvation isn't something we do, it's something God does. (has done already)

Christ paid the death penalty for the whole world. It's a done deal. Paid in full. Unless you think Jesus would like to be cheated out of the vast majority he paid dearly for? (not likely)

No faith needed for the tune up. It's basically barnacle removal anyway. Stripping away the stuff we can live without. Besides, how much faith does it take to believe in God when you are face-to-face? (none)

When your barnacles are gone, you're ready to go home to heaven. Like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon. (former worm) Something a Calvinist should understand. LOL

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I must ask you Universal Restorationists. How do you believe that those in Gehenna will eventually be saved? Do you believe they will come to faith in Christ and be saved that way or do you have any other idea?

Gehenna is the overcoming part, where God's irresistible grace draws the sinner to repentance. This is why the devil is tormented in the fire, 'resistance is futile'. So it's saved by the faith OF Christ. It's the kenosis of the emptying out of the sin and filling with the new wine of grace. Just like getting born again - outpouring of baptismal fire and spirit, breath of new life, scales fall from our eyes, our lame dance like deer, our lepers are cleansed, our prisoners freed and our dead raised to life anew.

That's the big Anakainosis. Throw away the leper's prop of ECT, cast off the prison chains of penal substitution, embrace the abundant life aionion and the awesome assurance of the total victory of Christ.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But the reformers did not get rid of "hell" and ECT, did they?

Nope, they doubled down, apparently in a blurred crusade of 'virtue signaling' against the Catholics. It's a measure of how devout one is by how depraved one's vain imaginings of hell can be. So to suggest that 'hell' is actually more like a hospital is to stir the hornet's nest and provoke the anathema of heresy.

 

[Andrewn]

That has more to do with education.

That seems like an overstatement to me. I think there are many non-Christians that give their time and resources to help those in need. Secular organizations that reach out. We all know what a "Care package" is. That's a secular group, as far as I know.

I'm not so sure that only Christians help the needy. I think plenty of atheists have a humanistic sense of morality that leads them to be philanthropic.

Perhaps your observations are evidence that non-Christians are not hopeless (as far as ultimate salvation is concerned) and provide more logical support for UR. I like how this thread has partially evolved into a discussion between supporters of UR.

 

[Hmm]

Hey all you naughty universalists, here's a link to a free pdf download of Ilaria Ramelli's book The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Ilaria L.E. Ramelli | download

This is the first book I've had to do a Google search for to understand the title but then she does have a brain the size of a medium-sized planet.

 

[Andrewn]

With all due respect, why does anyone need to look up or find the meaning of "Eternal"????

Because the wisest man who ever lived said:

Mar 2:21 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise the patch pulls away from the old, and a worse tear happens. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins; and the wine is lost, also the skins. But one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”

Instead, “death” means to be separated from the plan and purposes of God. When something dies, it no longer functions the way God intended.

Right, and the Apostles said:

1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Rev 21:4 ‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”

You should know that No man did more to point the church back to God's inerrant Word than John Calvin. Now YOU may not like what he said but what he said was from the Scriptures which is why some reject him.

Just for your information, the EO Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 renounced Calvin by name and pronounced an anathema upon anyone teaching that God predestined anyone to evil or Hell.

Plucking the TULIP (1) – An Orthodox Critique of the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination – Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

 

[Andrewn]

Hey all you naughty universalists, here's a link to a free pdf download of Ilaria Ramelli's book The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Ilaria L.E. Ramelli | download

This is the first book I've had to do a Google search for to understand the title but then she does have a brain the size of a medium-sized planet.

I finished reading the smaller version of this book, published in 2019, and I'm thankful to you for suggesting her as a scholar and author. It's definitely one of the best Christian books I've ever read.

 

[Andrewn]

The believer does not have eonian life. The believer has ETERNAL LIFE, and he has it NOW.

The expression translated "eternal life" is "ζωὴν αἰώνιον" and this is pronounced "zoeen eonian" i.e. eonian life!!! In other words, eternal life is eonian life. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps your observations are evidence that non-Christians are not hopeless (as far as ultimate salvation is concerned) and provide more logical support for UR. I like how this thread has partially evolved into a discussion between supporters of UR.

Here's a scripture that addresses this.
It speaks about how our God-given human conscience works in us (even as gentile UNBELIEVERS) to BOTH accuse and DEFEND us. See vs. 15.

And verse 16 is a direct hit on the UR message. It refers to how this happens in the age to come. Our God-given human conscience will play a key role in leading our transformation.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.