Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Saint Steven]

This is somewhat disturbing, because Universalism is not taught anywhere in the Bible! It may be what you want to believe but it is not found in the Scriptures.

Wow. Seriously?
It all depends on your presuppositions.

Except for a few mistranslated passages, the whole bible supports UR. Here are a few selected verses.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

Wow. Seriously?
It all depends on your presuppositions.
Except for a few mistranslated passages, the whole bible supports UR. Here are a few selected verses."

The usual cop-out response. Please do tell us how you know which passages are mistranslated or translated correctly. Wait don't tell me let me guess. If the verses support your assumptions/presuppositions then they are correct.

"Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."​

The verb translated "may have mercy" is a subjunctive, the mood of possibility/potentiality. It ain't a done deal

"1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."​

All mankind is in Adam" since all mankind are literal, physical descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not "in Christ" that requires a conscious, voluntary action by each individual.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

Not in Christ, no redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Not in Christ and walk after the flesh, condemnation.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

Not in Christ, the veil is not taken away.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Not in Christ, not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

Not in Christ, not gathered together.

Ephesian 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

Not in Christ, still afar off, not nigh.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

Not in Christ, do not obtain salvation, no eternal glory.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The verb translated "may have mercy" is a subjunctive, the mood of possibility/potentiality. It ain't a done deal

Your god, der Alte, is like the super-Caesar. Will he glorify, or will he condemn! Thumbs....down.

And we like the Romans are never sure one moment to the next whether he's prepared some list which bears our names and is headed 'sword' or 'dagger'.

Der Alte, God is not 'same same' like Caesar. He is unlike any other, His ways are above ours, unsearchable and yet distinctively knowable by the imprimatur of life, truth and fatherly love. That's why Jesus goes to cross, because the power of heaven is utterly different to the carnal powers of earth. The devil may wield the power of death, but God overcomes it by restoring life, and in abundance. Jesus came to do such things, not to terrorise ordinary folk with 'what ifs'.

 

[Hmm]

Very many" does not mean "most." Guess you missed this.

Actually it does. When Augustine described the universalists as “indeed very many” (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a “vast majority” (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11). That is what the Latin word plurimi, from the adjective plurimus, implies.

I wasn't trying to claim that universalism, or “apokatastasis” as it was known then, was the majority view in anyway. I was just saying that it was an influential doctrine in the early church and Augustine clearly confirms that in this quote.

You misquote Augustine he did not say "the universalist belief does not go 'counter to divine Scripture'" He said "Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify."

But they are still not "counter to divine Scripture". If they were, I'm sure Augustine would have shouted it out because he was captain of Team Hell at the time. All he's saying here is that the early universalists emphasised God's mercy and love rather than his "wrath" just as probably most Christians do today.

 

[Hmm]

Not in Christ, no redemption.

Not in Christ and walk after the flesh, condemnation.

Not in Christ, the veil is not taken away

Not in Christ, not a new creature, old things are not passed away.

Not in Christ, not gathered together.

Not in Christ, still afar off, not nigh.

Not in Christ, do not obtain salvation, no eternal glory.

But you are arguing with yourself. Christian universalism is Christocentric and believes that we are saved by Christ just as every other Christian tradition does. You are talking about a pluralistic from of universalism that does not hold this view.

 

[ozso]

Yes, someone only embraces universalism after learning about it and making a rational decision to, because hardly anyone is brought up in it there being no universalist churches AFAIK. It's nice when you discover that there is such a large number of scholars, theologians, writers and laypeople out there who share your belief in a God who doesn't torment or torture His children.

I can't say that I've embraced it. But I've looked into it enough to consider it possible. I certainly like the idea. What it comes down to for me trust in God.

 

[ozso]

Well, there is the Unitarian Universalist Church, but I don't recommend it. I doubt it can be classified as Christian.

It's not.

 

[Hmm]

Wow. Seriously?
It all depends on your presuppositions.

Except for a few mistranslated passages, the whole bible supports UR. Here are a few selected verses

Exactly. Case in point, most Christians would probably say that unbaptised babies and young children will go heaven. However, this is really just a presupposition they are making and not something that Scripture actually says. However, they won't extend this to adults, again because it is their presupposition and nothing to do with Scripture.

The false logic of trying to limit God in this way is seen if you ask, at what moment of time does a young child cross over from being someone who will go to heaven to someone who will go hell? Is it at 9 years and 3 months old? Or at 19 years, 8 months, 7 days, 2 hrs, 33 mins, 4 seconds... I could go on but maybe they're open-minded about milliseconds ... The logic is clearly absurd.

 

[Hmm]

I can't say that I've embraced it. But I've looked into it enough to consider it possible. I certainly like the idea. What it comes down to for me trust in God.

I think that's good. I guess we can't ever know for sure one way or the other. One thing I do personally know for sure though is that if ECT is a real phenomenon, I would far rather be subject to it than have to worship the Torturer forever and ever.

 

[ozso]

I think that's good. I guess we can't ever know for sure one way or the other. One thing I do personally know for sure though is that if ECT is a real phenomenon, I would far rather be subject to it than have to worship the Torturer forever and ever.

I'm a lot more skeptical of ECT than UR.

 

[Hmm]

I'm a lot more skeptical of ECT than UR.

Me too. There's no way of reconciling eternal torment/torture with the perfect image of God shown to us in Jesus. It's all mental gymnastics. Universal reconciliation OTOH is God's stated wish and desire.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm a lot more skeptical of ECT than UR.

Is there any way that Christ could win and UR be falsified?

 

[ozso]

Is there any way that Christ could win and UR be falsified?

IDK.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Hey all you naughty universalists, here's a link to a free pdf download of Ilaria Ramelli's book The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Ilaria L.E. Ramelli | download

This is the first book I've had to do a Google search for to understand the title but then she does have a brain the size of a medium-sized planet.

Thanks for that link, I've been looking forward to an affordable version!

Here's a question, which might actually warrant it's own thread, but OTOH might have a simple answer:

Origen, name means 'Born of Horus'. Okay, he's from Alexandria, but from a devout Christian family, his father is St Leonidas the martyr. This may call for speculation, but why on earth would his parents have named him after a pagan deity? It's been bothering me for a while.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

IDK.

Neither do I, but it doesn't seem to be possible within the realm of Logic, at least not between the Alpha and Omega.

 

[ozso]

Some things I consider is, there's no real mention of hell in the entire Old Testament. Neither Moses nor the prophets said anything about it. The closest to it I can think of is Daniel 12:2.

Most of the time Jesus mentions Gehenna he's speaking figuratively and using hyperbolic language. "If your eye offends you, gouge it out..." Or he's telling a parable, in which again he uses figurative and symbolic language.

So a good chunk of Jesus talking about "hell" is in the form of figurative language and symbolism. A lot of which I think had to do with the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

Then there's Revelation. But again, that's also full of hyperbolic apocalyptic figurative symbolic language.

 

[Hmm]

Origen, name means 'Born of Horus'. Okay, he's from Alexandria, but from a devout Christian family, his father is St Leonidas the martyr. This may call for speculation, but why on earth would his parents have named him after a pagan deity? It's been bothering me for a while.

Good question. I don't know but perhaps his parents were pagan when he was born and only later became Christians?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Good question. I don't know but perhaps his parents were pagan when he was born and only later became Christians?

Plausible speculation, but i'd prefer it if we knew of any historical records.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Some things I consider is, there's no real mention of hell in the entire Old Testament. Neither Moses nor the prophets said anything about it. The closest to it I can think of is Daniel 12:2.

Most of the time Jesus mentions Gehenna he's speaking figuratively and using hyperbolic language. "If your eye offends you, gouge it out..." Or he's telling a parable, in which again he uses figurative and symbolic language.

So a good chunk of Jesus talking about "hell" is in the form of figurative language and symbolism. A lot of which I think had to do with the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

Then there's Revelation. But again, that's also full of hyperbolic apocalyptic figurative symbolic language.

It's easy to get tangled in the details, but the foundations are God's omnipotence, goodness/ righteousness/ holiness, love for creation and salvation His mighty working right arm. So whatever doctrine one might hold to, it really gets set adrift and shipwrecked if it leads to the belief that the many are doomed. Gotta hold on to the Cross.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Some things I consider is, there's no real mention of hell in the entire Old Testament. Neither Moses nor the prophets said anything about it. The closest to it I can think of is Daniel 12:2.

Most of the time Jesus mentions Gehenna he's speaking figuratively and using hyperbolic language. "If your eye offends you, gouge it out..." Or he's telling a parable, in which again he uses figurative and symbolic language.

So a good chunk of Jesus talking about "hell" is in the form of figurative language and symbolism. A lot of which I think had to do with the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

Then there's Revelation. But again, that's also full of hyperbolic apocalyptic figurative symbolic language.

Your post reminds me of the assertion that Jesus said more about Hell, blah, blah, blah. I looked at His statements about Heaven versus His statements about "hell," and found a ratio of about 6.5 to 1. Even if we accept "hell" as true, the emphasis of Jesus was Heaven, and by a wide margin. Propaganda again.