Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

MMXX.......Staying within Christian doctrine is the ONLY thing that matters.

When one strays outside of the box of Christian doctrine one winds up as a Jehovah Witness or a Mormon or a Universalist.

Satan’s strategy is to oppose, subvert, and mute the content of biblical doctrine and dislodge it from its place in the church’s life. God, though, has placed in the Christian’s hand a weapon for defense. It is the very truth under attack. It is what Paul calls the “belt of truth” and “sword of the Spirit” (Eph. 6:14, 17)—the Bible. These are parts of the Christian’s armor.

Christian doctrine is a wide spectrum within Protestantism. Do you hold to the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues? Or the Arminian doctrine that salvation can be lost? Or the Calvinist doctrine of once saved always saved? How about the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine regarding the Sabbath? I could go on and on of course.

 

[ozso]

Fact........
No one talked more on HELL than did Jesus Christ!

Hardly anyone said anything about hell in the entire Bible. And I think a good chunk of what's ascribed to Jesus as talking about hell, I think was quite possibly about the upcoming destruction of Israel.

What, do you suppose, might be the 'figure' ? If 'fire' is not literal then what unimaginable thing can 'fire' possibly indicate ? And how can it possibly be expressed, if Jesus himself, God's only begotten Son, did not express it ?

It would be absurd to describe those who no longer exist through unbiblical annihilation as being “punished.” As frightful as all of this may sound -- and it is meant to sound that way -- the lost will be tormented. And, whether that involves literal "worms that never die and fires that are never quenched" seems quite beside the point. Words can probably not describe the unfathomable horror of endless torture in flames.

All I know is that God said it and I am not as smart as God to tell anyone what He meant to say.

You're asking how many times fire has been used in the Bible both literally and figuratively? Lots.
The worms that never die was said by Isaiah in regard to the aftermath of the Babylonian invasion and all the the corpuses left in its wake. Jesus so happened to quote that on the heels of the Roman invasion of Israel in 70 AD. Read what happened. Thousands of Jews were massacred and Jerusalem was in flames. Read the what OT prophets had to say regarding Babylon. Read the book of Ezekiel where God talks about the fiery furnace in regard to it.

18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her. 22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the Lord have poured out my wrath on you.’” Ezekiel 22:18-22

You can broaden your scope of understanding things outside of your current knowledge and understanding without becoming a Jehovah's Witness. As a matter of fact they're the ones who forbid learning anything outside of their doctrine.

 

[ozso]

I do not agree and I did NOT say that Steve did not believe the Bible.

I said that he was predisposed to believe what he wanted to believe not mater what the Bible says.

That MMXX is exactly why doctrine is so important.

Christians, in other words, stay within the Bible’s doctrinal parameters. They are to persist in this doctrine, follow it, guard it, stand firm in it, and hand it on intact. They do not venture outside of it, for that is where faith becomes shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19–20). They resist its alternatives. They know this truth is entirely sufficient for life despite uncertainties and suffering. Later, of course, this truth was formulated into the Protestant principle of sola Scriptura.

You see.....IF I like a certain idea or opinion, I can make the Bible say what "I" want it to say by taking Scriptures totally out of their original CONTEXT!

By doing that people having come up with the idea that ALL will be saved in the end when the Bible when taken in CONTEXT says exactly the opposite.

Protestantism is full of differing doctrines that conflict with each other. I'm sure you'll notice there's a great deal of debating and arguing that goes on here among sola scriptura Christians over what scripture says. A lot of which has to do with the salvation of the believer.

 

[Major1]

Hardly anyone said anything about hell in the entire Bible. And I think a good chuck of what's ascribed to Jesus talking about hell, it think was quite possibly about the upcoming destruction of Israel.



You're asking how many times fire has been used in the Bible both literally and figuratively? Lots.
The worms that never die was said by Isaiah in regard to the aftermath of the Babylonian invasion and all the the corpuses left in its wake. Jesus so happened to quote that on the heels of the Roman invasion of Israel in 70 AD. Read what happened. Thousands of Jews were massacred and Jerusalem was in flames. Read the what OT prophets had to say regarding Babylon. Read the book of Ezekiel where God talks about the fiery furnace in regard to it.

18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her. 22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the Lord have poured out my wrath on you.’” Ezekiel 22:18-22

You can broaden your scope of understanding things outside of your current knowledge and understanding without becoming a Jehovah's Witness. As a matter of fact they're the ones who forbid learning anything outside of their doctrine.

Facts are some what different.........

Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell.
Daniel 12:2,
Daniel 12:3;
Matthew 25:46;
John 5:28;
Revelation 20:14,
Rev. 20:15.

Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them.
John 3:16,
John 3:36.

Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons.
Matthew 25:41;
Revelation 20:10).

Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ.
Matthew 13:41,50;
Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8.

Hell is conscious torment.

• Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  • 
    Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”.
    • 
      Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

Hell is eternal and irreversible.

• Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
  • 
    Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
    • 
      Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”.

 

[Major1]

Christian doctrine is a wide spectrum within Protestantism. Do you hold to the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues? Or the Arminian doctrine that salvation can be lost? Or the Calvin doctrine of once saved always saved? How about the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine regarding the Sabbath? I could go on and on of course.

Question......
"Do you hold to the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues? "

NO. It is not Scriptural for today.

Question.....
"Or the Arminian doctrine that salvation can be lost?"

NO. The Bible makes it clear that you can’t lose your salvation because it’s all from God. We are not saved because of anything good in us. Rather, when we are dead in our transgressions and sins, God causes us to become alive to him. God chooses us to be saved even though we would never choose him. As Ephesians 2:4-5 puts it.

Question:
Or the Calvin doctrine of once saved always saved?

YES. See Above.

Question......
How about the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine regarding the Sabbath?

NO. Mixing Law and Grace is not Biblical.

You said.........
I could go on and on of course.

Yes you could.

 

[Major1]

Hardly anyone said anything about hell in the entire Bible. And I think a good chunk of what's ascribed to Jesus as talking about hell, I think was quite possibly about the upcoming destruction of Israel.



You're asking how many times fire has been used in the Bible both literally and figuratively? Lots.
The worms that never die was said by Isaiah in regard to the aftermath of the Babylonian invasion and all the the corpuses left in its wake. Jesus so happened to quote that on the heels of the Roman invasion of Israel in 70 AD. Read what happened. Thousands of Jews were massacred and Jerusalem was in flames. Read the what OT prophets had to say regarding Babylon. Read the book of Ezekiel where God talks about the fiery furnace in regard to it.

18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her. 22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the Lord have poured out my wrath on you.’” Ezekiel 22:18-22

You can broaden your scope of understanding things outside of your current knowledge and understanding without becoming a Jehovah's Witness. As a matter of fact they're the ones who forbid learning anything outside of their doctrine.

No sir....I said nothing about how many times!!!

You used the word "Figuratively" in order to dimmish the LITERAL existence of Hell.

To which I then said........
"What, do you suppose, might be the 'figure' ? If 'fire' is not literal then what unimaginable thing can 'fire' possibly indicate ?"

 

[Major1]

Protestantism is full of differing doctrines that conflict with each other. I'm sure you'll notice there's a great deal of debating and arguing that goes on here among sola scriptura Christians over what scripture says. A lot of which has to do with the salvation of the believer.

I would say that "Religion" is full of differing positions.

Correct Christian exegesis however is quite different.

 

[ozso]

Question......
"Do you hold to the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues? "

NO. It is not Scriptural for today.

Question.....
"Or the Arminian doctrine that salvation can be lost?"

NO. The Bible makes it clear that you can’t lose your salvation because it’s all from God. We are not saved because of anything good in us. Rather, when we are dead in our transgressions and sins, God causes us to become alive to him. God chooses us to be saved even though we would never choose him. As Ephesians 2:4-5 puts it.

Question:
Or the Calvin doctrine of once saved always saved?

YES. See Above.

Question......
How about the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine regarding the Sabbath?

NO. Mixing Law and Grace is not Biblical.

You said.........
I could go on and on of course.

Yes you could.

The point is all of those are considered orthodox doctrines. So when you say one must stick to doctrine based on scripture, what you really mean is you believe that you must stick to the Reformed/Calvinist doctrine you believe in.

 

[ozso]

I would say that "Religion" is full of differing positions.

Correct Christian exegesis however is quite different.

What you consider correct Christian exegesis, is considered incorrect by several mainstream and probably all mainline Christian denominations.

 

[ozso]

No sir....I said nothing about how many times!!!

You used the word "Figuratively" in order to dimmish the LITERAL existence of Hell.

To which I then said........
"What, do you suppose, might be the 'figure' ? If 'fire' is not literal then what unimaginable thing can 'fire' possibly indicate ?"

I said parables consist of figurative language. And no one I know of in this thread denies the existence of hell.

As shown in Ezekiel 22:18-22, fire often refers to refining and purification. God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). Everyone will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49). He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11) etc...

 

[Der Alte]

So tell me Major, what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

PMFBI but "total victory of Christ" does not look like all mankind being saved righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death, even without repentance, in this life.
I recall a parable of Jesus.

Matthew 20:1-16
1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 and to them he said, 'You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.'
5 So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, 'Why do you stand here idle all day?'
7 They said to him, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'
8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.'
9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius.
10 Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius.
11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house,
12 saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.'
13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you.
15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?'
16 So the last will be first, and the first last."​

Note everyone who worked were paid the same wage, from the ones who worked the full day to the ones who only worked the last hour, all received the same reward.
But they had to work during the day. The master of the house did not pay anyone who did not work.
What would really be nice is one verse, two or more would be much better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, state unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death, even without repentance in this life. Surely something that affects all mankind past, present and future should be of such import that both the Father and the Son would make a clear, unequivocally statement to that effect.
.....And we should bear in mind this verse. Also spoken by Jesus.

John 9:4
4 We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.​

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

Everyone will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49). He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11) etc.

Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context, e.g. Mk 9:49.
What does "salted with fire" mean? Do you think it means everyone will be saved by fire? If so, please show us one verse, two or more would be better, which conclusively shows that anyone is saved by fire alone, without repentance in this life? There is no such scripture!

Leviticus 2:13
13 You shall season all your grain offerings with salt. You shall not let the salt of the covenant with your God be missing from your grain offering; with all your offerings you shall offer salt.
Numbers 18:19
19 All the holy contributions that the people of Israel present to the LORD I give to you, and to your sons and daughters with you, as a perpetual due. It is a covenant of salt forever before the LORD for you and for your offspring with you."​

Salt was added to offerings, which were already clean and acceptable. Something that was not clean, not acceptable as an offering could not be made clean with salt.

 

[Hmm]

What would really be nice is one verse, two or more would be much better, where the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, state unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death, even without repentance in this life. Surely something that affects all mankind past, present and future should be of such import that both the Father and the Son would make a clear, unequivocally statement to that effect.

You have asked for and been given scripture that shows that:
1. God desires the salvation of all because God is supremely loving
and
2. God is sovereign so that God will achieve what God desires.

What else can that mean other than that all will be saved? This of course is in addition to all the verses that explicitly say that all will be saved.and that God will one day be "all in all", many of which have been repeatedly posted here at your request but which you always try to refute.

What you seem to be saying is that you will only believe in salvation after death if it is stated "clearly and unequivocally" to your satisfaction but isn't this telling God what He should have put in scripture? You believe in the Trinity but nowhere is this clearly and unequivocally stated.

 

[Major1]

I said parables consist of figurative language. And no one I know of in this thread denies the existence of hell.

As shown in Ezekiel 22:18-22, fire often refers to refining and purification. God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). Everyone will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49). He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11) etc...

However.....Parables DO NOT consist of Proper names, therefore, Luke 16 is a REAL story and not a "figurative" story.

I agree that the word fire is at times used in a "Picture" method.
CONTEXT defines the definition.

 

[Major1]

What you consider correct Christian exegesis, is considered incorrect by several mainstream and probably all mainline Christian denominations.

And the specific example would be...............?

 

[Major1]

The point is all of those are considered orthodox doctrines. So when you say one must stick to doctrine based on scripture, what you really mean is you believe that you must stick to the Reformed/Calvinist doctrine you believe in.

Reformed and Calvinist are two different views.

Calvinism is certainly a major tenant of reformed theology, but it is not the whole of reformed theology.

 

[Der Alte]

You have asked for and been given scripture that shows that:
1. God desires the salvation of all because God is supremely loving
and
2. God is sovereign so that God will achieve what God desires.
What else can that mean other than that all will be saved? This of course is in addition to all the verses that explicitly say that all will be saved.and that God will one day be "all in all", many of which have been repeatedly posted here at your request but which you always try to refute.
What you seem to be saying is that you will only believe in salvation after death if it is stated "clearly and unequivocally" to your satisfaction but isn't this telling God what He should have put in scripture? You believe in the Trinity but nowhere is this clearly and unequivocally stated.

I have several posts around where I show from scripture alone, not scholars, no ECF, no grammars, or lexicons. Only scripture that there is one God, the Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God. Please feel free to try to refute my posts.
Assumptions and presuppositions which do NOT state that God will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death, even without predeath repentance.
.....Previously posted in this thread. Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as in this post.
Does everything that God desires come to pass, no matter what, without exception?
Many years ago when I first heard the proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets.
.....Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”

 

[Hmm]

I have several posts around where I show from scripture alone, not scholars, no ECF, no grammars, or lexicons. Only scripture that there is one God, the Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God. Please feel free to try to refute my posts.

Why would I want to refute it? I agree with what you've just said about the Trinity.

We owe a lot more to others than often realise but even if you were able to derive the idea of the Trinity idea completely independently, I don't see that as a virtue. The church is meant to be part of one body (@Saint Steven is the funny bone) and we all depend on one another. We are meant to learn from scholars and not to try to emulate all their work over the past two thousand years single-handedly - that's only going to produce some pretty weird theories as we often see.

 

[Saint Steven]

--- ANNOUNCEMENT ---

Wonderful new book by our own @Light of the East - pen name: Patrick Seamus O'Hara.

I read a draft and wrote an acknowledgement. Great read. I highly recommend it.

A Layman Investigates Universal Salvation
Discovering the Truly Good News
by Patrick Seamus O'Hara

Imprint: Resource Publications

A Layman Investigates Universal Salvation- Wipf and Stock Publishers

Now available on Amazon.

 

[Saint Steven]

Staying within Christian doctrine is the ONLY thing that matters.

Who decides what that means? There is no consensus.

Like you said...

Reformed and Calvinist are two different views.