Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

Your post reminds me of the assertion that Jesus said more about Hell, blah, blah, blah. I looked at His statements about Heaven versus His statements about "hell," and found a ratio of about 6.5 to 1. Even if we accept "hell" as true, the emphasis of Jesus was Heaven, and by a wide margin. Propaganda again.

Yeah, I've heard Mike Kessler say that fairly frequently on the radio show "To Every Man an Answer". I wouldn't be surprised if it came out of Hank Hannagraff and Walter Martin too.

 

[Saint Steven]

Exactly. Case in point, most Christians would probably say that unbaptised babies and young children will go heaven. However, this is really just a presupposition they are making and not something that Scripture actually says. However, they won't extend this to adults, again because it is their presupposition and nothing to do with Scripture.

The false logic of trying to limit God in this way is seen if you ask, at what moment of time does a young child cross over from being someone who will go to heaven to someone who will go hell? Is it at 9 years and 3 months old? Or at 19 years, 8 months, 7 days, 2 hrs, 33 mins, 4 seconds... I could go on but maybe they're open-minded about milliseconds ... The logic is clearly absurd.

I agree.
There was a time, when I was a full-blown Evangelical, that I would argue with others about these differences. I thought it was just a matter of ignorance on their part. If I could show them the way, they would be in a better place. (wrong)

What I discovered was that they had good biblical reasons for what they believed. It was just different than what I was raised on.

At that point I changed my tack with these folks, rather than try to refute them, I worked toward trying to understand them better and to embrace rather than shun them.

Now I can really appreciate the differences and diversity in the Body of Christ. (the church)

 

[Major1]

Wow. Seriously?
It all depends on your presuppositions.

Except for a few mistranslated passages, the whole bible supports UR. Here are a few selected verses.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Steve. There is absolutly NO reason for you to respond to my posts. YOU....as YOU just said are predisposed to believe what you want to believe and nothing said from the Bible will change that.

So.....save yourself some time and aggravation.

 

[Major1]

This is the sort of ignorance we are hoping to dispel.

Universalism was alive and well in the early church. See quote below.
The belief was dominant in the Eastern/Greek church. (4 of 6 early Church theological schools were Universalist) When the Western/ Latin Church became dominant, UR was pushed out. We are currently witnessing a revival of an early church belief.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

I think that every single person understands that YOU as a Universalists are desperate to overstate your case.

And even if it were true that the majority of the early church believed one view over the other, we probably couldn't know for sure and since when did the majority of anything make it true. IF and when God says something is right...then it is right.

AND......for the 1st 1500 years of the 20th century, the church was taught to be the one involved in our salvation. Did that make it a true doctrine????

That did not change until Martin Luthers 99 Thesis in 1565.

 

[Major1]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as in this post.
Does everything that God desires come to pass without exception?
Many years ago when I first heard the proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets.
.....Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”

Absolutely CORRECT my friend!

If anyone wants to believe a false theology......they will find it in the Bible by looking for it.

It is called ....."Cafeteria Christianity".

 

[Saint Steven]

Steve. There is absolutly NO reason for you to respond to my posts. YOU....as YOU just said are predisposed to believe what you want to believe and nothing said from the Bible will change that.

So.....save yourself some time and aggravation.

No reason? On the contrary.

You aren't the only reader of my posts to you. Not only am I responding to you, but to those who both agree and disagree with you.

Besides, I wouldn't dream of asking you not to respond to my posts. That is your decision. And it would be rude for me to even infer that you had no reason to respond.

Furthermore, your inference that my views are not biblical is completely false. Which of the verses that I posted to you is not biblical? - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Absolutely CORRECT my friend!

If anyone wants to believe a false theology......they will find it in the Bible by looking for it.

It is called ....."Cafeteria Christianity".

So tell me Major, what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

 

[Saint Steven]

I think that every single person understands that YOU as a Universalists are desperate to overstate your case.

And even if it were true that the majority of the early church believed one view over the other, we probably couldn't know for sure and since when did the majority of anything make it true. IF and when God says something is right...then it is right.

AND......for the 1st 1500 years of the 20th century, the church was taught to be the one involved in our salvation. Did that make it a true doctrine????

That did not change until Martin Luthers 99 Thesis in 1565.

You are flip-flopping.

first you claim UR is false because the majority doesn't believe it. So I showed you that it was the majority view in the early church.

Now you flip back the other direction and ask when the majority was ever right. - lol

 

[ozso]

Steve. There is absolutly NO reason for you to respond to my posts. YOU....as YOU just said are predisposed to believe what you want to believe and nothing said from the Bible will change that.

So.....save yourself some time and aggravation.

How is it that you come to the conclusion that Steve doesn't believe the Bible, right after he posted a slew of scripture to support what he believes?

This isn't a matter of not believing the Word of God. It's a matter having an interpretation of scripture that differs from yours, based on scriptural evidence.

 

[ozso]

Absolutely CORRECT my friend!

If anyone wants to believe a false theology......they will find it in the Bible by looking for it.

It is called ....."Cafeteria Christianity".

Staying within a doctrinal box isn't necessarily a good thing either.

Also I'm sure many Catholics would say "Cafeteria Christianity" is the definition of Protestantism.

 

[Saint Steven]

Also I'm sure many Catholics would say "Cafeteria Christianity" is the definition of Protestantism.

Yes.
A knowledgeable Catholic/Orthodox/even Anglican, etc. can really take you to task on what Protestantism falsely claims. (and rightly so, in most cases)

 

[ozso]

Yes.
A knowledgeable Catholic/Orthodox/even Anglican, etc. can really take you to task on what Protestantism falsely claims. (and rightly so, in most cases)

Rubbish! The reformed church is 100% infallible.

 

[Major1]

Staying within a doctrinal box isn't necessarily a good thing either.

Also I'm sure many Catholics would say "Cafeteria Christianity" is the definition of Protestantism.

MMXX.......Staying within Christian doctrine is the ONLY thing that matters.

When one strays outside of the box of Christian doctrine one winds up as a Jehovah Witness or a Mormon or a Universalist.

Satan’s strategy is to oppose, subvert, and mute the content of biblical doctrine and dislodge it from its place in the church’s life. God, though, has placed in the Christian’s hand a weapon for defense. It is the very truth under attack. It is what Paul calls the “belt of truth” and “sword of the Spirit” (Eph. 6:14, 17)—the Bible. These are parts of the Christian’s armor.

 

[Major1]

How is it that you come to the conclusion that Steve doesn't believe the Bible, right after he posted a slew of scripture to support what he believes?

This isn't a matter of not believing the Word of God. It's a matter having an interpretation of scripture that differs from yours, based on scriptural evidence.

I do not agree and I did NOT say that Steve did not believe the Bible.

I said that he was predisposed to believe what he wanted to believe not mater what the Bible says.

That MMXX is exactly why doctrine is so important.

Christians, in other words, stay within the Bible’s doctrinal parameters. They are to persist in this doctrine, follow it, guard it, stand firm in it, and hand it on intact. They do not venture outside of it, for that is where faith becomes shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19–20). They resist its alternatives. They know this truth is entirely sufficient for life despite uncertainties and suffering. Later, of course, this truth was formulated into the Protestant principle of sola Scriptura.

You see.....IF I like a certain idea or opinion, I can make the Bible say what "I" want it to say by taking Scriptures totally out of their original CONTEXT!

By doing that people having come up with the idea that ALL will be saved in the end when the Bible when taken in CONTEXT says exactly the opposite.

 

[Major1]

You are flip-flopping.

first you claim UR is false because the majority doesn't believe it. So I showed you that it was the majority view in the early church.

Now you flip back the other direction and ask when the majority was ever right. - lol

FOCUS Steve.

This has nothing to do with me or any flip flopping.

Again......you are wasting your time on me. BUT, it is your time.

 

[Major1]

So tell me Major, what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

It is amazing how Universalists always work through "TRAP" questions.

Anyway.....As followers of Jesus Christ, we all want to live a triumphant Christian life. The Bible assures us that God and His Son Jesus are Victors and that believers can share in their victories: “But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” which is seen in 1 Corth. 15:57.

How then does that happen???

The key to achieve victory in Jesus is FAITH in Christ!!!!!!

1 John 5:4-5...........
“For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God”.

1 John 5:1, 4 ......
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. [4] For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith."

When you have faith in the Christ and the word of God, you will consistently walk victoriously. The walk of faith is a daily walk with Christ, trusting and believing in his word. As you continue daily in his word studying and meditation, your faith is built and becomes stronger.

 

[Major1]

No reason? On the contrary.

You aren't the only reader of my posts to you. Not only am I responding to you, but to those who both agree and disagree with you.

Besides, I wouldn't dream of asking you not to respond to my posts. That is your decision. And it would be rude for me to even infer that you had no reason to respond.

Furthermore, your inference that my views are not biblical is completely false. Which of the verses that I posted to you is not biblical? - lol

I did not say to NOT respond.

I said that It is YOUR time my friend.

ANY Scripture which says that EVERYONE will be saved in the end.
ANY Scripture that says Hell is not a literal place where the lost are tormented forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Pick one.

 

[Major1]

This is the sort of ignorance we are hoping to dispel.

Universalism was alive and well in the early church. See quote below.
The belief was dominant in the Eastern/Greek church. (4 of 6 early Church theological schools were Universalist) When the Western/ Latin Church became dominant, UR was pushed out. We are currently witnessing a revival of an early church belief.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Steve....I have been at this many, many years.
What I have learned is that Universalism was certainly present in the early church, and I make no argument against your post.

What I do say however is that it is simply impossible to say if it was the majority view. I realize that by saying that and believing that it allows Universalists today to bleieve that they are on the side or correct doctrine.

But it is simply too easy to deceive people by listing only universalists in the " Early Christian Church". There are lots of early Christians, so it is easy to cherry pick opinion that you like. Not that that matters to anyone at all.

 

[Major1]

Your god, der Alte, is like the super-Caesar. Will he glorify, or will he condemn! Thumbs....down.

And we like the Romans are never sure one moment to the next whether he's prepared some list which bears our names and is headed 'sword' or 'dagger'.

Der Alte, God is not 'same same' like Caesar. He is unlike any other, His ways are above ours, unsearchable and yet distinctively knowable by the imprimatur of life, truth and fatherly love. That's why Jesus goes to cross, because the power of heaven is utterly different to the carnal powers of earth. The devil may wield the power of death, but God overcomes it by restoring life, and in abundance. Jesus came to do such things, not to terrorise ordinary folk with 'what ifs'.

You are correct except for one very important thing.

TO THEM THAT BELIEVE!

Heaven is only obtained by FAITH in Christ by THEM WHO ACCEPT JESUS as the Christ.

 

[Major1]

Some things I consider is, there's no real mention of hell in the entire Old Testament. Neither Moses nor the prophets said anything about it. The closest to it I can think of is Daniel 12:2.

Most of the time Jesus mentions Gehenna he's speaking figuratively and using hyperbolic language. "If your eye offends you, gouge it out..." Or he's telling a parable, in which again he uses figurative and symbolic language.

So a good chunk of Jesus talking about "hell" is in the form of figurative language and symbolism. A lot of which I think had to do with the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

Then there's Revelation. But again, that's also full of hyperbolic apocalyptic figurative symbolic language.

Fact........
No one talked more on HELL than did Jesus Christ!

What, do you suppose, might be the 'figure' ? If 'fire' is not literal then what unimaginable thing can 'fire' possibly indicate ? And how can it possibly be expressed, if Jesus himself, God's only begotten Son, did not express it ?

It would be absurd to describe those who no longer exist through unbiblical annihilation as being “punished.” As frightful as all of this may sound -- and it is meant to sound that way -- the lost will be tormented. And, whether that involves literal "worms that never die and fires that are never quenched" seems quite beside the point. Words can probably not describe the unfathomable horror of endless torture in flames.

All I know is that God said it and I am not as smart as God to tell anyone what He meant to say.