Christian Question - Please Answer :)

[Andrewn]

That is not what I asked. The Trinity defines God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; 3 (divine) persons one God (being). I’ve always seen a person and a being as the same, but apparently you guys see them as different so I’m asking what is the difference.

I find your statement to be unwarranted after referring you to where I showed the difference between the modern and the ancient definitions of the word "person."

 

[Andrewn]

In the Hebrew Scriptures, several people saw the LORD. How is it that no human may see the LORD and live?

Who? He has no shape or form. The brightness would be too much to withstand. He is outside of everything we would have go outside of Him.

People in Scripture Who Saw God: Appendix 5 of Immanuel a Practicum | Immanuel approach

20 Bible verses about Those Who Saw God

God, Privilege of Seeing

How did all these people see Yahweh and live?

 

[Andrewn]

And if this boils down to sentiments, it's even less reliable, because we are notoriously fallible in inferring agency and purpose behind general experiences and data; apophenia in particular

Forget about arguments then. Perhaps you should start attending church to get an experience of God.

 

[Robban]

People in Scripture Who Saw God: Appendix 5 of Immanuel a Practicum | Immanuel approach

20 Bible verses about Those Who Saw God

God, Privilege of Seeing

How did all these people see Yahweh and live?

Principle #3 of Jewish faith as penned by Maimonidies.

I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is incorporeal;
that He is free from all anthropomorthic properties;
and that He has no likeness at all.

 

[Andrewn]

How did all these people see Yahweh and live?

Principle #3 of Jewish faith as penned by Maimonidies. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is incorporeal; that He is free from all anthropomorthic properties; and that He has no likeness at all.

This is very nice but it doesn't answer my question. For example, how did father Abraham see and talk with and eat with Yahweh (Gen 18), unless Yahweh is the pre-incarnate Messiah? Who did Adam and Moses and Gideon and others meet? Who will resurrected saints live with? An incorporeal image? A big TV screen?

 

[Robban]

This is very nice but it doesn't answer my question. For example, how did the Patriarch Abraham see and talk with and eat with Yahweh (Gen 18), unless Yahweh is the pre-incarnate Messiah?

They were angels, messengers.

 

[Kris Jordan]

I honestly would prefer to spend my time reading fiction that can enrich my creative side rather than engage with apologists that use a modern construction of evidence to conclude fallaciously that something being probable means it must have happened

And my worldview is not exclusively Buddhist, I consider it a placeholder. But as for why, because it's actually intellectually honest enough to put the responsibility squarely on humans to address our problems instead of shifting everything back onto an outside source to "fix" us and expect obedience like proverbial servants in order to be "rewarded"

Hi Muichimotsu,

Thank you for your candid answers.

Regarding humans addressing our problems, there is nothing we can do to ever fix our sin problem. An imperfect person can't fix or redeem an imperfect person, nor can an imperfect person become perfect outside of God's redemption/salvation. That's why Jesus (God the Son) left the glory of heaven to be born on this earth. He lived a perfect life on our behalf, died a sacrificial death in our place on the cross (dying for the sins of everyone), and offers the gift of forgiveness, salvation, and healing for our otherwise impossible problem that only brings death (physically and spiritually). He did this because He loves us. He loves you. And the salvation He offers is His gift of grace to all of us who never deserve it but desperately need it.

Every religion of the world is man's way of getting to God or to a state of Godhood. Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship with the God of the Universe, the Creator, and the one Who loves us unconditionally. It's about our God who reached down from heaven to redeem us since we're incapable of doing that on our own.

I will pray for you. Jesus loves you whether you believe Him or not.

 

[Robban]

They were angels, messengers.

Divine presence,
"Word of G-d" is referred to as Shechinah,
"Word of G-d" the word of a King rules---
A King rules his kingdom through speech.

Our Sages said;
"The Shechinah speaks from the throat of Moses."

Moses own personality was so translucent-- he had so nullified himself to G-d--- that when he prophesied he did not relay what G-d told him to say, rather,
the Shechinah itself spoke through his mouth.


Can be taken as G-d revealed himself, though in speech.

 

[Andrewn]

They were angels, messengers.

I'll concentrate on Gen 18 and quote some verses for you to explain how they refer to angels. Can one seriously conclude that Yahweh was absent?

1 Yahweh appeared to Abraham by the oak trees belonging to Mamre as he was sitting at the entrance of his tent during the hottest part of the day.

3 He said, “My Lord, if I have found favor in Your sight, do not pass by Your servant.

10 Yahweh said, “I promise I’ll come back to you next year at this time, and your wife Sarah will have a son.” Sarah happened to be listening at the entrance of the tent, which was behind him.

13 Yahweh asked Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Can I really have a child now that I’m old?’

15 Because she was afraid, Sarah denied that she had laughed. But Yahweh said, “Yes, you did laugh.”

17 Yahweh said, “I shouldn’t hide what I am going to do from Abraham.

20 Yahweh also said, “Sodom and Gomorrah have many complaints against them, and their sin is very serious.

22 From there the men turned and went on toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing in front of Yahweh.

26 Yahweh said, “If I find 50 innocent people inside the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

28 what if there are 45 innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of 5 fewer people?” Yahweh answered, “I will not destroy it if I find 45 there.”

33 When Yahweh finished speaking to Abraham, he left. Abraham returned home.

 

[Robban]

I'll concentrate on Gen 18 and quote some verses for you to explain how they refer to angels. Can one seriously conclude that Yahweh was absent?

1 Yahweh appeared to Abraham by the oak trees belonging to Mamre as he was sitting at the entrance of his tent during the hottest part of the day.

3 He said, “My Lord, if I have found favor in Your sight, do not pass by Your servant.

10 Yahweh said, “I promise I’ll come back to you next year at this time, and your wife Sarah will have a son.” Sarah happened to be listening at the entrance of the tent, which was behind him.

13 Yahweh asked Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Can I really have a child now that I’m old?’

15 Because she was afraid, Sarah denied that she had laughed. But Yahweh said, “Yes, you did laugh.”

17 Yahweh said, “I shouldn’t hide what I am going to do from Abraham.

20 Yahweh also said, “Sodom and Gomorrah have many complaints against them, and their sin is very serious.

22 From there the men turned and went on toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing in front of Yahweh.

26 Yahweh said, “If I find 50 innocent people inside the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

28 what if there are 45 innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of 5 fewer people?” Yahweh answered, “I will not destroy it if I find 45 there.”

33 When Yahweh finished speaking to Abraham, he left. Abraham returned home.

Have read my last post?

 

[Andrewn]

Have read my last post?

How would the Shechinah speaking from the throat of Moses explain the verses I quoted? Please don't give me puzzles and expect me to guess what you mean .

 

[Robban]

How would the Shechinah speaking from the throat of Moses explain the verses I quoted? Please don't give me puzzles and expect me to guess what you mean .

It was not meant to be a puzzle.
(Hillel would say;
Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will be ultimately understood).

Writing has never been my strong point but I do the best I can.

It may be a puzzle to you but not to me.

In any case you can chew it over,

we do not see things the same way and that is about it.

 

[Kris Jordan]

That is not what I asked. The Trinity defines God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; 3 (divine) persons one God (being). I’ve always seen a person and a being as the same, but apparently you guys see them as different so I’m asking what is the difference.

Hi Ken-1122,

I'm not sure I can give you exactly what you're looking for since I'm not super clear on what your difficulty is regarding Being and Person. But let me try to explain a few differences and see if it helps:

Human beings (People):

• We are created beings;
• We are physical beings;
• We have a beginning to our existence (therefor, are not eternal in nature or essence);
• We have a sinful, unholy, and impure nature;
• We are not divine

Spiritual beings (Angels and Demons):

• They are created beings;
• They are spiritual beings;
• They had a beginning to their existence (therefore, are not eternal in nature or essence);
• Angels are sinless, yet not divine;
• Demons are sinful, and not divine;

Divine Being: (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit):

• He is not a created Being;
• He is an eternal Being;
• He has no beginning or end;
• He is perfect and holy;
• He is Divine

Are you saying men on behalf of the Catholic Church did not coin the term Trinity? If its not in the Bible, yet it is a part of your creed, where did it come from?

Just to clarify, I'm not Catholic. However, the doctrine of the Trinity is in the Bible. The "term" Trinity is used to define that clearly taught doctrine. Much like the word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible, it's the term used to define that doctrine or the "catching away" that is taught.

So which scriptures in the Bible speaks of the Trinity?

There are far too many to post in their entirety, but here is a sampling:

• Then God said, “Let Us [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
  Genesis 1:26-27

• For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:20-21

• God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds...Hebrews 1:1-2

• Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”-therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. Genesis 3:22-23

• Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Luke 3:21-22 (NASB)
  
  
• The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all 2 Corinthians 13:14

We do know how those things work, it’s just there are some things about those things that we don’t know. We may not know everything there is to know about electricity, but how it works with a light switch, that we do know.

Exactly! God has given us His written Word, the Bible, so we can know Him personally. There are some things we won't "fully get" about Him while on this earth, but there is lots to know of Him based upon what He has created and what His Word tells us. It really comes down to faith. Do we believe or don't we?

John writes in John 20:30-31: And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

 

[Andrewn]

It was not meant to be a puzzle. (Hillel would say; Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will be ultimately understood).

There is great wisdom to learn from Jewish sages.

"Maimonides ("Moreh," i. 28 [Munk's translation, "Guide des Egarés," i. 58, 73, 88, 286, 288; iii. 43, 93]; Maybaum, l.c.pp. 5, 34) regarded the Shekinah, like the Memra, the Yeḳara, and the Logos, as a distinct entity, and as a light created to be an intermediary between God and the world; while Naḥmanides (Maybaum, l.c.), on the other hand, considered it the essence of God as manifested in a distinct form.'

SHEKINAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Perhaps his view is not far from what I wrote about G-d presenting himself in a corporeal form while at the same time no one can see G-d and live. This distinct entity or distinct manifestation (Shekinah, Memra, Yeḳara, Logos) Christians call the Messiah / King / Lord.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the Shekinah of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them.

 

[timothyu]

Then God said, “Let Us [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made

Ken-1122 - using Kris's quotes... consider all of creation is energy. God is energy. What is 'matter' but energy in various forms. What is in energy that dictates those forms but a trinity of wavelength, frequency and amplitude in their infinite number of variations. So religion, specifically Christianity here is just a way we limited humans try to explain such that is well beyond the scope of our abilities to fully comprehend. But we have two options. We can follow the natural flow or we can follow the path of the short circuit that is man,

 

[timothyu]

There is great wisdom to learn from Jewish sages.

Sadly Gentile Christianity wanted to make it all about themselves and moved away from the original church. (Understanding of course that it was God's will they be allowed to do so in order for NT scripture to not become lost as an ancient tradition like the Hebrew family it came from... Truth has a way of moving forward even in the hands of the enemy)

 

[Andrewn]

So religion, specifically Christianity here is just a way we limited humans try to explain such that is well beyond the scope of our abilities to fully comprehend.

I need to think more about this. But my first impression is that it's not true. Christianity is not humans trying to explain God. Christianity is God trying to revel Himself.

When people try to explain God, they come up with polytheism, where there can be thousands of gods. Or they come up with one powerful God up there and a few precepts to appease him. Or they realize they can't understand God and they come up with something like Buddhism or Atheism.

Christianity teaches that God is Love. I'm not aware this concept was ever revealed before Christ. Who would invent a God that is love and a Savior who humbled himself?

I think God wants us to understand Him and that saints who walk with Him daily actually do.

 

[timothyu]

I think God wants us to understand Him and that saints who walk with Him daily actually do.

Wasn't that the purpose of quarantining us here outside the Garden? So that we might learn that our will leads to nothing but trouble while his will is not only the cure but the way.

 

[muichimotsu]

Forget about arguments then. Perhaps you should start attending church to get an experience of God.

Oh, but which one? The question is manifold in that 1) how do you know which one's correct in the first place and 2) how do you know that one will change me at all rather than one that you don't think is correct?

That's why experience is not the primary aspect of determining truth, it's just the necessary starting point, after which we rationally consider it for verification, falsification, etc

 

[muichimotsu]

Just to clarify, I'm not Catholic. However, the doctrine of the Trinity is in the Bible. The "term" Trinity is used to define that clearly taught doctrine. Much like the word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible, it's the term used to define that doctrine or the "catching away" that is taught.





There are far too many to post in their entirety, but here is a sampling:

• Then God said, “Let Us [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
  Genesis 1:26-27

• For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:20-21

• God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds...Hebrews 1:1-2

• Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”-therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. Genesis 3:22-23

• Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Luke 3:21-22 (NASB)
  
  
• The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all 2 Corinthians 13:14

You do realize the Genesis verses wouldn't be interpreted by Jews as reflecting the Trinity, right? God would've been speaking in the royal plural, effectively, not actually indicating plurality of its nature.

It's easy (and overly convenient) to interpret the NT verses in favor of the Trinity (as supposed orthodoxy), but even they don't necessarily have that as the sole valid interpretation