Christian Question - Please Answer :)

[Kris Jordan]

So you believe it, even though you don't understand it.

Hi Ken-1122,

I believe what God says in the Bible. He is One God in three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Each member of the Godhead is fully God, yet they are One. As to the "how that all works" element or the "how can One be Three" component, my finite mind can't fully grasp it all. But I grasp it enough and I believe it completely.

It depends on how you are defining “flesh” in this context. If flesh means one spirit, or unit, I can understand them being one from a religious view in this context. If flesh is being defined as a single human body, then humans are not one in that context.

Obviously it doesn't mean the two individuals cease being two physical beings, yet they are "one" according to God. Again, "how that all works" or "how can two be one" is somewhat of a mystery in that regard. But God, who is the creator and instituter of marriage, says its so, and so it is. We don't get all the ramifications of it, but it doesn't take away from the fact that heterosexual married couples are one, yet two separate and distinct individuals.

When I said “people who originated the trinity” the trinity was originated by the Catholic Church. I was asking if the people of the Catholic Church who originated it understood it, we should be able to understand it as well.

Born-again Christians can and do understand the Trinity/Godhead, just not "fully" in every single respect, as I've stated previously. We believe what God says about Himself in the Bible, and the things He doesn't disclose or elaborate on completely we leave for when we see Him face to face - because, at that point, we'll "fully" get it all (1 Corinthians 13:12 -- "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.")

 

[ViaCrucis]

Actually it is being multiplied. The same way if I you had children, you would share your genes (being essence) with your children, but it is not one, it is now multiple between yourself and your children, not just one. God the father charing his essence/being with others does not change the fact that they are still multiple; it doesn't make them one, to do so would be a contradiction.

And that's where our speaking of the Father and the Son, of the generation ("begotten-ness") of the Son from the Father, etc breaks down as far as any comparison to earthly relationships go. Because it isn't about God siring. God is not producing another god. Like a horse procreates and you get another horse. That's why the Nicene Creed, for example, says "begotten, not made".

This was really important in the Arian controversy. Arius' main argument was that since the Son is begotten of the Father, then there must have been a time when the Son was not, and that in the "act" of begetting the Son was brought into existence. And, therefore, Arius reasoned the Son was another God. There were, therefore, two Gods: The Father who was uncreated and eternal, and the Son who came to be at some point in the most ancient past. This is why in one of the Arian creeds (specifically the one drawn up by the bishop Wulfila, Latinized as Ulfilas) we read,

"I, Wulfila, bishop and confessor, have always believed and thus and in this sole and true faith make my journey to my Lord, I believe that there is only one God the Father, alone unbegotten and invisible, and in His only-begotten Son, our Lord and God, creator and maker of all things, not having any like unto Him. Therefore there is one God of all, who is also God of our God," - From the Creed of Ulfilas, as recorded in the letter of Auxentius

In contrast, the council fathers at Nicea argued that the Son in being begotten does not make Him a creature, but rather that His generation is something that is eternal, timeless, and not like what we mean when we speak of fathers begetting sons in an earthly, creaturely sense. Hence they say "begotten of the Father before all ages", "begotten, not made", etc. Their phrase "before all ages" meaning "eternally", before and outside of time. There was, therefore, never a time the Son did not exist.

God does not beget another God; neither a heterousios (another-being) nor a homoiousios (similar-being), but a homoousios (same-being). God, therefore, has begotten God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Kris Jordan]

So you believe it, even though you don't understand it.

Hi Ken-1122,

One more thing for you to think about regarding us not being able to "fully comprehend" God and His Triune Being: As human beings, we can know each other and have relationships with one another without "fully" knowing or comprehending every single aspect of each other. Take men and women, for example. Men can't possibly "fully know" everything about their wives, girlfriends, moms, daughters, female friends, etc. Some of that is a mystery, and rightly so. But that doesn't negate their ability to love them for what they do know about them (or for what has been disclosed by that person). They are also able to love them while allowing the unknown things about them to be learned or discovered in time.

God gives us enough about Himself to believe Him and love Him. It is up to us whether or not we choose to.

 

[Ken-1122]

Hi Ken-1122,

I believe what God says in the Bible. He is One God in three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Each member of the Godhead is fully God, yet they are One.

Does the Bible actually say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are fully God? Perhaps I missed that part; which scripture is this?

Obviously it doesn't mean the two individuals cease being two physical beings, yet they are "one" according to God. Again, "how that all works" or "how can two be one" is somewhat of a mystery in that regard.

I don’t see a mystery here. Two individual people can become one couple, one group, anything that is or can be defined as plural. But something that by definition is singular; like person, being, individual etc. to attempt to make it multiple is a contradiction in terms.

Born-again Christians can and do understand the Trinity/Godhead, just not "fully" in every single respect, as I've stated previously.

I wasn’t asking for you to explain everything, just to the extent those of the Catholic Church understood.

 

[Ken-1122]

And that's where our speaking of the Father and the Son, of the generation ("begotten-ness") of the Son from the Father, etc breaks down as far as any comparison to earthly relationships go. Because it isn't about God siring. God is not producing another god. Like a horse procreates and you get another horse. That's why the Nicene Creed, for example, says "begotten, not made".

This was really important in the Arian controversy. Arius' main argument was that since the Son is begotten of the Father, then there must have been a time when the Son was not, and that in the "act" of begetting the Son was brought into existence. And, therefore, Arius reasoned the Son was another God. There were, therefore, two Gods: The Father who was uncreated and eternal, and the Son who came to be at some point in the most ancient past. This is why in one of the Arian creeds (specifically the one drawn up by the bishop Wulfila, Latinized as Ulfilas) we read,

"I, Wulfila, bishop and confessor, have always believed and thus and in this sole and true faith make my journey to my Lord, I believe that there is only one God the Father, alone unbegotten and invisible, and in His only-begotten Son, our Lord and God, creator and maker of all things, not having any like unto Him. Therefore there is one God of all, who is also God of our God," - From the Creed of Ulfilas, as recorded in the letter of Auxentius

In contrast, the council fathers at Nicea argued that the Son in being begotten does not make Him a creature, but rather that His generation is something that is eternal, timeless, and not like what we mean when we speak of fathers begetting sons in an earthly, creaturely sense. Hence they say "begotten of the Father before all ages", "begotten, not made", etc. Their phrase "before all ages" meaning "eternally", before and outside of time. There was, therefore, never a time the Son did not exist.

God does not beget another God; neither a heterousios (another-being) nor a homoiousios (similar-being), but a homoousios (same-being). God, therefore, has begotten God.

-CryptoLutheran

What does it mean to begotten? I've always thought of it as past tense of "begat". But to begat means to bring into existence, which (according to you) Jesus was not.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What does it mean to begotten? I've always thought of it as past tense of "begat". But to begat means to bring into existence, which (according to you) Jesus was not.

The word is a translation of the Greek γεννάω (gennao), "to be born", "produced", "to bring forth"; and in a usual sense, at least by implication, it would indicate a coming-into-existance. After all, that's what happens when a creature procreates. Which is also why Arius insisted that Jesus, being begotten, meant at some point He wasn't, and then He was; and thus to be begotten had to mean (for Arius) that Jesus was created.

The argument put forward at Nicea is, basically, that we aren't speaking in the natural sense, but are attempting to capture an idea. So the analogy of birth can only be taken so far in describing this. Jesus says His Source and Origin is God the Father, and so that language of origination is something to be taken seriously, but we are also talking about something outside of time and space, as Jesus and His Origin are co-eternal. The ancient fathers saw the statement in John's prologue, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"; while we translate this as "the Word was with God" the Greek carries some more nuance, more like "the Word was face-toward God". Later on in the prologue the writer speaks of Christ, the Son and Word, as being "in the bosom of the Father", its a term of immense intimacy.

So we have these two senses: That the Son has His Source from the Father, and the Son is just as "old" as the Father. So the Son's generation--His being begotten--isn't a "birth" (in the natural sense), but rather a way of speaking of an intimate relationship between the One and the Other; the Father is an eternal Father, the Son is an eternal Son. The Father eternally gives, He eternally begets. It is this eternal begetting that makes Him "the Father".

I am personally drawn to how Fr. Balthasar puts it in his work Credo, a devotional or meditation on the articles of the Apostles' Creed, here Balthasar writes,

"That he is Father we know in utmost fullness from Jesus Christ, who constantly makes loving, thankful,
and reverent reference to him as his Origin. It is because he bears fruit out of himself and requires no
fructifying that he is called Father, and not in the sexual sense, for he will be the Creator of man and
woman, and thus contains the primal qualities of woman in himself in the same simultaneously
transcending way as those of man. (The Greek gennad can imply both siring and bearing, as can the word for to come into being: ginomai.) Jesus’ words indicate that this fruitful self-surrender by the primal Origin has neither beginning nor end: It is a perpetual occurrence in which essence and activity coincide. Herein lies the most unfathomable aspect of the Mystery of God: that what is absolutely primal is no statically self-contained and comprehensible reality, but one that exists solely in dispensing itself: a flowing wellspring with no holding-trough beneath it, an act of procreation with no seminal vesicle, with no organism at all to perform the act. In the pure act of self-pouring-forth, God the Father is his self, or, if one wishes, a “person” (in a transcending way)." - Hans Urs von Balthasar, Credo

Yes, the language is flowery, but then Balthasar here is providing a devotional, a meditation. As such it's more an invitation to contemplate the Apostles' Creed more so than to simply expound upon it analytically. But even so, I think Balthasar beautifully captures the point.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Kris Jordan]

So I've always been confused on the matter but never really reached out to ask and if I did, I would've still not understood it but the question is, you know how Jesus Christ talks to God, His father numerous times throughout the Holy Bible, well, is Jesus Christ talking to Himself? If Jesus Christ is God in human form and if He is talking to God, His Father, then isn't He conversing with Himself in two separate areas, one on Earth and one in Heaven? Please help me understand this.

Hi Joshua5,

With all the sidebars on this thread, did you get clarification on your original question?

 

[Kris Jordan]

Does the Bible actually say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are fully God? Perhaps I missed that part; which scripture is this?

Hi Ken-1122,

Glad you asked because there are several.

Jesus' Deity:
One of the most compelling pieces of evidence regarding Jesus’ Deity can be found at His birth when God the Father commanded the angels to worship Him (Hebrews 1:6). This is powerful because, before His birth, God the Father declared in the Ten Commandments, “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...” (Exodus 20:3-5a). Therefore, by commanding the angels to worship Jesus, God the Father is explicitly and unequivocally confirming that Jesus is God, and, therefore, rightfully worthy of worship.

Another irrefutable biblical fact that substantiates Jesus’ Deity is found in the books of Isaiah and Revelation concerning the title, “the First and the Last.” In the Old Testament book of Isaiah, the title “the First and the Last” strictly refers to Jehovah God, the LORD, who declares that, apart from Him, there is no God. In the New Testament book of Revelation, “the First and the Last” spoke to John while John was exiled on the island of Patmos. His exact words to him were, “I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen” (Revelation 1:17-18). This statement is a direct reference to Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was raised to life again. Therefore, God, “the First and the Last” of the Old Testament, is specifically identified as Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

Additional Scriptures regarding Jesus' Divinity are as follows. Let me know if you'd like more than what's below:

• But of the Son He (the Father) says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain; and they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.” Hebrews 1:8-12

• In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it… He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-5; 10-14

• He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Colossians 1:15-20

• And He (Jesus) is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “and let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says, “Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire.” But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain; and they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.” But to which of the angels has He ever said, “Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”? Hebrews 1:3-13

• For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. Isaiah 9:6-7

• Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:5

• For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. Colossians 2:9-10

• Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” John 8:58 NOTE: (In Exodus 3:14, God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”)

• I and the Father are one. John 10:30

The Holy Spirit's Deity:
The Holy Spirit possesses all the attributes and characteristics of God. The Holy Spirit was actively involved in creation, the incarnation, and the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. To the Christian, He is a helper, One Who strengthens, a Comforter, Counselor and Teacher. In addition, He plays an active role in the salvation process; and thereafter, He indwells believers personally and empowers them to be effective witnesses to the world. He dispenses and enables spiritual gifts according to His will. He also produces spiritual fruit in and through believers as they walk in obedience to God by the strength that He provides. He also has an important role in the unbelieving world, convicting every person of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

Additional Scriptures regarding the Holy Spirit's Divinity are as follows. Let me know if you'd like more than what's below:

• "...Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Acts 5:3-4

• Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will lay hold of me. Psalm 139:7-10

• But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

• How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

• It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. John 6:63

• For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:10b-13

• You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. Acts 10:38

 

[muichimotsu]

Likewise, neither argumentum ad incredulum nor argumentum ad ignorantium provide a valid argument against something.

-CryptoLutheran

Don't believe I've made that argument either way, you can point out otherwise. I'm not convinced of the arguments and supposed "evidence" for God's existence, that's not the same as making the claim "God does not exist", right?

 

[muichimotsu]

Hi Andrewn,

Thanks for posting those verses. They are some of my favorites! I love the saying one of my favorite pastors uses: "There are no deceased atheists."

They may die as such, but it all changes the moment they enter into eternity and realize the God they refused to believe in is absolutely real and His love for them was (and is) genuine. I just hope they figure it out on this side of eternity before it's too late to repent of their sin and be saved. That is my prayer...

Wow, what a "loving" concept to talk about atheists that are dead as if they just got their just reward instead of actually withholding judgment as to their status, since you're not the god that supposedly can make those decisions, unlike yourself

 

[muichimotsu]

Being = be-ing, is-ness, what a thing is.
Person = Someone, who-ness, agency.

Bob is a human being. Human is Bob's being, Bob is the person.

-CryptoLutheran

So God has dissociative identity disorder, got it. (sarcasm, but a point regardless if you're saying this Trinity is one essence but 3 agents, which still sounds like modalism)

 

[muichimotsu]

Hi Muichimotsu,

That is incorrect. But it sounds like we need to agree that we completely disagree.

You can claim it's incorrect, but I'm pretty sure if we both asked Jews about those Genesis verses, they're not going to conclude God is 3 in 1, so...by all means, continue to be willfully ignorant, your choice

 

[muichimotsu]

Hi Muichimotsu,

Well, one day you will know God is real and His Word is true and absolute - and that He loves you beyond comprehension. Blessings to you, in Jesus' name.

Way to be passive aggressive, not that you'd seemingly have the wherewithal to even recognize that rather than remaining complacent and obedient. I'd prefer imperfect human love to whatever atrocity you'd call your god's "love"

 

[muichimotsu]

Rom 14:10-11 We all will stand in front of the judgment seat of God. Because it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.

Phi 2:9-11 Therefore, God highly honored him and gave him a name above all names, so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth might bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The atheists would rather argue with you and ViaCrucis about the Trinity. I'm outa here .

Because why deal with substantive arguments instead of just asserting your convictions and make circular arguments appealing to the bible which already agrees with you. So much easier.

 

[Rajni]

No one ever said the Trinity was simple. In fact, it's beyond our comprehension.

Well someone must have comprehended it, otherwise a word
wouldn't have been applied to it and there wouldn't be people
believing it's actually a thing.


-

 

[timothyu]

Well someone must have comprehended it, otherwise a word
wouldn't have been applied to it and there wouldn't be people
believing it's actually a thing.

Perhaps it started in another manner and as time wore on and the original concept had become outdated, there were changes made to have the concept fall more in line with Christianity the religion rather than Christianity the secular partner.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Wow, what a "loving" concept to talk about atheists that are dead as if they just got their just reward instead of actually withholding judgment as to their status, since you're not the god that supposedly can make those decisions, unlike yourself

Hi Muichimotsu,

It's sad and devastating to know that those who die without believing in Jesus Christ for their salvation are eternally lost. There is no satisfaction on my part in what I wrote. I was simply making the point that anyone who dies an "atheist" will no longer be one afterwards. It will just be too late at that point, which is not something to rejoice over.

To be loving is to warn those who are driving blindly and about to veer off a cliff. To be silent is cruel. Therefore:

• "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:2)

• "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: 'Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.'" (Hebrews 3:12-15)

 

[Kris Jordan]

You can claim it's incorrect, but I'm pretty sure if we both asked Jews about those Genesis verses, they're not going to conclude God is 3 in 1, so...by all means, continue to be willfully ignorant, your choice

Hi Muichimotsu,

It doesn't matter what anyone else concludes or believes about something. It only matters what God says and whether we believe Him. Each of us will be held accountable with what we do with Him and His Son whom He sent to save us.

If every single person doesn't believe God is a Triune God and yet He is, what does it matter? It proves nothing other than billions of people were dead wrong.

• Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Hebrews 3:12-15

 

[muichimotsu]

Hi Muichimotsu,

It's sad and devastating to know that those who die without believing in Jesus Christ for their salvation are eternally lost. There is no satisfaction on my part in what I wrote. I was simply making the point that anyone who dies an "atheist" will no longer be one afterwards. It will just be too late at that point, which is not something to rejoice over.

To be loving is to warn those who are driving blindly and about to veer off a cliff. To be silent is cruel. Therefore:

• "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:2)

• "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: 'Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.'" (Hebrews 3:12-15)

Except driving off a cliff has demonstrable consequences, you can't remotely show anything in regards to your deity or the afterlife, it's speculative if we're being generous, if not just imaginary systems to comfort you in the face of uncertainty

You don't get to insinuate your view of reality reflects on others without offering substantive support rather than just your conviction and sentiment

 

[muichimotsu]

Hi Muichimotsu,

It doesn't matter what anyone else concludes or believes about something. It only matters what God says and whether we believe Him. Each of us will be held accountable with what we do with Him and His Son whom He sent to save us.

If every single person doesn't believe God is a Triune God and yet He is, what does it matter? It proves nothing other than billions of people were dead wrong.

• Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Hebrews 3:12-15

Except one cannot verify God or what it says, you have secondhand accounts at best in regards to supposed revelation and again, you're begging the question in your argument rather than actually offering support for it that isn't fallacious and circular. The Bible is not support for claims you believe that originate in the Bible