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Christian Question - Please Answer :)

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Kris Jordan

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Way to be passive aggressive, not that you'd seemingly have the wherewithal to even recognize that rather than remaining complacent and obedient. I'd prefer imperfect human love to whatever atrocity you'd call your god's "love"

Hi Muichimotsu,

I'm not sure where all the animosity is coming from and why the desire to condescend, especially when it comes to Almighty God who loves you beyond measure. But as I stated earlier, I will pray for you and ask that many blessings come your way. :)
 
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Kris Jordan

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Except driving off a cliff has demonstrable consequences, you can't remotely show anything in regards to your deity or the afterlife, it's speculative if we're being generous, if not just imaginary systems to comfort you in the face of uncertainty

You don't get to insinuate your view of reality reflects on others without offering substantive support rather than just your conviction and sentiment

Hi Muichimotsu,

God gives us many proofs, but faith must be present as well.

  • "Whoever comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who love Him."
  • "Without faith, it is impossible to please God."

The most reliable source of information is God's Word, which you reject. The created world and all it's glories declare the majesty of God, but you reject it and Him.

God has given you more than enough proof to believe but you refuse.

  • For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21 (NKJV)
 
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eik

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So I've always been confused on the matter but never really reached out to ask and if I did, I would've still not understood it but the question is, you know how Jesus Christ talks to God, His father numerous times throughout the Holy Bible, well, is Jesus Christ talking to Himself? If Jesus Christ is God in human form and if He is talking to God, His Father, then isn't He conversing with Himself in two separate areas, one on Earth and one in Heaven? Please help me understand this.
The strong trinity posits God as three persons, although as to heaven God appears to us as one person (Deut 6:4) as affirmed in Heb. 1;3 (God has one hypostasis). Associated with the "three-persons" doctrine (which is an inappropriate and unscriptural way of describing what sits on God's throne as it involves anthropomorphizing God himself into the likeness of man in common with paganism) is a strange theory, that is similar to gnostism in too many aspects, being that Jesus retained the form of God, as if a mere mortal who could die could ever be in the form of God. Jesus was strictly the Son of God.
Although being the Son of God infers divinity, which Jesus conceded, divinity was limited by his human aspect, and indeed limited to his conception and to his origination, and by extrapolation, to his remaining one with God in spirit in his lifetime. He could claim identity with God only because of where he came from. and because he remained in the Father and the Father in him. For in every way he was like unto a man (Heb. 2:17). So he could not engage in communications with God the Father other than by the spirit, which was given him, and by prayer, as any other human.
 
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Rajni

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It's sad and devastating to know that those who die without believing in Jesus Christ for their salvation are eternally lost.
The good news is that people don't know that.
They believe it, but they cannot prove it's actually
happening that way.


-
 
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Andrewn

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The strong trinity posits God as three persons, although as to heaven God appears to us as one person (Deut 6:4) as affirmed in Heb. 1;3 (God has one hypostasis). Associated with the "three-persons" doctrine (which is an inappropriate and unscriptural way of describing what sits on God's throne as it involves anthropomorphizing God himself into the likeness of man in common with paganism) is a strange theory,
You make a very interesting point. The KJV mistranslates Heb 1:3 as follows:

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The word mistranslated as "person" is the Greek "hypostasis." Archbishop Rowan Williams makes the point repeatedly that "hypostasis" in the Bible means the same thing as "ousia," that is essence or substance. He is right and he is not the only one to understand the word correctly. Even the ancient Vulgate understood the word correctly:

3 qui cum sit splendor gloriae et figura substantiae eius portansque omnia verbo virtutis suae purgationem peccatorum faciens sedit ad dexteram Maiestatis in excelsis

The American Standard Version produced around 1900 reads:

3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Most modern translations render "hypostasis" into "nature" or "being." For example, the EHV has:

3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of the divine nature. He sustains all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins,he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

But words change meaning over time. And "hypostasis" changed meaning in the 4th century under influence of the Cappadocian Fathers who considered the Trinity "one ousia in 3 hypostases." This is how God came to have 3 hypostases rather than the 1 hypostasis mentioned in Hebrews.

The word "hypostasis" in not mentioned in the Nicene Creed. But now, we're stuck with it. This is not bad so long we define "hypostases" properly and not translate it into "persons."

As you said, "God appears to us as one person (Deut 6:4)." When we tell each other or non_Christians that we believe God is "1 person or being in 3 persons," we make fools of ourselves and appear utterly gullible and untrustworthy, even though we mean well.

Although being the Son of God infers divinity, which Jesus conceded, divinity was limited by his human aspect. . . . So he could not engage in communications with God the Father other than by the spirit, which was given him, and by prayer, as any other human.
This is a good answer to the OP. I think this is consistent with Phi 2:

6 who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
7 But He emptied Himself,
taking upon Himself the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Except one cannot verify God or what it says, you have secondhand accounts at best in regards to supposed revelation and again, you're begging the question in your argument rather than actually offering support for it that isn't fallacious and circular. The Bible is not support for claims you believe that originate in the Bible

Hi Muichimotsu,

I encourage you to read "Evidence That Demands A Verdict." Blessings! :)
 
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Ken-1122

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Hi Ken-1122,

Glad you asked because there are several.

Jesus' Deity:
One of the most compelling pieces of evidence regarding Jesus’ Deity can be found at His birth when God the Father commanded the angels to worship Him (Hebrews 1:6). This is powerful because, before His birth, God the Father declared in the Ten Commandments, “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...” (Exodus 20:3-5a). Therefore, by commanding the angels to worship Jesus, God the Father is explicitly and unequivocally confirming that Jesus is God, and, therefore, rightfully worthy of worship.

Another irrefutable biblical fact that substantiates Jesus’ Deity is found in the books of Isaiah and Revelation concerning the title, “the First and the Last.” In the Old Testament book of Isaiah, the title “the First and the Last” strictly refers to Jehovah God, the LORD, who declares that, apart from Him, there is no God. In the New Testament book of Revelation, “the First and the Last” spoke to John while John was exiled on the island of Patmos. His exact words to him were, “I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen” (Revelation 1:17-18). This statement is a direct reference to Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was raised to life again. Therefore, God, “the First and the Last” of the Old Testament, is specifically identified as Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

Additional Scriptures regarding Jesus' Divinity are as follows. Let me know if you'd like more than what's below:

  • But of the Son He (the Father) says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain; and they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.” Hebrews 1:8-12

  • In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it… He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-5; 10-14

  • He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Colossians 1:15-20

  • And He (Jesus) is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “and let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says, “Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire.” But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain; and they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.” But to which of the angels has He ever said, “Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”? Hebrews 1:3-13

  • For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. Isaiah 9:6-7

  • Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:5

  • For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. Colossians 2:9-10

  • Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” John 8:58 NOTE: (In Exodus 3:14, God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”)

  • I and the Father are one. John 10:30

The Holy Spirit's Deity:
The Holy Spirit possesses all the attributes and characteristics of God. The Holy Spirit was actively involved in creation, the incarnation, and the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. To the Christian, He is a helper, One Who strengthens, a Comforter, Counselor and Teacher. In addition, He plays an active role in the salvation process; and thereafter, He indwells believers personally and empowers them to be effective witnesses to the world. He dispenses and enables spiritual gifts according to His will. He also produces spiritual fruit in and through believers as they walk in obedience to God by the strength that He provides. He also has an important role in the unbelieving world, convicting every person of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

Additional Scriptures regarding the Holy Spirit's Divinity are as follows. Let me know if you'd like more than what's below:

  • "...Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Acts 5:3-4

  • Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will lay hold of me. Psalm 139:7-10

  • But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

  • How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

  • It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. John 6:63

  • For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:10b-13

  • You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. Acts 10:38
So though it may not say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, there are various scriptures that implies they are deity. Is that correct?
 
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Kris Jordan

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So though it may not say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, there are various scriptures that implies they are deity. Is that correct?

Hi Ken-1122,

No, that is not correct. Read them ALL again. :)
 
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eik

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You make a very interesting point. The KJV mistranslates Heb 1:3 as follows:

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The word mistranslated as "person" is the Greek "hypostasis." Archbishop Rowan Williams makes the point repeatedly that "hypostasis" in the Bible means the same thing as "ousia," that is essence or substance. He is right and he is not the only one to understand the word correctly. Even the ancient Vulgate understood the word correctly:

3 qui cum sit splendor gloriae et figura substantiae eius portansque omnia verbo virtutis suae purgationem peccatorum faciens sedit ad dexteram Maiestatis in excelsis

The American Standard Version produced around 1900 reads:

3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Most modern translations render "hypostasis" into "nature" or "being." For example, the EHV has:

3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of the divine nature. He sustains all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins,he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

But words change meaning over time. And "hypostasis" changed meaning in the 4th century under influence of the Cappadocian Fathers who considered the Trinity "one ousia in 3 hypostases." This is how God came to have 3 hypostases rather than the 1 hypostasis mentioned in Hebrews.

The word "hypostasis" in not mentioned in the Nicene Creed. But now, we're stuck with it. This is not bad so long we define "hypostases" properly and not translate it into "persons."
Thanks for the info. Sure I can live with hypostasis not being translated into person because that would be, as I pointed out, a completely unacceptable anthropomorphism of God. God is spirit and the antithesis of a corporal person. The son being the "image" of the hypostasis of God is to admit to the impossibility of distinguishing the one from the other by men, except by the gospel revelation, and also deny equality of order, in that the Son (or rather the Word) is "God" by his association with God (John 1:1). So he is God because he was with God at the beginning, which is a subordinate order of divinity but not a subordinate form of divinity, which is what Christ himself taught ("the Father is greater that I" &etc).

As you said, "God appears to us as one person (Deut 6:4)." When we tell each other or non_Christians that we believe God is "1 person or being in 3 persons," we make fools of ourselves and appear utterly gullible and untrustworthy, even though we mean well.

This is a good answer to the OP. I think this is consistent with Phi 2:

6 who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
7 But He emptied Himself,
taking upon Himself the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men.
The OP's problem surely comes from the strong trinitarian doctrine of the hypostatic union of God with man. If Christ is a union of God with Man, then why would he need to pray at all, as he still retains the form of God? So the man-invented hypostatic union formulation is not an ideal way of describing the person of Christ, but was the basis of the Roman tyranny over all the other churches in the world by Pope Leo I.
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread is closed. It is off topic to the Ethics & Morality forum as it is a theological question.
A number of posts, therefore, are violations.
 
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