Christian only forums? Really?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Debates are often unspiritual. That's my opinion anyway.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

That may very well be true in the Christian context, but quoting the Bible would go like water off a duck's back to an athiest because he doesn't believe the Bible. Bible verses are not magic. Just quoting them doesn't invoke the powerful and irresistible voice that occurred when Paul Atreides in the movie "Dune" got his enemies to do what he wanted them to do. Bible verses do not have that magical quality on their own. They have impact only when the Holy Spirit speaks specifically through them, and that happens around once in a hundred times, and only for a definite purpose determined by the Holy Spirit.

When the apostle Paul debated with the philosphers at Athens, he didn't quote Jewish scripture at them. He debated with them. It says in another place in the book of Acts that he spent time persuading his listeners to believe the Gospel. He didn't quote Jewish scriptures in the hope that these would magically change their minds. On two occasions he gave his testimony of how me met Christ on the Damascus Road, to King Agrippa, and the Roman Governor. It also says that he met with the Roman governor Felix on a number of occasions, having discussions with him. If Paul had the same attitude toward unbelievers as is indicated in your post, he might not have bothered. But in reality, Paul was prepared to debate and discuss with anyone who came across his path. That's why he was such a powerful missionary and evangelist in the Early Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

My advice to the OP is to just walk away from this thread and start posting. No offense, but the thread came off as a tiny bit confrontational, which led to confrontational replies that may or may not show the forum in the very best light. I will say that he's Single and for example, if he searches the website, there is a whole forum for Singles here where people don't really date but do have light chat, for example. There are also boards here where, once he reads the rules, he might just be able to make threads accordingly on religion.

I am trying to be the "good guy" toward the OP here. (Though I'm also pretty sensitive to atheists who try to convert me, he hasn't but just throwing it out there so people know not to do it or try it.)

LOL, I was thinking to myself earlier, that I can't post in the "Singles" forum, and you all do ask some interesting chatty questions sometimes. Sometimes I even read the threads. But they scroll by in the "new" threads and I click on them and want to reply, but I can't ... and it has nothing to do with being single, such that I shouldn't be able to reply.

I've thought of repeating some of your questions in another thread elsewhere, but maybe I'm frivolous and times and others might not want to reply. Just not sure.

But yes, I can relate to being shut out ...


And I agree that it can be good advice to just start your own thread on the same topic ...

 

[W2L]

That may very well be true in the Christian context, but quoting the Bible would go like water off a duck's back to an athiest because he doesn't believe the Bible.

Yes, i know that, but consider this scripture.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[c]

 

[erealmz]

Yes, i know that, but consider this scripture.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[c]

Yes, i know that, but consider this scripture.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[c]

And how much touch do you give to that that is unclean? Those thoughts you have.... About certain things. Do you entertain them? Or do you swiftly rebuke them with great success? And how long will this battle go on? When will you find peace from such wicked temptations? When you die? Was it really worth doing battle your whole life only to find out that it was in vein?

Sure you could shut the door and close all the curtains. Let in only the saints. Create a mental bubble that will shield you from outside influence. While us sinners and unbelievers and unclean people have this world, you will have given it all up for a land over the rainbow. And when you are looking at the rest of us burning in hell, I'm sure you will smile in satisfaction knowing that you were right all along.

It is we who move mountains. We shape this world. We build it to reflect our advancements as a human race. And if God will come and destroy all our hard work, at least we can say we tried. We will look at him with contempt and question why he made us so great a species living in a tidepool if he never intended for us to go out and explore the ocean.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, i know that, but consider this scripture.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[c]

The context of the passage is that Paul is warning the Corinthians to free themselves from the Idolatrous practices of the people around them. There were those in the church who were still mixing socially with the pagans, having meals in the pagan temples, and some were using the services of the pagan temple prostitutes. This is why Paul spoke to them in 1 Corinthians about a man being one flesh with a prostitute and for that reason to keep right away from that sort of activity.

There is quite a difference between mixing socially and having relationships with unbelievers, and coming on a forum discussing and debating issues to do with faith verses athiesm. To point you to a verse in the same book: 2 Corinthians 5:11 says that we try to persuade men about the plain truth of the gospel. This is an aspect of that when we have discussions with athiests about our faith.

What puts unbelievers and athiests off having discussion with many Christians is that the Christians lay down the law, and that is a discussion killer. Once someone lays down the law to another, any hope of discussion goes down like a lead zeppelin. As soon as someone says, "I'm right and you're wrong" the debate is over. Discussion is finished. Then the other person goes on the defensive and we end up with an irresistible force meeting a solid object. This results in a stalemate where no one wins.

There are always reasons why a person is an athiest or a Christian believer. When both sides listen to each other instead of talking at or past each other, fruitful debate and discussion results. That's what these forums are set up for.

I guess this comes from my background of having a father and brother who are passionate debaters, and who did not share my Christian faith. Having long and passionate debates with them (and I still have them from time to time with my brother) sharpens my perspective; and I have to admit at times that they were right. My father used to prod us until we started yelling at him and then he would tell us that we lost the debate because we raised our voices at him. He was a cunning debater who knew how to tie us up in knots. You had to be good to outwit him! He passed away in 1982, and I miss him. My brother does not have the same depth of wit, but I love discussing issues with him. The most I have got out of him is the comment that I have been a Christian for over 40 years and so there must be something in it that I have not changed my tune over all that time. But that is as far as he is prepared to go.

Even though my brother is an unbeliever, he is still my brother and I would never consider cutting my ties with him. This is the fault of some cults who take the unequal yoke to a ridiculous degree, causing alienation from parents, children, and siblings for the sake of religion. Exclusive Brethren, Moonies, and some ultra-Pentecostal cults do that, and they bring the Christian church into disrepute and put many more people off the Christian faith than attract to it.

 

[erealmz]

Even though my brother is an unbeliever, he is still my brother and I would never consider cutting my ties with him. This is the fault of some cults who take the unequal yoke to a ridiculous degree, causing alienation from parents, children, and siblings for the sake of religion. Exclusive Brethren, Moonies, and some ultra-Pentecostal cults do that, and they bring the Christian church into disrepute and put many more people off the Christian faith tha

Also consider 1 Corinthians 7:14 as it ties in to the context of what it considered "unclean" in a house of spiritual diversity.

 

[W2L]

The context of the passage is that Paul is warning the Corinthians to free themselves from the Idolatrous practices of the people around them. There were those in the church who were still mixing socially with the pagans, having meals in the pagan temples, and some were using the services of the pagan temple prostitutes. This is why Paul spoke to them in 1 Corinthians about a man being one flesh with a prostitute and for that reason to keep right away from that sort of activity.

There is quite a difference between mixing socially and having relationships with unbelievers, and coming on a forum discussing and debating issues to do with faith verses athiesm. To point you to a verse in the same book: 2 Corinthians 5:11 says that we try to persuade men about the plain truth of the gospel. This is an aspect of that when we have discussions with athiests about our faith.

What puts unbelievers and athiests off having discussion with many Christians is that the Christians lay down the law, and that is a discussion killer. Once someone lays down the law to another, any hope of discussion goes down like a lead zeppelin. As soon as someone says, "I'm right and you're wrong" the debate is over. Discussion is finished. Then the other person goes on the defensive and we end up with an irresistible force meeting a solid object. This results in a stalemate where no one wins.

There are always reasons why a person is an athiest or a Christian believer. When both sides listen to each other instead of talking at or past each other, fruitful debate and discussion results. That's what these forums are set up for.

I guess this comes from my background of having a father and brother who are passionate debaters, and who did not share my Christian faith. Having long and passionate debates with them (and I still have them from time to time with my brother) sharpens my perspective; and I have to admit at times that they were right. My father used to prod us until we started yelling at him and then he would tell us that we lost the debate because we raised our voices at him. He was a cunning debater who knew how to tie us up in knots. You had to be good to outwit him! He passed away in 1982, and I miss him. My brother does not have the same depth of wit, but I love discussing issues with him. The most I have got out of him is the comment that I have been a Christian for over 40 years and so there must be something in it that I have not changed my tune over all that time. But that is as far as he is prepared to go.

Even though my brother is an unbeliever, he is still my brother and I would never consider cutting my ties with him. This is the fault of some cults who take the unequal yoke to a ridiculous degree, causing alienation from parents, children, and siblings for the sake of religion. Exclusive Brethren, Moonies, and some ultra-Pentecostal cults do that, and they bring the Christian church into disrepute and put many more people off the Christian faith than attract to it.

The part of that scripture that i would refer you to is the part where Paul says that there is no agreement between believers and unbelievers, and light or darkness. You can either see it as a command or a proverb of wisdom, but you cannot ignore the scripture. Why would we debate people who have no agreement with?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And how much touch do you give to that that is unclean? Those thoughts you have.... About certain things. Do you entertain them? Or do you swiftly rebuke them with great success? And how long will this battle go on? When will you find peace from such wicked temptations? When you die? Was it really worth doing battle your whole life only to find out that it was in vein?

Sure you could shut the door and close all the curtains. Let in only the saints. Create a mental bubble that will shield you from outside influence. While us sinners and unbelievers and unclean people have this world, you will have given it all up for a land over the rainbow. And when you are looking at the rest of us burning in hell, I'm sure you will smile in satisfaction knowing that you were right all along.

It is we who move mountains. We shape this world. We build it to reflect our advancements as a human race. And if God will come and destroy all our hard work, at least we can say we tried. We will look at him with contempt and question why he made us so great a species living in a tidepool if he never intended for us to go out and explore the ocean.

You make some good points and it shows how off putting it is to ordinary people when religious people show their exclusive attitudes and say they are right when everyone else is wrong. When I read through the gospels, I don't see Jesus Christ having that attitude. It was Paul the apostle who said, "Even while we were yet sinners, Jesus loved us and gave Himself for us." This does not show an exclusive attitude toward those who do not have Christian faith. But more a desire to have all people, no matter who they are, included in the invitation to get to know God a little better. The commission that Jesus gave to His disciples was to "go into all the world and make disciples of every person." What this means is for Christians to share their testimony and faith with every person they meet and not be ashamed of being Christian, and to do their best to persuade others that being Christian is the better way of life. There is no mention of having to force people to accept the message through fear of hell. In my opinion, using fear to force people in will not make lasting disciples for Christ. Also, forming exclusive Christian "clubs" (as many church groups are) would not achieve results either.

I think the best way is to say, "Here is the message if you are prepared to listen, and it is your choice whether you take it or leave it." I don't think that Christianity should be sold like insurance or Amway or by any form of "ambush" marketing. I usually do all I can to avoid such people, and I can fully understand athiests and unbelievers doing the same when they see Christians behaving the same way.

 

[W2L]

And how much touch do you give to that that is unclean? Those thoughts you have.... About certain things. Do you entertain them? Or do you swiftly rebuke them with great success? And how long will this battle go on? When will you find peace from such wicked temptations? When you die? Was it really worth doing battle your whole life only to find out that it was in vein?

Sure you could shut the door and close all the curtains. Let in only the saints. Create a mental bubble that will shield you from outside influence. While us sinners and unbelievers and unclean people have this world, you will have given it all up for a land over the rainbow. And when you are looking at the rest of us burning in hell, I'm sure you will smile in satisfaction knowing that you were right all along.

It is we who move mountains. We shape this world. We build it to reflect our advancements as a human race. And if God will come and destroy all our hard work, at least we can say we tried. We will look at him with contempt and question why he made us so great a species living in a tidepool if he never intended for us to go out and explore the ocean.

I believe its wise to follow Paul's wisdom. Your Post is a strawman, i never said we should live in bunkers or bubbles.

 

[mark kennedy]

I've seen what happens when atheists, agnostics and humanists are allowed to post in Christians only. Christians typically refrain from divisive and contentious running debates and then the skeptics start to dominate the conversation. Then Christians who are doing little more then passing time and shooting the breeze are drowned out. The 777 debacle resulted in moderators resigning because they felt like Christians were being set up like ducks in a shooting gallery.

If an unbeliever wants to talk to Christians, that's what the common forums are for.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The part of that scripture that i would refer you to is the part where Paul says that there is no agreement between believers and unbelievers, and light or darkness. You can either see it as a command or a proverb of wisdom, but you cannot ignore the scripture. Why would we debate people who have no agreement with?

So how do you relate that to going into all the world and making disciples of all men, and how would you show the love of Christ to unbelievers by sharing the gospel with them? Also, if you decide that it is no point even discussing issues with unbelievers, how can you know who among unbelievers may be more open to receiving the Gospel than you can ascertain by outward appearances?

 

[erealmz]

I believe its wise to follow Paul's wisdom. Your Post is a strawman, i never said we should live in bunkers or bubbles.

My post is a direct reply to your quote of scripture. "Stay away from unclean people. Have no fellowship with them". You don't have to say you live in bunkers. When the whole world is full of evil and you advise people to stay away from it, it doesn't leave much of a choice than to bunker up. Do not strawman that.

 

[Dirk1540]

The 777 debacle resulted in moderators resigning because they felt like Christians were being set up like ducks in a shooting gallery.

What was that?

 

[W2L]

My post is a direct reply to your quote of scripture. "Stay away from unclean people. Have no fellowship with them". You don't have to say you live in bunkers. When the whole world is full of evil and you advise people to stay away from it, it doesn't leave much of a choice than to bunker up. Do not strawman that.

Ok, thank you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I've seen what happens when atheists, agnostics and humanists are allowed to post in Christians only. Christians typically refrain from divisive and contentious running debates and then the skeptics start to dominate the conversation. Then Christians who are doing little more then passing time and shooting the breeze are drowned out. The 777 debacle resulted in moderators resigning because they felt like Christians were being set up like ducks in a shooting gallery.

If an unbeliever wants to talk to Christians, that's what the common forums are for.

I agree that there has to be a division for that reason. When I first joined CF, I was informed by a Pentecostal who was on CF before they had forums set up for Spirit-filled Charismatics, that every time they posted on one of the general theology forums, they were nastily trolled by anti-Pentecostals and that many good people quitted CF over it. It was only when a Charismatic-only forum was set up that the trolling stopped and those who did not understand Charismatic issues were made to discuss things more reasonably.

But I think that having forums where athiests and Christians can debate issues is a good thing for those who want that. And those Christians who want to be able to fellowship with other believers and be insulated from trolling or unnecessary debates.

It's almost like men feeling that they are being discriminated against because they can't use women's toilets. And I am sure that if a Christian went into a social gathering of athiests, he would be ejected pretty quickly if he started promoting his views without invitation; and the same if an athiest went into a church service and did the same. There is no discrimination there. It is just a matter of what is and is not appropriate in different environments. Why should it be any different in CF?

 

[mark kennedy]

What was that?

In 2007 the owner of the boards unilaterally decided to allow any member to post in any forum, effectively eliminating Christians only. It didn't last and Christians were leaving CF because they couldn't post without being gang tackled by skeptics. It was never a bunker mentality but rather a respect for the sensibilities of Christians who aren't interested in fielding the contentious spirit of skeptics. When the moderators started resigning over it the original policy was reinstated.

 

[W2L]

So how do you relate that to going into all the world and making disciples of all men, and how would you show the love of Christ to unbelievers by sharing the gospel with them? Also, if you decide that it is no point even discussing issues with unbelievers, how can you know who among unbelievers may be more open to receiving the Gospel than you can ascertain by outward appearances?

Of course, i never said preaching the word was wrong. I would agree with you if it were not for political debates. They are not about preaching the kingdom. They are about an earthly nation rather than the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Dirk1540]

In 2007 the owner of the boards unilaterally decided to allow any member to post in any forum, effectively eliminating Christians only. It didn't last and Christians were leaving CF because they couldn't post without being gang tackled by skeptics. It was never a bunker mentality but rather a respect for the sensibilities of Christians who aren't interested in fielding the contentious spirit of skeptics. When the moderators started resigning over it the original policy was reinstated.

Oh ok thanks. I wouldn't even have had to do the experiment to know that exact result would take place. The sections are night & day. Look at this thread, it literally answers it's own question!! 2 completely different animals.

 

[mark kennedy]

I agree that there has to be a division for that reason. When I first joined CF, I was informed by a Pentecostal who was on CF before they had forums set up for Spirit-filled Charismatics, that every time they posted on one of the general theology forums, they were nastily trolled by anti-Pentecostals and that many good people quitted CF over it. It was only when a Charismatic-only forum was set up that the trolling stopped and those who did not understand Charismatic issues were made to discuss things more reasonably.

But I think that having forums where athiests and Christians can debate issues is a good thing for those who want that. And those Christians who want to be able to fellowship with other believers and be insulated from trolling or unnecessary debates.

It's almost like men feeling that they are being discriminated against because they can't use women's toilets. And I am sure that if a Christian went into a social gathering of athiests, he would be ejected pretty quickly if he started promoting his views without invitation; and the same if an athiest went into a church service and did the same. There is no discrimination there. It is just a matter of what is and is not appropriate in different environments. Why should it be any different in CF?

That's actually a pretty good example, I've noticed over the years Pentecostals have very little interest in debate. I was in an Assemblies of God Church for about a year and we covered the subject of tongues in a matter of minutes. They are not much for theology either, even though they have a Wesleyan tradition at the core of their beliefs. In that particular persuasion the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are inextricably linked to bearing the fruit of the Spirit. It's a way of thinking and a way of life that is not conducive to a divisive and contentious spirit.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Oh ok thanks. I wouldn't even have had to do the experiment to know that exact result would take place. The sections are night & day. Look at this thread, it literally answers it's own question!! 2 completely different animals.

It's fairly typical, I've spent an awful lot of time on Creation and Evolution and rarely do you get a civil exchange. Now that's not to say that a friendly exchange is impossible but it's hardly friendly to impose debate on those who would rather not.