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Christian hate & insanity

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Curious Atheist, Apr 11, 2012.

  1. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Yes, we are all born atheists. Yes, He forgives.
     
  2. Curious Atheist

    Curious Atheist Newbie

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    Then what is the point of Christianity or following the Bible if you are forgiven anyway?
    Another similar question is, if you never heard of Christianity so it is not your fault, are you still forgiven. So I assume the answer is yes too, so would it then not be logical for no-one to be a Christian or ever spread the word so everyone is guaranteed to go to heaven?
     
  3. kimmyh51

    kimmyh51 &quot ;liv i ng proof that god

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    While I can only speak from my own experience and point of view, I feel that the biggest, most successful weapon Satan employs is not stuff like drugs, sex, etc, but what my church call "legalism' and similar ideas that so many churches seem to (sadly) promote as truth

    Ive heard many people say in some churches you are made to feel that you need to meet all sorts of criteria to be 'good enough' to be a real christian, or be saved, or simply join that church.

    This is not God, this is the people in that church. I personally feel that many of those ideas go 100% against what God is about - the whole point to jesus dying on the cross is that we have a free gift of salvation - we dont have to feel guilty, or dirty. And we do not have to 'earn' that salvation by following rituals, or being suddenly this perfectly sinless (and probably anal and boring) person. If we were meant to do that - or even capable, there would be no need for Jesus to take all of our sins on his shoulders for us. He did that specifically so that we did not have to spend our lives feeling guilty or flogging ourselves to meet some expectation of a church etc.

    I believe the very moment any person says 'I want to accept jesus as my saviour, God please forgive my sins and come into my life as my God now' (or something similar that they are saved. The changes that I have seen in myself and others do not come at all from any sort of guilt or feeling I need to do something to measure up. If anything at times I have been telling myself I am a crappy attempt at a christian etc etc - and when I ask God how to fix that or for help - the only messsage i would get popping out in my bible, things ppl said, stuff i watched on tv, music on the radio - everything would be that God loved me and that i was saved and would live with God in heaven. Id look at it and go why isnt God answering me - till finally i realised he was.
    Anyway - when you realise that God is really going to love you no matter what you do, and that you dont have to earn that - then you want to do what he wants b e the person he wants - and you find that when he has a plan for you that is not what you planned or expected - that it always works out by far the best for you (in a richer fuller way than you can imagine) - then after a while you start to realise that if you trust him to run things - you will always end up making the best decisions - taking the best options, getting the best result etc.
    But that comes directly from God to you - not from anyone else. And while my experience is that the moment you become a christian, God is suddenly there and real in a way he is not ever at all prior to this - I also do think if you are are geniunely wanting to know - what is the real truth of it all? And as part of that ask " the christian God' to reveal himself to you - maybe say that if he is real and is God, that you would totally follow him (i mean if you had undeniable proof you would unless totally stupid, yes?) but that at the moment you just dont feel you believe that - or that you ever can, or that specific things about the bible etc you just totally disagree with or feel are wrong - then ask him to show you if he is real - or to show you what the story is really with any preconceptions you have about him or bible events (ie to show you why they happened that way - or if you have misunderstood the meaning that God reveals to you what it does mean

    To me, if you do the above - it is just something you can put to God - in your head you don't need to say a word out loud (or you can - totally up to you - I still yell at God and argue with him - I told him I was most thoroughly unimpressed with his way of doing things just 4 days ago (his way has proven correct as it always does lol - but that didnt stop me debating it then, and unfortunately probably wont in future either. In some ways I think its to be expected - I want to have a close relationship - and the closer it gets the more likely I am to disagree with him :)

    If you want to explore the concept of other Gods as well - then tell him that - and tell him why - challenge him to prove otherwise - just say whatever you are thinking and whatever questions you want to ask, dont hold back. Hes God, not a little fragile flower, and to be God surely he can handle the tough questions so ask them/

    If he is real as i claim, he knows everything you think anyway - so why not just ask him? You took the time to post here more than once, why ask God himself, rather than try and sift through the interpretations of me and others? Worst case scenario you ask and don't get a reply and you are no worse off than you are now, best case you get a reply and then you will know what is real and what is not - from your own experience rather than relying on someone elses claims...

    of btw if you decide to ask him to reveal himself to you - it took about 2 years after I asked that several times, before he did to me. (of course the many many offensive four letter words i called him in that time may not have helped my case lol)

    Oh on the gay christians thing - (I have gay (non chrstian as far as i am aware) friends - and while my church is not one that says it is biblically not a sin to be gay, if a gay person went to my church they would be treated the same as anyone else (actually i have no idea how anyone would know they were gay as it wouldnt ever be asked and i have not heard a single serman in over a year on that topic and dont expect to. I did ask a couple of long term members about this - My dilema being not how to treat gay people - to me thats obvious with respect and love - as anyone - but how to view their relationship - as in my observations one couple i am thinking of - they demonstrate a very real and geniune love for each other. While I can read the bible is pretty clear on same sex relationships - I also in my gut dont feel that God disapproves of the real love those 2 guys have for each other - emotionally anyway. And what I did read in a book (seriuosly funny - great comedy) was the authors opinion that even if it is a sin - so is looking lustfully at your neighbour, lying, selfishness and a whole pile of other things that we all do all the time, There is no comparison rating saying it is any worse or better to be gay than to lie or steal etc. In my own personal experience with God he would look on even a small lie - if deliberate and for deceitful, or other wrong reasons - as being way worse than the love between two men (or women) being expressed physically).

    I also have to say that personally - I dont believe in that whole cure you of being gay thing - i have never known anyone involved with that at all so have no factual eveidence to feel that way - I just do :)

    And finally
    on the bored kids thing - maybe a new churches is needed if that is the case

    i took my two nieces (1 and a half and 4 both pretty strong willed precocious little girls) to church with me a few weeks back - much to the amusement of my sister and brother in law who assured me i wouldnt last 5 mins, and that i would have to leave early as they would not stay in the kids program at a church they didnt know for the hour - 90 mins it was on

    as it turned out I had to almost forcibly remove one niece from the kids group - she informed me when I went to get them (her sister was also happily playing and in no hurry to leave) that she 'wasnt finished yet' and even when I told her several times we needed to leave to go to macdonalds (a treat for them - their mum doesn't make a habit of mackers) she was not keen to leave.

    I think all the thinks you mention are totally valid - but are a reflection of the failings of the church involved not of God. And again -for anyone in that situation I suggest you put that to God, find me a decent church. and he will. He did for me (I said find me a church - 2 days later i was treasure hunted

    if you or anyone you know is at a church doing any of the things you mention - or making them feel bad like that - then what they need to do is find a new church - not a new God :) The church I go to does not do anything like that and if they started i would leave and feel 100% not guilty for leaving. I do know people who are involved in churches who possibly do behave that way - and while I think the friends are genuine and mean the best - that the values their church is preaching are totally wrong.

    As I said I personally feel that its Satan most effective weapon

    Any dramatic denial of God or anything else that draws attention to God - that might make people stop and wonder, or even start to look into it

    However if you put out there a message that God is dreary, depressing, full of crap rules and guild trips, boring and will waste your time and put you in a bad mood - thats a very effective way of ensuring no one takes the time to check out God any further (we only google interesting things)
     
  4. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Re; the first question, He forgives those who wish to be forgiven, through His Son, Jesus Christ. The point of Christianity and reading the Bible, is because a regenerated heart and mind long for His Word (the Bible) like manna (spiritual Bread) it feeds us and nurtures us. And as it is written in Proverbs, we are blessed with wisdom and understanding through the Holy Spirit, as we read it and absorb it. and the following is in following Jesus Christ, and growing in our love for Him, and our Father. We long to see His face and see and hear Him rejoicing over us with singing, as it is written in the Bible.

    Jesus tells us:

    "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." ~John 14:6

    No one can come to the Father but by Jesus.

    My father died of smoke inhalation in a room that was on fire. Although he rejected God's grace and lived as a raging alcoholic, i believe that God's grace superseded the state of my father. I believe that through God's inexplicable grace, he cried out at the last minute and that God pulled him out of destruction. i also believe that god can supersede whole family lines meant for destruction, and through His grace, can raise beauty from ashes. my great grandfather i am told was a Godly man. i suspect he prayed for the generations after him, and i believe that God honored his prayers and that is why i am a believer now, along with other members of my family.

    God's inexplicable grace is not able to be explained, for it works in mysterious ways. it will continue calling hearts and minds to Him via His Son. it is also written that the heavens declare the glory of God, and that his handiwork is seen.
     
  5. Curious Atheist

    Curious Atheist Newbie

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    I can only deduce that you are implying that Satan has influenced what is written in the Bible. I have never heard this before, but if following the Bible to the word leads to the opposite of God then surely that is what you mean? How do you then determine if something is divinely inspired or a trick, perhaps a very, very, clever trick by the bearded chap downstairs? Or if you just mean they are forgetting Jesus died for our sins, then why is there still a list of sins and rules to be followed? If you can literally do anything you want and still be forgiven then what is the point of heaven and hell at all? Surely everyone will go to heaven? In that case, if you believe in a devil that can influence your life then what makes you think it isn’t satan sending you these cryptic messages, some or all of the time which is all leading towards something terrible? I don’t really expect you to answer some of these questions, but it is what I would be thinking in my more paranoid moments if I really believed what you say. Really it just comes down to you believing what you want to believe, as there are terrible things in the Bible that you ignore and you rationalise your own version of what God should be and believe it. You have also rationalise what is right and wrong for yourself too and haven’t just taken the Bible’s word for it, which is the point I was making originally about atheist’s being immoral, which is utterly false when you see that religious people use exactly the same morals to deduce what parts of the book to ignore.



    So you have to ask to be forgiven? But anyway, I can’t accept what you say about God lending a helping hand because it clearly isn’t true for the majority of people. There are many devout Christians in Africa who never even get half a chance to live like an identical person who was lucky enough to be born elsewhere. There are infinite examples of good people being completely screwed over, which you can rationalise is part of God’s plan but it doesn’t really make sense if you say God lets you get the best results etc. Nor does it explain why so many bad people live the life of their dreams, which you might say will be punished after death but it certainly doesn’t make sense if God is how you describe. If you only look for the evidence that supports your idea, you will obviously never see the full picture. Or maybe I am just bitter because I don’t think God likes me very much if he is there, or maybe everyone who isn’t getting these advantages from God, or isn’t receiving the hard proof of his existence are just missing the tiny signs, but it seems far more likely we are in control of our own decisions and some things happen without it being linked to our destiny in some obscure way.


    If God proved he existed to anyone who asked them there would be only one religion and no such thing as faith. From discussion with other Christians, God never reveals himself so you have the free will to not be convinced he is there by the Bible…so your beliefs raise a lot of questions such as this.
    However in reply to the part in bold, I am not sure I would want to worship the God of the Bible. There are too many examples of him being a complete…profanity. I suppose if we knew of a creator it would be like having a parent, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything a parent does nor respect them if they are cruel and immoral. If my real father for example told me women for to obey their husbands, slavery is hunky dory, it is acceptable to test someone’s love by asking them to kill their children, that the first three things on my list of things to do revolve around worshipping him and no other, that mass genocide is OK as long as you are the father to them all, that killing first-borns is an acceptable punishment for disobedience etc etc etc I don’t think I could respect him anymore. There really are far too many questionable actions by the biblical God that I couldn’t honestly love him as the supreme moral creature he is unduly depicted as. Maybe I would follow out of fear of hell like many, but I hope I have a bigger pair than that.


    I have asked, and if he knows my thoughts then he knows I would want proof he is there, of course I would. If he could explain that the Bible is wrong and not what he is about at all, then fair do’s I would be converted 100% to his cause if that is what he wanted. But it hasn’t happened, if I ask a question I have only my own thoughts in reply that I do not choose to decide are Gods words. If I asked him to turn my bath water red, it would not happen. But if I asked a vaguer request like just a sign of any kind, I could see that sign anywhere. That is why I mentioned mediums and psychics, they make vague comments and believers make it fit. I could say to you that God spoke to me about your granddad, who tells me he loves you…also something coming through that his back doesn’t bother him anymore and he feels young again. Anyone who wants to hear those words would be inclined to believe them, so people do in their masses. Does it not bother you that all supernatural beliefs revolve around the idea of hearing good news you desperately want to hear? All of them. It is all about believing there is purpose to everything, bad things happen for a reason and death isn’t the end etc. Would you as readily believe we were created by Satan, for the pure purpose of being the puppeteer to a sick game and we are destined to suffer eternally? I doubt it, that wouldn’t be what you would want to hear at all.


    Why would the Bible mention that it is a sin then? I thought God wanted us to love each other, but has put a restriction on whom you can love? Although I totally agree that it is bizarre people make up their own scale of sins, since we can only get our morals from the Bible in some people’s opinions. I raised the point in a thread a while ago that gluttony is a sin, 90% of Americans are Christian yet around 60% are overweight and 30% obese (or more now, it is constantly increasing) so why isn’t gluttony as condemned as other apparent sins. But people rationalise it away with ‘God forgives this’ but apparently doesn’t forgive the sins they find easier to avoid. People will just believe what they want to believe if it fits with what they want.
     
  6. Curious Atheist

    Curious Atheist Newbie

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    The church does spend a lot of money trying to get more kids involved, it is openly admitted that they try to indoctrinate kids as young as possible. I disapprove of kids being told what they should believe, I don’t see how calling someone a ‘Christian chid’ is any different to a ‘republican child’ ‘vegan child’ or ‘lawyer child’. They might very well want to be a Christians, republican lawyer eating cucumber sandwiches (with no butter!) but they should be given the choice at a later age. Because as you know, children are hardwire to believe anything they are told and cannot distinguish what is false, hence Santa claus, the tooth fairy etc which they will believe until an authority figure tells them otherwise. Religion is no different and you can plainly see that people aren’t accepting God, they are being told what to believe as children. Why else would Jewish parents have jewish kids, Muslims with Muslim kids and so on. The whole thing seems wrongs to me and a bit of an insult to God if he wants true love and faith.
     
  7. Jonathan95

    Jonathan95 Veteran

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    True born-again Christians wont believe if it fits with what they want.

    They have to repent of the gluttony.
     
  8. Jonathan95

    Jonathan95 Veteran

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    Religious people? True born-again followers of Jesus aren't religious, they have a relationship with him.

    Children finding church boring? I found Church kinda boring too when I wasn't really a Christian, because I didn't understand anything. But when I got baptized in THe Holy spirit, and got born again, I understood, and felt hunger for the Word.

    Also, there is Sunday-school. Teaching for children, in some churches.

    Well, Homosexuality is a Sin, and the sexual act of it is an abomination. They won't enter the gates of heaven if they live like that.



    Evolution is brainwash and false. There's no evidence for it, and evolution doesn't make sense. God exists, so evolution is false.
     
  9. Curious Atheist

    Curious Atheist Newbie

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    Thanks for your replies, but I cannot answer much of it without repeating myself from earlier in this thread.

    But I can't help commenting on the brainwashing part, when has anyone been sat down and force-fed information about evolution? That is what churches were built for. There are two glaringly obvious problems with what you say next, firstly you are very wrong that there is no evidence. I am assuming you have no interest in learning though, you only need the Bible. However if you would be so inclined to Google a bit, please get back to me with your far more convincing compilation of evidence for the Bible being true. I have no problem with you being confident that I am wrong, but just making statements like 'God exists, so evolution is false' is a ridiculous way to go about a debate. That statement is moronic for so many reasons, the least of which that many of your fellow Christians will tell you that God could have guided the path of evolution over hundreds of millions of years, in an extremely inefficient and roundabout way of creating humans. But I would agree, that would be ridiculous.
     
  10. jpcedotal

    jpcedotal Old School from the Backwoods - Christian Style

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    Once saved, it isn't about the individual anymore, it is about everyone else...Christian and non-Christian alike. Our focus changes and everything we could ever need is provided by simply spreading the Gospel both by our actions (sacrificing for others) and our words (personal testimonies).

    That is why it is so hard to spread the Gospel via the internet. All it is...is talk and discussion. If we were face to face or worked side by side, I can show you how Christ changed my life and how even during hard times, I have a peace that non-Christians just do not possess. One can SEE my witness, not just hear me tell about it.

    God is good...
     
  11. Sojourner1

    Sojourner1 CF Advisory Team, Policy Manager Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Mod Hat On​

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    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  12. Trogool

    Trogool Well-Known Member

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    "true born-again followers of Jesus" don't have a shared set of beliefs about the nature of the universe and their purpose?

    Um, that's incorrect.

    Adaptive Evolution of Class 5 Fimbrial Genes in Enterotoxigenic Escherichia coli and Its Functional Consequences

    In silico design and adaptive evolution of Escherichia coli for production of lactic acid - Fong - 2005 - Biotechnology and Bioengineering - Wiley Online Library

    http://jb.asm.org/content/193/2/429.short

    Evolution of antimicrobial resistance in enteroaggregative Escherichia coli and enterotoxigenic Escherichia coli causing traveller's diarrhoea
     
  13. kimmyh51

    kimmyh51 &quot ;liv i ng proof that god

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    No not at all - apologies if I implied that unintentionally. I believe in the bible being the word of god (as given to the various people who wrote the various parts of it). I believe those people wrote about the things they saw and experienced and felt, in their own words - and perhaps with their own personal bias (as we all do) but i do not believe that any part of the bible has been inspired by anyone other than god.

    I think that the bible is written in a way that allows every individual person to get meaning from it for them specifically. And I wonder if maybe god has allowed it to happen that way for a couple of reasons:

    1: He loves us all as we are and rejoices in the uniqueness of us all - including that of those who wrote the books of the bible
    2: He - knowing us all - knows that for example you may read a passage in the bible, and in that passage see something that just really for you - is meaningful in terms of being the god you want to know and worship, or it may be that you read a passage and out of it, you find certain words and influences are particularly relevant to your own life, or your own ideas about god, love etc. And as you are reading those words you may think "o m g"(excuse the pun) the way thats written is just so - like someone read my mind. And then you find someone else got a totally different message or answer from that same passage. And maybe neither of you is right or wrong - maybe you are both just reading the passage and gathering from it, the meaning that god placed into it especially for you.

    Clearly there are a lot of passages in the bible - that you could look at and say 'this totally conflicts another verse'or how can a loving god say/command this. One thing I am also learning is that you need to look at the culture, and people and time the words were written, as often if you do that what the words say, if you heard them spoken at the time and place in history the writer was in, would have a very different meaning to what they might have if you interpreted them literally based on modern times.

    Anyway - at the end of the day - Im not an expert - and even those who are experts may miss something that has meaning for you - simply for that reason - its there for YOU - and no one else

    if you arent sure - ask god - or if you dont believe in god - DARE him, to prove/show it to you....

    Also if you read something and it seems meaningful or relevant but you are not sure and are thinking óh i just want to think that' then ask god to give you more signs if the meaning you got personally from something - was what he was intending you to understand.

    at the end of the day, no matter what i say or anyone else says - every single person here has the ability to ask god directly themselves - any question they like. I am confident that anyone who does that - with a geniune and honest desire to know (even if you are genuinely and honestly saying you dont believe in god - but are open to being proven wrong) - will receive an answer.

    it may not be immediately - took me about 2-3 years of earnest asking, and numerous years before that of occasional 'god are you there' asked at random every so often (not very often)


    As for the bible being used to mislead people there are definate references in the bible about this ie rev 22:19. And it can be hard to know who's opinion you should trust - as everyone has an agenda (including us christians - we wanna save ya lol).

    Which is why - when in doubt - ask god - dont rely on anything you are told - incuding by me if you arent sure - ask god to confirm it for you - or to lead you to the answer or person who has the answer you seek.

    Seek and you shall find :) Just ask...:)
     
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