Christian hate & insanity

[Curious Atheist]

Hello. I have been away for a while after all of my questions had been answered, but I have been prompted again recently. I keep coming across a lot of what I can only describe as hatred from many Christians, which to me seems incompatible with what I would imagine Jesus would preach.

Some of the main areas are:

1. The main topics that generally revolve around women, have a strong mysgyonistic attitude towards rape and the rights of rape victims.

"'it must have been God's will for her to be raped' and recommended that she attend church more frequently."" Quoted from a chaplain

2. Homosexuals seem to be classed as sub-human, immoral monsters that choose to be gay. If I remember correctly, the subject is actually forbidden on this forum, are you ashamed of what God wants? Can we please discuss this in a civil way?

"Say what you will but homosexuals are not even human. They are diseased, degenerate creatures who mock humans. The goal that they will freely admit to is to erase any trace of decency or humanity from the planet until we are all wallowing in filth and disease like them. If you are religous at all you recognize that this is the work of satan and that they have no souls, just lust for each other"

3. Atheists being thought of as having no morals is also a common theme

"Could atheists talk themselves into anything? The methodical erosion of ones values and morals can be so damaging, to the point that it's acceptable that"Atheists eat babies."

An atheist may still be moral and say murder and rape are wrong: but when asked why, they will not have a final reason or authority to which they can appeal."



Now to the insanity, how do you know if a Christian has crossed the line and are infact, crazy? If someone started speaking to me about demons I would question if they were playing with a full deck...

"Leviathon is a spirit I have battled as well. It was a hard battle but was won. It was about four months or more ago. My wife and I were in McDonalds and were having a conversation with an angel and Leviathon had come up. I told the angel that i wanted to fight this demon and he said I could. On the way back to the hotel I asked the angel if he could bring the demon to a predestinated place and he said yes. I figured that since Leviathon was from the depths of the sea he would be used to the cold water so I filled the tub up with scalding hot water and blessed the water. The angels (there were two now) brought Leviathon bound to the tub and fought with me. We all pulled our swords from our hips and began running this demon through with all my strength and everything I had. I would say it took atleast half an hour or more. We were all spent but the battle was won."


My question is how can anyone be so hateful and still proclaim to be a loving Christian? Why are 'heathens' hated and not loved with conversion attempted? Why do you care if one man is a homosexual, why can't they just be left to do what they want and why can't God handle this on his own? Why is it only Christians (or Muslims) that state that homosexuality is a choice, whilst everyone else agrees that it is not? I could not choose to find a man attractive, it repulses me the same way it repulses a homosexual to imagine being with a woman. It seems they are hated for being 'unnatural' whilst your entire religion worships those that prove to be as unnatural as possible ie supernatural!

I mean no offence to any individual, but I am sick of people like the Pope preaching hatred, it does nothing to help the world.

 

[elman]

Hello. I have been away for a while after all of my questions had been answered, but I have been prompted again recently. I keep coming across a lot of what I can only describe as hatred from many Christians, which to me seems incompatible with what I would imagine Jesus would preach.

Some of the main areas are:

1. The main topics that generally revolve around women, have a strong mysgyonistic attitude towards rape and the rights of rape victims.

"'it must have been God's will for her to be raped' and recommended that she attend church more frequently."" Quoted from a chaplain

2. Homosexuals seem to be classed as sub-human, immoral monsters that choose to be gay. If I remember correctly, the subject is actually forbidden on this forum, are you ashamed of what God wants? Can we please discuss this in a civil way?

"Say what you will but homosexuals are not even human. They are diseased, degenerate creatures who mock humans. The goal that they will freely admit to is to erase any trace of decency or humanity from the planet until we are all wallowing in filth and disease like them. If you are religous at all you recognize that this is the work of satan and that they have no souls, just lust for each other"

3. Atheists being thought of as having no morals is also a common theme

"Could atheists talk themselves into anything? The methodical erosion of ones values and morals can be so damaging, to the point that it's acceptable that"Atheists eat babies."

An atheist may still be moral and say murder and rape are wrong: but when asked why, they will not have a final reason or authority to which they can appeal."



Now to the insanity, how do you know if a Christian has crossed the line and are infact, crazy? If someone started speaking to me about demons I would question if they were playing with a full deck...

"Leviathon is a spirit I have battled as well. It was a hard battle but was won. It was about four months or more ago. My wife and I were in McDonalds and were having a conversation with an angel and Leviathon had come up. I told the angel that i wanted to fight this demon and he said I could. On the way back to the hotel I asked the angel if he could bring the demon to a predestinated place and he said yes. I figured that since Leviathon was from the depths of the sea he would be used to the cold water so I filled the tub up with scalding hot water and blessed the water. The angels (there were two now) brought Leviathon bound to the tub and fought with me. We all pulled our swords from our hips and began running this demon through with all my strength and everything I had. I would say it took atleast half an hour or more. We were all spent but the battle was won."


My question is how can anyone be so hateful and still proclaim to be a loving Christian? Why are 'heathens' hated and not loved with conversion attempted? Why do you care if one man is a homosexual, why can't they just be left to do what they want and why can't God handle this on his own? Why is it only Christians (or Muslims) that state that homosexuality is a choice, whilst everyone else agrees that it is not? I could not choose to find a man attractive, it repulses me the same way it repulses a homosexual to imagine being with a woman. It seems they are hated for being 'unnatural' whilst your entire religion worships those that prove to be as unnatural as possible ie supernatural!

I mean no offence to any individual, but I am sick of people like the Pope preaching hatred, it does nothing to help the world.

I agree. You do not have to be atheist to agree with this.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hello. I have been away for a while after all of my questions had been answered, but I have been prompted again recently. I keep coming across a lot of what I can only describe as hatred from many Christians, which to me seems incompatible with what I would imagine Jesus would preach.

Some of the main areas are:

1. The main topics that generally revolve around women, have a strong mysgyonistic attitude towards rape and the rights of rape victims.

"'it must have been God's will for her to be raped' and recommended that she attend church more frequently."" Quoted from a chaplain

He was an idiot. I'm assuming this chaplain was male.

2. Homosexuals seem to be classed as sub-human, immoral monsters that choose to be gay. If I remember correctly, the subject is actually forbidden on this forum, are you ashamed of what God wants? Can we please discuss this in a civil way?

"Say what you will but homosexuals are not even human. They are diseased, degenerate creatures who mock humans. The goal that they will freely admit to is to erase any trace of decency or humanity from the planet until we are all wallowing in filth and disease like them. If you are religous at all you recognize that this is the work of satan and that they have no souls, just lust for each other"

It's forbidden, thus I'm not permitted to talk about my views here. Needless to say the above does not represent me or all Christians.

3. Atheists being thought of as having no morals is also a common theme

"Could atheists talk themselves into anything? The methodical erosion of ones values and morals can be so damaging, to the point that it's acceptable that"Atheists eat babies."

An atheist may still be moral and say murder and rape are wrong: but when asked why, they will not have a final reason or authority to which they can appeal."

Again, someone I'd probably regard as an idiot.

Now to the insanity, how do you know if a Christian has crossed the line and are infact, crazy? If someone started speaking to me about demons I would question if they were playing with a full deck...

"Leviathon is a spirit I have battled as well. It was a hard battle but was won. It was about four months or more ago. My wife and I were in McDonalds and were having a conversation with an angel and Leviathon had come up. I told the angel that i wanted to fight this demon and he said I could. On the way back to the hotel I asked the angel if he could bring the demon to a predestinated place and he said yes. I figured that since Leviathon was from the depths of the sea he would be used to the cold water so I filled the tub up with scalding hot water and blessed the water. The angels (there were two now) brought Leviathon bound to the tub and fought with me. We all pulled our swords from our hips and began running this demon through with all my strength and everything I had. I would say it took atleast half an hour or more. We were all spent but the battle was won."


My question is how can anyone be so hateful and still proclaim to be a loving Christian? Why are 'heathens' hated and not loved with conversion attempted? Why do you care if one man is a homosexual, why can't they just be left to do what they want and why can't God handle this on his own? Why is it only Christians (or Muslims) that state that homosexuality is a choice, whilst everyone else agrees that it is not? I could not choose to find a man attractive, it repulses me the same way it repulses a homosexual to imagine being with a woman. It seems they are hated for being 'unnatural' whilst your entire religion worships those that prove to be as unnatural as possible ie supernatural!

I mean no offence to any individual, but I am sick of people like the Pope preaching hatred, it does nothing to help the world.

I haven't particularly found the current Pope to be particularly hateful. But that's probably just me.

And as far as people preaching hatred and being general jerks in the name of my religion, I'm rather sick of people doing that too.

Unfortunately unpleasant people are going act unpleasant, even if they adhere to a religious tradition that, quite ironically, is centered around a Man who taught love, compassion, kindness and good will toward everyone irrespective of who or what they were.

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to twist the the best things in this world into tools of hate, war and vindictiveness.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Curious Atheist]

He was an idiot. I'm assuming this chaplain was male.



It's forbidden, thus I'm not permitted to talk about my views here. Needless to say the above does not represent me or all Christians.



Again, someone I'd probably regard as an idiot.




I haven't particularly found the current Pope to be particularly hateful. But that's probably just me.

And as far as people preaching hatred and being general jerks in the name of my religion, I'm rather sick of people doing that too.

Unfortunately unpleasant people are going act unpleasant, even if they adhere to a religious tradition that, quite ironically, is centered around a Man who taught love, compassion, kindness and good will toward everyone irrespective of who or what they were.

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to twist the the best things in this world into tools of hate, war and vindictiveness.

-CryptoLutheran

I did hope no-one would defend any of those comments, they are certainly on the extreme end of what I come across. I do not want to give the impression I am generalising all Christians in any way. However, I was under the impression you are to hate the sin not the sinner? Well firstly I disagree that being gay is a sin, I don't really care who people choose to love it isn't my business. Yet homosexuals are banished from being priests, cannot get married and are widely outcast by Christians. I think it is terrible a person is hated or merely disrespected for just being who they are, why can't they be loved like everyone else?

I should also add, I do not have any gay relations or friends and have absolutely no reason to be bias. I just find it morally incomprehensible to be racist, sexist or homophobic and hypocritical to be any of these and claim to be loving.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I agree. You do not have to be atheist to agree with this.

I am glad, but I would be very sad if only atheists would agree! Could you please quote me the parts of the Bible that refer to homosexuality or the treatment of women? Or non-believers too if you could. Because I am under the impression that being gay is to be condemned, non-beleivers to be converted or killed and women to obey their husbands. I know some is the OT that was only for the israelites, but I also thought the part about not being gay was in the OT too. I am very likely wrong, I hope I am.

 

[elman]

I am glad, but I would be very sad if only atheists would agree! Could you please quote me the parts of the Bible that refer to homosexuality or the treatment of women? Or non-believers too if you could. Because I am under the impression that being gay is to be condemned, non-beleivers to be converted or killed and women to obey their husbands. I know some is the OT that was only for the israelites, but I also thought the part about not being gay was in the OT too. I am very likely wrong, I hope I am.

There are definitly parts of the Bible, including parts of the books written by Paul that are anti gay. I believe the Bible is the greatest book ever written by man and has a great deal of divine truth and wisdom in it, more than any other book I have found, and I have looked. However I do not believe the Bible is free of mistakes and this is simply one of the mistakes, when it tells us to treat women and others as inferior and defective for being born as they are. I see divine truth and wisdom in Ezekieol 18 where we are told we are not responsible for any sin but our own. I also see it in Acts 10:34-35 where it says God does not play favorites but will accept men and women from all nations that "fear him and do what is right"--fear in this context meaning show respect I think. Jesus clearlly taught that all things are summed up in loving God and man and that we love God by loving man--Matt 25:31 and following.

 

[ziggy29]

There are definitly parts of the Bible, including parts of the books written by Paul that are anti gay.

Just for clarification, the passages in the epistles that condemn homosexual activity are speaking of hate for the sin, not the sinner. They oppose the activity, not the people. Jesus never said "love your neighbor as yourself unless they are gay." To Christians, the message of Jesus should be clear and ambiguous -- homosexuals are children of God just as everyone else is, they should be given the love of Christ like everyone else, and they are eligible for forgiveness and salvation just as anyone else is.

These teachings of Jesus were unconditional. It's hard for us mortal humans to understand that amount of grace, mercy and forgiveness, but Jesus gave it to us.

 

[AlexBP]

I did hope no-one would defend any of those comments, they are certainly on the extreme end of what I come across. I do not want to give the impression I am generalising all Christians in any way. However, I was under the impression you are to hate the sin not the sinner? Well firstly I disagree that being gay is a sin, I don't really care who people choose to love it isn't my business. Yet homosexuals are banished from being priests, cannot get married and are widely outcast by Christians. I think it is terrible a person is hated or merely disrespected for just being who they are, why can't they be loved like everyone else?

Today many say that opposing gay marriage is a type of hatred, yet few ever think about whether it's true. Jesus and the Apostles defined marriage as a union between one man and one woman and everyone has always defined it that way throughout the history of Christian civilization. Until a few years ago, nobody--not even homosexuals themselves--ever considered the idea of homosexual marriage. This was not because of hatred, but rather because of using the correct definition of "marriage". We issue death certificates for dead people but not for living people. This isn't because we hate the living, but rather because death certificates are intended to certify who is dead. If we gave them to everyone who wanted one, they'd lose their purpose. Likewise we legally confirm marriages for man-and-woman couples, but not for man-and-man couples, because that's what the meaningful definition of marriage is and always has been in our society. It has nothing to do with hatred.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Today many say that opposing gay marriage is a type of hatred, yet few ever think about whether it's true. Jesus and the Apostles defined marriage as a union between one man and one woman and everyone has always defined it that way throughout the history of Christian civilization. Until a few years ago, nobody--not even homosexuals themselves--ever considered the idea of homosexual marriage. This was not because of hatred, but rather because of using the correct definition of "marriage". We issue death certificates for dead people but not for living people. This isn't because we hate the living, but rather because death certificates are intended to certify who is dead. If we gave them to everyone who wanted one, they'd lose their purpose. Likewise we legally confirm marriages for man-and-woman couples, but not for man-and-man couples, because that's what the meaningful definition of marriage is and always has been in our society. It has nothing to do with hatred.

I understand what you are saying, I also understand that women priests are forbidden because a priest is supposed to represent original holy figures, who were men. But does it say anywhere that homosexuals cannot be priests? Or, what makes you think that following the pedantic definition of marriage pleases God? Surely two people loving each other and choosing to be married would please God more than two people out of wedlock. I do not know what a God would want, I am just rationalising what I think shows more love and I think fairness for all is the right path.

 

[Trogool]

I understand what you are saying, I also understand that women priests are forbidden because a priest is supposed to represent original holy figures, who were men.

I've not heard this. There were female holy figures, like Ruth and Judith and Esther, certainly. I've always heard that it is because God ultimately incarnated in a male aspect. If God came as a "Daughter of God", Christianity would logically have priestesses.

But does it say anywhere that homosexuals cannot be priests?

No.

Or, what makes you think that following the pedantic definition of marriage pleases God? Surely two people loving each other and choosing to be married would please God more than two people out of wedlock. I do not know what a God would want, I am just rationalising what I think shows more love and I think fairness for all is the right path.

I can hardly disagree with your annoyance with some peoples' strange idea that civil marriage for homosexuals will destroy civilization.

 

[Curious Atheist]

There are definitly parts of the Bible, including parts of the books written by Paul that are anti gay. I believe the Bible is the greatest book ever written by man and has a great deal of divine truth and wisdom in it, more than any other book I have found, and I have looked. However I do not believe the Bible is free of mistakes and this is simply one of the mistakes, when it tells us to treat women and others as inferior and defective for being born as they are. I see divine truth and wisdom in Ezekieol 18 where we are told we are not responsible for any sin but our own. I also see it in Acts 10:34-35 where it says God does not play favorites but will accept men and women from all nations that "fear him and do what is right"--fear in this context meaning show respect I think. Jesus clearlly taught that all things are summed up in loving God and man and that we love God by loving man--Matt 25:31 and following.

That is very interesting, I don't think I have ever heard any believer but it so bluntly before. How do you know that part of the Bible is wrong? Evidence and simple logic would also show that Noah's ark is wrong, that snakes don't talk, that slavery is immoral amongst other things but how can you be sure? It just seems to me that you can form a point of view then find a quote to support it, you can be on either side of the homosexual debate or otherwise and scripture will support it.

I am interested to what convinces you the Bible is divinely inspired, is it anything you can put in to words?

 

[Enkil]

I understand what you are saying, I also understand that women priests are forbidden because a priest is supposed to represent original holy figures, who were men. But does it say anywhere that homosexuals cannot be priests? Or, what makes you think that following the pedantic definition of marriage pleases God? Surely two people loving each other and choosing to be married would please God more than two people out of wedlock. I do not know what a God would want, I am just rationalising what I think shows more love and I think fairness for all is the right path.

I know you're only trolling us, and you have a few buddies here who are willing to go along with it (one of whom I notice often even denies fundamental aspects of Christianity, but yet claims to e a Christian,) but I'll still take the time to point something out.

All believers are made Kings and Priests in the sight of God.

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I know the Catholics and other denominations have Priests, but scripture teaches we are all made Priests. There is no office where particular individuals are set aside as Priests, as a mediator between God and man, within the Body of Christ. Ergo, your entire series of points here displays your lack of understanding of scripture. Especially the comments on "homosexual priests." I would imagine the parts of the Bible, both old and new testament, which declare homosexuality to be a sin, would naturally forbid them from being Priests (were such an office in existence.) It doesn't take Spock to figure out that logic.

As for homosexuality itself. Considering I myself do suffer from homosexual inclinations, I understand the psychology quite well. It is something brought about by a combination of feelings of inferiority which leads to over compensation by admiring or fantasizing about one's own beauty and ability. Homosexual men behave as women because... a woman is the ideal vision of beauty. In other words, their "gay" behavior is the ultimate evidence of their true nature. Homosexual relationships, especially between men, are not healthy or even loving. You do not know anything about the homosexual community if you do not understand the joke behind the idea of two men remaining loyal to each other. Promiscuity is to be expected, and is common to the vast majority of them. Most who are in "relationships" admit them to be open. The reason for this is simple. Being with a member of the same sex does not bring the same fulfillment as a normal, loving, committed relationship between equals. A relationship between two dysfunctional people in need of affirmation is not normal or healthy. It lasts only for as long as each member of the "partnership" can give something to the individual. Whereas, true love is about sacrifice. Mind you, this is the same situation between any dysfunctional couple, even males and females.

That is another reason why suicide among homosexuals, even in countries where homosexuality is considered normal, is higher than it is for other groups. It also reminds me why suicide is quite high among the Japanese as well. Not because they're homosexuals, but because of the disconnect many young Japanese experience, especially in the extreme business (compared to us) of their work-lives. But that's going off into a different subject. Homosexuals are "disconnected" from one another, even when sharing the same bed. The obsession is on the self, and on self pity and on self glorification. It is a mixture of suffering, vanity and lust, and truly a great tragedy for those who are trapped in it.

Whatever the case, you do not know anything about the Bible or about Christians or even about yourself or people you pretend to defend.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I know you're only trolling us, and you have a few buddies here who are willing to go along with it (one of whom I notice often even denies fundamental aspects of Christianity, but yet claims to e a Christian,) but I'll still take the time to point something out.

All believers are made Kings and Priests in the sight of God.

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I know the Catholics and other denominations have Priests, but scripture teaches we are all made Priests. There is no office where particular individuals are set aside as Priests, as a mediator between God and man, within the Body of Christ. Ergo, your entire series of points here displays your lack of understanding of scripture. Especially the comments on "homosexual priests." I would imagine the parts of the Bible, both old and new testament, which declare homosexuality to be a sin, would naturally forbid them from being Priests (were such an office in existence.) It doesn't take Spock to figure out that logic.

As for homosexuality itself. Considering I myself do suffer from homosexual inclinations, I understand the psychology quite well. It is something brought about by a combination of feelings of inferiority which leads to over compensation by admiring or fantasizing about one's own beauty and ability. Homosexual men behave as women because... a woman is the ideal vision of beauty. In other words, their "gay" behavior is the ultimate evidence of their true nature. Homosexual relationships, especially between men, are not healthy or even loving. You do not know anything about the homosexual community if you do not understand the joke behind the idea of two men remaining loyal to each other. Promiscuity is to be expected, and is common to the vast majority of them. Most who are in "relationships" admit them to be open. The reason for this is simple. Being with a member of the same sex does not bring the same fulfillment as a normal, loving, committed relationship between equals. A relationship between two dysfunctional people in need of affirmation is not normal or healthy. It lasts only for as long as each member of the "partnership" can give something to the individual. Whereas, true love is about sacrifice. Mind you, this is the same situation between any dysfunctional couple, even males and females.

That is another reason why suicide among homosexuals, even in countries where homosexuality is considered normal, is higher than it is for other groups. It also reminds me why suicide is quite high among the Japanese as well. Not because they're homosexuals, but because of the disconnect many young Japanese experience, especially in the extreme business (compared to us) of their work-lives. But that's going off into a different subject. Homosexuals are "disconnected" from one another, even when sharing the same bed. The obsession is on the self, and on self pity and on self glorification. It is a mixture of suffering, vanity and lust, and truly a great tragedy for those who are trapped in it.

Whatever the case, you do not know anything about the Bible or about Christians or even about yourself or people you pretend to defend.

Well firstly, I am not 'trolling' as I am genuinely interested in the answers to my questions. Sorry if my retorts and debating makes you think I am just on a mission of some sort, I don't intend offence or annoyance. I don't have any alliances with members on here either, they are just expressing their own opinions the same way I am trying to.

I don't understand why you think you can generalise such a varied group of people. I would wager that you know gay people yourself, but they have either not confided in you or you have just never asked. I would also bet that the kind of steretyping and negativity expressed towards gay people is part of the reason suicide rates may well be higher, that does not surprise me.
However, I have heard this kind of thing before and to me it doesn't make any sense. If we take everything you say as true, that being gay is a bad choice and leads to bad relationships or whatever you care to suggest. Well, why does this make them bad people? Put it in a different way, people who smoke cigarettes are making a terrible choice that can lead to cancer. Smoking can harm others around you and if you believe in God then you are damaging the body gifted to you, so why isn't smoking a sin? Doesn't this suicidal/unhealthy lifestyle seem worse than loving the wrong person? If two people choose to be together, male or female why is it anyone elses business if they should be or not? We all have our own individual opinions about what makes relationships work or how to express love, I don't understand why your opinion is more important to the extent where you can say others' are wrong.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Whatever the case, you do not know anything about the Bible or about Christians or even about yourself or people you pretend to defend.

The only thing anyone can take from this statement is that you don't know anything about me. If someone comes on to a Christian forum asking questions, as a Christian I thought you would like to take the opportunity to teach and perhaps convert? Obviously this is a fallacy.

 

[elman]

That is very interesting, I don't think I have ever heard any believer but it so bluntly before. How do you know that part of the Bible is wrong? Evidence and simple logic would also show that Noah's ark is wrong, that snakes don't talk, that slavery is immoral amongst other things but how can you be sure? It just seems to me that you can form a point of view then find a quote to support it, you can be on either side of the homosexual debate or otherwise and scripture will support it.

I am interested to what convinces you the Bible is divinely inspired, is it anything you can put in to words?

I think the teaching to love others is divinely inspired. I don't think every part of the Bible is divinely inspired. I believe that God has written on every human heart and we know before the Bible tells us that we should be compassionate for those in need. Yes one can pick and chose from the bible and everyone does, even the critics of the bible. I have read many religious books including the Koran and I have found none that compare with the Bible for containing truth and wisdom, but as I said, I also find things in the bible I believe is not true and not from God. I don't believe God ever killed anyone or ordered anyone to kill someone else. I don't believe God ever regreted creating man and I therefore doubt the literal truth of the story of Noah. I don't believe God ever lied or sent any lying spirits to decieve people. I believe God is loving and good all the time and any indication that God is evil or unloving is not, in my opinion, true. I don't believe in Satan or the existence of evil spirits or demons. I don't believe evil has any source but man. We are the source of our problems and of evil. To the extent that we show love and compassion for others, we are the image of God.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I think the teaching to love others is divinely inspired. I don't think every part of the Bible is divinely inspired. I believe that God has written on every human heart and we know before the Bible tells us that we should be compassionate for those in need. Yes one can pick and chose from the bible and everyone does, even the critics of the bible. I have read many religious books including the Koran and I have found none that compare with the Bible for containing truth and wisdom, but as I said, I also find things in the bible I believe is not true and not from God. I don't believe God ever killed anyone or ordered anyone to kill someone else. I don't believe God ever regreted creating man and I therefore doubt the literal truth of the story of Noah. I don't believe God ever lied or sent any lying spirits to decieve people. I believe God is loving and good all the time and any indication that God is evil or unloving is not, in my opinion, true. I don't believe in Satan or the existence of evil spirits or demons. I don't believe evil has any source but man. We are the source of our problems and of evil. To the extent that we show love and compassion for others, we are the image of God.

It does puzzle me when people pick and choose the best bits of what they say is the word of the creator. But you sound like a nice person, which is kind of my point. If you weren't a nice person you might not mind the nasty bits or mind that God apparently does bad things.
I am an atheist as close to 100% as would be rational as I am willing to change my mind if I was convinced. However I still follow the moral rules the same way Christians would, I consider myself to be very moral and I don't understand what religion brings to the table in that respect. I personally find the idea of heaven and hell repulsive, the idea that God would set up like a game to be played to win at the end is horrible to me.

 

[elman]

It does puzzle me when people pick and choose the best bits of what they say is the word of the creator. But you sound like a nice person, which is kind of my point. If you weren't a nice person you might not mind the nasty bits or mind that God apparently does bad things.
I am an atheist as close to 100% as would be rational as I am willing to change my mind if I was convinced. However I still follow the moral rules the same way Christians would, I consider myself to be very moral and I don't understand what religion brings to the table in that respect. I personally find the idea of heaven and hell repulsive, the idea that God would set up like a game to be played to win at the end is horrible to me.

I don't say the Bible is the word of God. I do think it has some divine truth in it that is from God. Everyone picks and choses--no exception. The Christian who claims they do not pick and chose is deluding themselves--they empasize some parts of the Bible and ignore other parts. The atheists also pick and chose--finding and point out only those parts they use to support their agenda.
I also find the idea of hell as a place of eternal torture incompatible with a loving Creator. Heaven however being a state of existence we cannot imagine or understand is a hope that gives some meaning to this life in which justice does not prevail. If there is no heaven, what is the point of our existence one hundred years from now? Who will remember you existed and even if they do, what will that matter to you? If we are all destined to oblivion and meaninglessness, then ultimatly nothing matters. I believe it does matter for you to be a person of good morals and I think that kind of life will create a meaning to your existence that will transcend your demise.

 

[hedrick]

You're not alone in making these observations. The best documentation I've seen is a book by the Barna organization, themselves fairly conservative Christians. It looks at changes in attitudes towards Christianity among youth and young adults. The title is "unchristian." They observe that until recently, even non-Christians have generally considered the Church a force for good. However in the current younger generations, this is no longer that case, even among Christian youth. The Church is now widely seen as intolerant and hateful, i.e. unchristian.

Why such a change? I have some ideas. Christianity has always been a mixed bag. At its core is the ideal of loving others, doing your best to help them, and forgiving them, and a God who cared enough about us to join us and ultimately die for us. This has been an attractive message, and has had lots of good effects. But there are other forces. The Church, like all religions, tends to be socially conservative. Also, Christians from a few decades after Christ, for some reason started emphasizing agreement on fairly complex abstract doctrines, despite the fact that Jesus himself emphasized behavior, and Paul pleaded with people not to let doctrines divide them.

But until recent, the strengths have largely outshone the weaknesses. Culture has changed fairly slowly, so the conservatism of the church hasn't been that visible, except in isolated cases. Doctrinal problems led to a number of fairly appalling acts against dissenters, but by and large the culture agreed theologically, and most people didn't see the Church as oppressive.

Since the 16th Cent, doctrinal disagreement has started becoming a problem, leading to things like the 30 years war. But the US was largely isolated by the separation of Church and State and a culture that tended not to emphasize these kinds of disagreements. Europe has a different set of issues, having become secular earlier than the US.

However starting about the period of the civil war, the conservative social values have become a problem in the US. The Civil War was a problem, but the Churches mostly came out OK in the civil rights period. However rapid changes in treatment of women, gays, changes in sexual values, and an increasing desire to deal with social problem such as poverty have, in my opinion left the naturally conservative churches on the wrong side of many issues. And that has had the effect of activating theological fault lines that have always been present, but not been as visible. As government and non-religious charities increasingly start doing charitable works, the churches' advantages become less visible just as its weaknesses are all coming home to roost.

I don't think the weaknesses are inherent in the message of Jesus and the prophets. Indeed I think it is their influence that has been the source of most of what is good in our current culture. However making that clear requires a critical reading of the Bible. And as the center of gravity has moved from mainline churches with fairly sophisticated approaches, to more conservative Christianity, fewer people have been willing or able to make that case. Indeed a complete presentation can't even be made under the rules of this site.

Christian Forums is a large, broad-based site. As such, it has a cross-section of Christianity, and shows all of the characteristics that Barna identified. Also, because a site like this tends to make a better base for argument than for service to others, what you see is probably not typical of the experience you'd have in an actual church. I have to say that I've heard credible reports here of some pretty appalling things being said by ministers and other Christians in real church services. However I can assure you that all of the congregations I've ever known have been full of fine people, whose love for Jesus moves them to help each each other and others, and whose strong points are generally more visible than their weak points. There are many fine Christians here, and when they're not arguing with each other, I'm sure they're good people to be with. But I can see how a non-Christian reader might not get that impression.

 

[Enkil]

Well firstly, I am not 'trolling' as I am genuinely interested in the answers to my questions.

Yeah sure. You act as if you're the first Atheist to join up with a name like "curious," or "questioning," and then, with super politeness, ask us why we're all such backward scumbags. Your trolling is not original. You see one over-polite troll asking us why we're so evil, you've seen them all, honestly.

Sorry if my retorts and debating makes you think I am just on a mission of some sort, I don't intend offence or annoyance.

Sure, so that's why you're posting a thread asking us to defend or condemn comments from people who you won't even name while at the same time confessing that you don't even know where in the Bible that homosexuals can't be "Priests."

I don't understand why you think you can generalise such a varied group of people.

Because I can. And the things I have mentioned are widespread and well known for anyone involved (or has knowledge of) in the 'gay' community. But it isn't gay, really, because the word gay would suggest happiness. It is not happy in any sense of the word. There is no genetic evidence that homosexuality is something you are born with. There is every evidence in the world that it has more to do with psychology and upbringing. As such, the patterns tend to produce the same results.

If we take everything you say as true, that being gay is a bad choice and leads to bad relationships or whatever you care to suggest. Well, why does this make them bad people?

What are you even talking about? Bad people? I didn't say anything about that. Though I will say, we are all very bad, depraved people. Human nature is not "good" or something to be confident in. We are a weak sort, and we often embrace our delusions and vanities before we ever think about the truth. Happiness, fun, feeling good and comfortable, these things should never be more important than the Truth.

Put it in a different way, people who smoke cigarettes are making a terrible choice that can lead to cancer. Smoking can harm others around you and if you believe in God then you are damaging the body gifted to you, so why isn't smoking a sin?

Smoking and taking part in a lifestyle prone to disease, depression, and outright depravity cannot be compared. You do not know the extremes of perversity and behavior that occur in 'gay' culture, and it is right there for anyone to see, even in their own magazines and websites.

If two people choose to be together, male or female why is it anyone elses business if they should be or not?

I honestly don't care what any couple does, male or female. But homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God. Adultery, fornication, telling lies, stealing candy from a baby, all these things are also sins. We must confess our sins and repent, and believe in Jesus Christ who did die and rise again. Anything else will result in hellfire.

 

[Enkil]

The only thing anyone can take from this statement is that you don't know anything about me. If someone comes on to a Christian forum asking questions, as a Christian I thought you would like to take the opportunity to teach and perhaps convert? Obviously this is a fallacy.

Hahahaha! Like I haven't heard this before from the other gazillion atheists who post on random Christian forums asking one offensive question after another, and then getting upset because they get called on it eventually.