Christian hate & insanity

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If one loving action between humans or Aliens for that matter, is more important-has more value-- than an entire dead planet, a rock with no life floating in space, regarless of the size of the rock, then what happens to your argument that size is the only factor that indicates significance?

Sorry I don't really follow your question but I will try and answer. I am not saying size is the factor of significance, as size is merely relative (ie our universe could turn out to be a marble in another universe like the ending of Men in black :)). However, the Bible suggests that all of creation including the stars and heavens were created for humans, as humans were made in God's image. So I just think it is a good point worth mentioning that we are a tiny speck in a much larger universe than we can comprehend, which depending on which theory you find more likely could be infinite. But my question was directed at tecnhofox more out of curiousity on the subject than me trying to put my best argument forward to be honest. It is a very complex subject that we cannot answer yet in anything other than theory, so I won't pretend to.
 
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technofox

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Curious Atheist said:
I do respect your viewpoint, so I will humbly agree to disagree on the evidence for and against. But I am now interested in what you think about alien life amongst other things for quite a good reason. Part of what makes me more confident that the Earth and humans were not the work of a creator, made solely for our benefit can be expressed in images such as this IIPMooViewer 2.0 :: IIPImage High Resolution HTML5 Ajax Image Streaming Viewer (please zoom in). It just blows my mind (not literally of course, but as close as I think possible) trying to really appreciate the size of this universe. Why would a God only interested in creating humans in his image create such a huge number of galaxies, stars and planets. There could be a billion other inhabitable planets such as ours, which makes us highly insignificant and not particular special.
I do think the Big Bang theroy is the most likely theory we have and you might find this article interesting Astrobiology Magazine although most of the physics and mathematics is beyond my current understanding. I do not trust everything science and scientists suggest to be true, such as string theory as it is purely theoretical and untestable. But I suppose I do put trust in professionals who have the intellect and understanding I lack, such as the trust I have in a doctor to treat me. Nearly all of my arguments are based upon the principle of occam's razor, the rest generally being from a moral standpoint. Sorry going against my first sentence suggesting I am going to be humble, can you honestly say your faith is based firmly on the most likely answer, since you have move on from being agnostic?

We can agree to disagree. As for alien life, it does not bother me at all if it exists or not, nor does it change my faith in any shape or form; however, I can agree with you that some Christians may have big problems believing in alien life existing. I am doubtful we are the only sentient intelligence in the entire galaxy, let alone the entire universe.

If you read CS Lewis books and open up to some of his ideas, like the childhood stories of Narnia where Aslan the lion is an alluation or characterization of Christ on another world, it is plausable the God may come in different forms to different worlds that lead to similar, if not the same, outcomes in changing the world culture for the better.

Even though I am a protestant, I live in a heavily Catholic neighborhood and I asked my catholic friends what is the catholic church's stance on alien life?

My friend told me that the catholic view of alien life would be to view the terms of being made in God's image as in a spiritual sense. Basically regardless if the sentient intelligence is human, vulcan, or some other intelligent creature the soul of it is made in God's image. I am quite impressed by the Catholic church's stance versus that of modern day protestantism that denies any potential for alien life to exist.

As for your question about going from agnostic to Christianity, I always leaned in favor of God. I had a dream of heaven and saw God, and since then never questioned his existance. My parents are agnostic (though I think my dad maybe an atheist that was raised catholic, not sure though), so any real influence was directly from my mom reading me bible stories when I was younger, but I didn't really understand it more than these men who had faith in God and whenever they were in a jam, they came to God and asked for help.

So what lead me from agnosticism to Christianity is hard to say, but I believe its because I always had a desire to be with God. When I was agnostic, I didn't really believe in any particular religion and was more of a deist, than anything else. Now what led me to Chistianity when I was so hardened against organized religion was a bunch of picular things that happened in my life just before accepting Christ as my Savior and Lord. I was in a dark place and pretty selfish as a person, and I hated myself and where I was at in life. The change was slow but gradual. The first thing to set me into the path of coming to Christ was a sense of change to come for the betterment of myself and others, call it intuition, a hunch, whatever you would like to describe a lingering feeling like what I had. The next was some picular people: an astrologer, a median (or something like that if I remember correctly) that had given me some kind of indication that I was ready for change, but for what at the time I did not know. The year that accepted Christ also had odd things happen, I dated this girl that like back in college and we hit it off (she was Christian), and her mom was pretty upset that I wasn't saved and both tried to witness to me which pushed me away (it was a major turn off). However, something was changing inside and I didn't realize it, but I became more open minded one night after my girlfriend at the time told me to feel free to ask any questions. Well I decided to do my own research into Christianity after she sparked my curiosity, and one late night as I was reading about Jesus and who is and what he is all about, I accepted him as my Savior and Lord right then and there.

Since then its been an interesting road of wonder and discovery. I have learned a great deal about myself that would have happened had I not received Christ into my life. Truth is, just like you legalism turns me off from any religion. I hate it with a passion; however, as I have read the bible more and spoke with Jews and Christians alike I discovered more and more that doctrine and legalism is just plan rubbish as you would put it. Most Christians don't even realize that under Jewish law only a kinsman (blood relative) can bail you out of jail, this is why Jesus had to come in the flesh to pay for our sins.

On top of that as I contiued to educate myself, I realize even more as to why certain sins (and/or OT laws exist); few good examples of OT laws are: circumcision, homosexuality and kosher foods. For homosexuality, at least for guys as some Jews interpret lebianism as OK in a literal interpretation of the law (in their eyers), it was more about protecting the individual from getting STDs and infections, and also to keep them inline with the natural order of God's intention of the sexes. Circumcision is known to reduce the risk of penial cancer and other infections. Kosher foods was due to a lack of refrigeration. There are many others, like pigs for example could not have been killed humanly at the time, which kosher law requires; however, some Jews do it pork now, because we can kill pigs humanly thanks to technology, its weird I know.

I also got into CS Lewis books, which helped greatly expand my perspective on Christianity and modern society. Its the message that really matters to summarize CS Lewis as of my current understanding. Its about faith, hope, and love. Faith in Christ = salvation from sins (past, present, and future), which in turn brings freedom from sin and allowing one to change for the better (i.e. we are no longer bound by the law, because he bailed us out of jail in a sense). This salvation through faith gives hope, hope in that Jesus will be all that is needed to get to heaven and be with God, and hope for becoming a better person as you become less and less selfish by following Christ. The last and most important is Love, it is love where selflessness and altruism comes from and because of love one becomes more like Christ as they love others more than themselves.

In a nutshell the message is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and your neighbor as you would yourself. Out of faith people placed their hope in the unseen (God), and out of love God gave us hope. Its a cycle that requires each one to exist along with the other. As an atheist, I am sure you have hope in somethings, faith in people, and love others as it is the nature of love itself brings out the trifecta of faith, hope, and love. You can't love someone if you don't have faith in them; for example: you may put your faith in your child's ability to learn. You can't have hope without faith: for example: you hope your child's ability to learn will result in great things. You can't have the other two without the foundation of love: for example: a loving parent will have faith that their child can succeed and hope that their child's education will payoff.

What are your thoughts on faith, hope, and love?
 
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chilehed

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...Not really no, I hear bits and pieces occasionally but I couldn’t say I have actually studied the man. I can’t imagine learning much from a superstitious old virgin in a dress, who seems to have very little grasp of reality. How can I take anything the man says seriously when he has a blooper reel of horrendous immoral preachings?

I was going to respond at length to the rest of that post, but then I got to this. "I've never really payed attention to a thing he's actually said, but how can I take him seriously when he says immoral things"??

And you expect anyone to take you seriously?
 
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elman

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Sorry I don't really follow your question but I will try and answer. I am not saying size is the factor of significance, as size is merely relative (ie our universe could turn out to be a marble in another universe like the ending of Men in black :)). However, the Bible suggests that all of creation including the stars and heavens were created for humans, as humans were made in God's image. So I just think it is a good point worth mentioning that we are a tiny speck in a much larger universe than we can comprehend, which depending on which theory you find more likely could be infinite. But my question was directed at tecnhofox more out of curiousity on the subject than me trying to put my best argument forward to be honest. It is a very complex subject that we cannot answer yet in anything other than theory, so I won't pretend to.
I don't see a problem with there being Aliens throughout the universe. I believe the way in which man was created in the image of God is in our ability to love and have compassion for others. I see nothing in the bible that would have prevented God from creating others beings elsewhere also having this ability.
 
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elman

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. I am quite impressed by the Catholic church's stance versus that of modern day protestantism that denies any potential for alien life to exist.

I am not sure your description of protestantism is accurate. Some deny the potential for alien life, but I suspect the vast majoity does not.
 
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We can agree to disagree. As for alien life, it does not bother me at all if it exists or not, nor does it change my faith in any shape or form; however, I can agree with you that some Christians may have big problems believing in alien life existing. I am doubtful we are the only sentient intelligence in the entire galaxy, let alone the entire universe.

If you read CS Lewis books and open up to some of his ideas, like the childhood stories of Narnia where Aslan the lion is an alluation or characterization of Christ on another world, it is plausable the God may come in different forms to different worlds that lead to similar, if not the same, outcomes in changing the world culture for the better.

Even though I am a protestant, I live in a heavily Catholic neighborhood and I asked my catholic friends what is the catholic church's stance on alien life?

My friend told me that the catholic view of alien life would be to view the terms of being made in God's image as in a spiritual sense. Basically regardless if the sentient intelligence is human, vulcan, or some other intelligent creature the soul of it is made in God's image. I am quite impressed by the Catholic church's stance versus that of modern day protestantism that denies any potential for alien life to exist.

As for your question about going from agnostic to Christianity, I always leaned in favor of God. I had a dream of heaven and saw God, and since then never questioned his existance. My parents are agnostic (though I think my dad maybe an atheist that was raised catholic, not sure though), so any real influence was directly from my mom reading me bible stories when I was younger, but I didn't really understand it more than these men who had faith in God and whenever they were in a jam, they came to God and asked for help.

So what lead me from agnosticism to Christianity is hard to say, but I believe its because I always had a desire to be with God. When I was agnostic, I didn't really believe in any particular religion and was more of a deist, than anything else. Now what led me to Chistianity when I was so hardened against organized religion was a bunch of picular things that happened in my life just before accepting Christ as my Savior and Lord. I was in a dark place and pretty selfish as a person, and I hated myself and where I was at in life. The change was slow but gradual. The first thing to set me into the path of coming to Christ was a sense of change to come for the betterment of myself and others, call it intuition, a hunch, whatever you would like to describe a lingering feeling like what I had. The next was some picular people: an astrologer, a median (or something like that if I remember correctly) that had given me some kind of indication that I was ready for change, but for what at the time I did not know. The year that accepted Christ also had odd things happen, I dated this girl that like back in college and we hit it off (she was Christian), and her mom was pretty upset that I wasn't saved and both tried to witness to me which pushed me away (it was a major turn off). However, something was changing inside and I didn't realize it, but I became more open minded one night after my girlfriend at the time told me to feel free to ask any questions. Well I decided to do my own research into Christianity after she sparked my curiosity, and one late night as I was reading about Jesus and who is and what he is all about, I accepted him as my Savior and Lord right then and there.

Since then its been an interesting road of wonder and discovery. I have learned a great deal about myself that would have happened had I not received Christ into my life. Truth is, just like you legalism turns me off from any religion. I hate it with a passion; however, as I have read the bible more and spoke with Jews and Christians alike I discovered more and more that doctrine and legalism is just plan rubbish as you would put it. Most Christians don't even realize that under Jewish law only a kinsman (blood relative) can bail you out of jail, this is why Jesus had to come in the flesh to pay for our sins.

On top of that as I contiued to educate myself, I realize even more as to why certain sins (and/or OT laws exist); few good examples of OT laws are: circumcision, homosexuality and kosher foods. For homosexuality, at least for guys as some Jews interpret lebianism as OK in a literal interpretation of the law (in their eyers), it was more about protecting the individual from getting STDs and infections, and also to keep them inline with the natural order of God's intention of the sexes. Circumcision is known to reduce the risk of penial cancer and other infections. Kosher foods was due to a lack of refrigeration. There are many others, like pigs for example could not have been killed humanly at the time, which kosher law requires; however, some Jews do it pork now, because we can kill pigs humanly thanks to technology, its weird I know.

I also got into CS Lewis books, which helped greatly expand my perspective on Christianity and modern society. Its the message that really matters to summarize CS Lewis as of my current understanding. Its about faith, hope, and love. Faith in Christ = salvation from sins (past, present, and future), which in turn brings freedom from sin and allowing one to change for the better (i.e. we are no longer bound by the law, because he bailed us out of jail in a sense). This salvation through faith gives hope, hope in that Jesus will be all that is needed to get to heaven and be with God, and hope for becoming a better person as you become less and less selfish by following Christ. The last and most important is Love, it is love where selflessness and altruism comes from and because of love one becomes more like Christ as they love others more than themselves.

In a nutshell the message is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and your neighbor as you would yourself. Out of faith people placed their hope in the unseen (God), and out of love God gave us hope. Its a cycle that requires each one to exist along with the other. As an atheist, I am sure you have hope in somethings, faith in people, and love others as it is the nature of love itself brings out the trifecta of faith, hope, and love. You can't love someone if you don't have faith in them; for example: you may put your faith in your child's ability to learn. You can't have hope without faith: for example: you hope your child's ability to learn will result in great things. You can't have the other two without the foundation of love: for example: a loving parent will have faith that their child can succeed and hope that their child's education will payoff.

What are your thoughts on faith, hope, and love?

Your conversion is interesting, yet reminiscent of others I have heard that generally revolve around starting to see events happening in their own lives in a different way, leading on to believe they are part of larger cause or fate. Which in answering your question regarding my view on faith, is quite a universal experience that is put down to different causes depending on when, and where you are born. I will try and keep this as simple as possible, but it can easily become a very complex question worthy of a rant. However in confirmation of my last sentence I read articles quite often, some focused on evolutionary psychology with regards to the brain using new brain scanning technology as well as other more traditional behaviour psychology. Basically all of these tests, including others you may be familiar with such as the superstition test on pigeons (it is on youtube too) all unanimously show that we have an in-built behaviour to be superstitious. It seems common we also fear death and want to believe in a higher meaning to our own existence, which all give very reasonable explanations as to why there are so many superstitions in the world. So my own opinion is when looking at a world view, we have hundreds or thousands of religions, all containing even more subsidiary followings before we even get to personal interpretations and lucky rabbits feet, which makes choosing right and wrong impossible. You can wager a bet with good odds though you can at least narrow down the named religion based on geographic alone, also pretty darn accurate when you include the dimension of time too. So possibly it is my whimsically rebellious nature, pretending I am not part of the crowd, but it seems categorical that one’s own beliefs are based on the society they grew up in. So it then seems very small-minded to claim your faith-based belief is somehow superior, since you can only claim you were born to certain parents in a certain demographic as evidence. It is almost racist type thinking, to view superiority based on some meaningless factor like where you are born if you see what I mean. So it then seems preposterous to be able to choose, when they are either all equally plausible or all equally wrong. The only method of defining fact that I know of is to use the scientific method of testing, which has shown many of the old beliefs to be false. So this may be a fine example of hypocrisy, but I do not see this as false when we owe so much to scientific logic, many I have listed already that we full trust every day of our lives such as air travel, the combustion engine, electricity and jam. I have ranted a lot already, but just to summarise I think if we can trust the reality we live in enough to hop on a plane, we can trust it enough to find these things as more likely to exist than supernatural beings acting as puppeteers to our world. So therefore I trust evolution as proof that intelligent, complex life can exist without outside intervention based on science and not faith, I also trust the studies that show our true innate natural behaviours. I have no idea how the universe came to be, but if it was a creator then I am certain it is not a being with a personal interest on whether we like him enough.
Hope is a more difficult subject to rant about, but I do love books like ‘predictably irrational’ which show we are truly a hopeful, optimistic bunch deep down. Without getting in to the dull evolutionary explanation, hope really is a fantastic thing we all really need. But linking this back to faith, the two are made for each other. We can very easily fool ourselves into believing whatever we want to believe, but usually in an optimistic way which is an important point. Since we again have an innate behaviour to easily take on board what we want to hear and remember evidence that backs up our convictions whilst subconsciously discarding the rest. This is why many of us don’t worry about debts, expecting that something will come along in a lump sum or why many care little about saving money or their health. No-one thinks they will be one of the 1 in 3 that gets cancer or have any other terrible thing happen. So I approve of hope very strongly, it helps keep us sane, but with too much hope and little reason things can get very silly. Like an oiled otter down a waterslide, we end up with fundamentalist beliefs in inexplicable utopias after we die and practically anything else. Although my own version of hope requires no magic, please check this article Synthetic XNA molecules can evolve and store genetic information, just like DNA | Not Exactly Rocket Science | Discover Magazine which shows the kind of thing I am hopeful about. I believe that scientific advancement is the key to a better world. Technology can feed the hungry, cure the sick and provide the energy needed to entertain them. The way things are going we could make the blind see, the crippled walk and even (to quote Snape from Harry Potter) put a stopper in death. So I find it very frustrating when people prevent advancement due to superstitious beliefs, imagine if penicillin was never re-discovered because of a black cat?
Love in the least romantic sense makes a great deal of evolutionary sense. But to avoid sweeping damsels off their feet with my words, I will stick to the context in which you asked for the most part. Love is difficult to define, as you could just mean the love you have for family and friends. But then there is also love that many others describe as altruism, acts of love to strangers. It is one of the most remarkable aspects of human nature we often show selfless acts to those we have no connection and no hope of reward, I am all for it but I can’t say much more than that. I don’t see it as having anything to do with what people believe exactly (religious wise), more about what you do that counts. There is no evidence that following any doctrine shows anything but a negative connotation to un-loving acts, prejudice and law breaking. But it would be more difficult to test how many bad people are good because of religion too, nor how many of these are true believers (like the many conversions in prison).

Just one final point regarding faith, hope and love. Many claim absolute faith and hope in their God, that they love more than themselves. However all three of these tend to fail for most people when their lives are at risk, such as forgetting the efficacy of prayer when seriously ill and seeking the help of a doctor (when praying for a cold to go away always works too no doubt). When someone’s child dies they are understandable bereaved, yet the true happiness of knowing your child is in heaven seems to be missing. Yes they will miss them, but I doubt many would be as upset to know they won’t see a loved one because they are living their dreams and have chosen to move to a tropical island, than if they had died. When does the joy come? Why is it always doom and gloom when surely they have gone to a better place? This is an important point as many choose to turn their beliefs on and off at will.
 
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technofox

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Curious Atheist said:
Your conversion is interesting, yet reminiscent of others I have heard that generally revolve around starting to see events happening in their own lives in a different way, leading on to believe they are part of larger cause or fate. Which in answering your question regarding my view on faith, is quite a universal experience that is put down to different causes depending on when, and where you are born. I will try and keep this as simple as possible, but it can easily become a very complex question worthy of a rant. However in confirmation of my last sentence I read articles quite often, some focused on evolutionary psychology with regards to the brain using new brain scanning technology as well as other more traditional behaviour psychology. Basically all of these tests, including others you may be familiar with such as the superstition test on pigeons (it is on youtube too) all unanimously show that we have an in-built behaviour to be superstitious. It seems common we also fear death and want to believe in a higher meaning to our own existence, which all give very reasonable explanations as to why there are so many superstitions in the world. So my own opinion is when looking at a world view, we have hundreds or thousands of religions, all containing even more subsidiary followings before we even get to personal interpretations and lucky rabbits feet, which makes choosing right and wrong impossible. You can wager a bet with good odds though you can at least narrow down the named religion based on geographic alone, also pretty darn accurate when you include the dimension of time too. So possibly it is my whimsically rebellious nature, pretending I am not part of the crowd, but it seems categorical that one’s own beliefs are based on the society they grew up in. So it then seems very small-minded to claim your faith-based belief is somehow superior, since you can only claim you were born to certain parents in a certain demographic as evidence. It is almost racist type thinking, to view superiority based on some meaningless factor like where you are born if you see what I mean. So it then seems preposterous to be able to choose, when they are either all equally plausible or all equally wrong. The only method of defining fact that I know of is to use the scientific method of testing, which has shown many of the old beliefs to be false. So this may be a fine example of hypocrisy, but I do not see this as false when we owe so much to scientific logic, many I have listed already that we full trust every day of our lives such as air travel, the combustion engine, electricity and jam. I have ranted a lot already, but just to summarise I think if we can trust the reality we live in enough to hop on a plane, we can trust it enough to find these things as more likely to exist than supernatural beings acting as puppeteers to our world. So therefore I trust evolution as proof that intelligent, complex life can exist without outside intervention based on science and not faith, I also trust the studies that show our true innate natural behaviours. I have no idea how the universe came to be, but if it was a creator then I am certain it is not a being with a personal interest on whether we like him enough.
Hope is a more difficult subject to rant about, but I do love books like ‘predictably irrational’ which show we are truly a hopeful, optimistic bunch deep down. Without getting in to the dull evolutionary explanation, hope really is a fantastic thing we all really need. But linking this back to faith, the two are made for each other. We can very easily fool ourselves into believing whatever we want to believe, but usually in an optimistic way which is an important point. Since we again have an innate behaviour to easily take on board what we want to hear and remember evidence that backs up our convictions whilst subconsciously discarding the rest. This is why many of us don’t worry about debts, expecting that something will come along in a lump sum or why many care little about saving money or their health. No-one thinks they will be one of the 1 in 3 that gets cancer or have any other terrible thing happen. So I approve of hope very strongly, it helps keep us sane, but with too much hope and little reason things can get very silly. Like an oiled otter down a waterslide, we end up with fundamentalist beliefs in inexplicable utopias after we die and practically anything else. Although my own version of hope requires no magic, please check this article Synthetic XNA molecules can evolve and store genetic information, just like DNA | Not Exactly Rocket Science | Discover Magazine which shows the kind of thing I am hopeful about. I believe that scientific advancement is the key to a better world. Technology can feed the hungry, cure the sick and provide the energy needed to entertain them. The way things are going we could make the blind see, the crippled walk and even (to quote Snape from Harry Potter) put a stopper in death. So I find it very frustrating when people prevent advancement due to superstitious beliefs, imagine if penicillin was never re-discovered because of a black cat?
Love in the least romantic sense makes a great deal of evolutionary sense. But to avoid sweeping damsels off their feet with my words, I will stick to the context in which you asked for the most part. Love is difficult to define, as you could just mean the love you have for family and friends. But then there is also love that many others describe as altruism, acts of love to strangers. It is one of the most remarkable aspects of human nature we often show selfless acts to those we have no connection and no hope of reward, I am all for it but I can’t say much more than that. I don’t see it as having anything to do with what people believe exactly (religious wise), more about what you do that counts. There is no evidence that following any doctrine shows anything but a negative connotation to un-loving acts, prejudice and law breaking. But it would be more difficult to test how many bad people are good because of religion too, nor how many of these are true believers (like the many conversions in prison).

Just one final point regarding faith, hope and love. Many claim absolute faith and hope in their God, that they love more than themselves. However all three of these tend to fail for most people when their lives are at risk, such as forgetting the efficacy of prayer when seriously ill and seeking the help of a doctor (when praying for a cold to go away always works too no doubt). When someone’s child dies they are understandable bereaved, yet the true happiness of knowing your child is in heaven seems to be missing. Yes they will miss them, but I doubt many would be as upset to know they won’t see a loved one because they are living their dreams and have chosen to move to a tropical island, than if they had died. When does the joy come? Why is it always doom and gloom when surely they have gone to a better place? This is an important point as many choose to turn their beliefs on and off at will.

As as a technologist myself, I agree with you that science and technology will lead to a better future, than strict doctrine to any form of theocracy. The problem is that science has still a lot to explain about the universe, before we can dismiss any (or all) theology. Once we can exit time and read it like a book from front to back, and see the history of everything, only then can we even claim whether a diety exists or not. Also another odd puzzle is why are we superstitious?

I am reading up on Zen, which focuses on removing one's self from the equation, like thoughts and feelings that have no bearing on the reality of what is. A good example: is an ivy plant, its green, has leaves, and other discript information, whereas the self looks and say is this a good/bad ivy plant? Does the ivy plant make my happy? And many other questions that are selfish in nature.

The reality is that none of us know if God does/doesn't exist. In the end we take it on faith on what we believe is to be true. You believe science and the reality of your perceptions say there is no God, and for me science provides a better understanding of the craftsmanship of a master engineer that is far greater than my own understanding of the universe. I may see the reality of the universe's physical characteristics (since we are discussing the material parts) and enjoy the fruits of scientific inquery and knowledge, but I also understand its limits and cannot conclude there is no God, because there is enough evidence to eliminate God's existance.

So for me to be an atheist (or agnostic), would require more proof, just as much so for you to require proof to become a Christian (or of any faith). We are basically opposites sides of a coin that demands evidence to bring about whether we are on side (those of faith) or the other (atheism). To me we are both of respectable minds, because we can think alike, yet have different conclusion and perceptions.

By the way, I will read your articles when I get then chance with grad school, work, and dating its been tough on the free time. I enjoy reading anything that involves history, science, and technology. It sometimes drives other Christians mad when I discuss something that contradicts their long held beliefs via science, but I would rather speak honestly than to be dishonest and ignore the facts that come to light. I would rather be flexible in my faith than oppose scientific advancement that is for the betterment of mankind; its a tough thing to do, especially when you are around sola scriptura people, but God calls us to be honest with ouselves and others.
 
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As as a technologist myself, I agree with you that science and technology will lead to a better future, than strict doctrine to any form of theocracy. The problem is that science has still a lot to explain about the universe, before we can dismiss any (or all) theology. Once we can exit time and read it like a book from front to back, and see the history of everything, only then can we even claim whether a diety exists or not. Also another odd puzzle is why are we superstitious?

I am reading up on Zen, which focuses on removing one's self from the equation, like thoughts and feelings that have no bearing on the reality of what is. A good example: is an ivy plant, its green, has leaves, and other discript information, whereas the self looks and say is this a good/bad ivy plant? Does the ivy plant make my happy? And many other questions that are selfish in nature.

The reality is that none of us know if God does/doesn't exist. In the end we take it on faith on what we believe is to be true. You believe science and the reality of your perceptions say there is no God, and for me science provides a better understanding of the craftsmanship of a master engineer that is far greater than my own understanding of the universe. I may see the reality of the universe's physical characteristics (since we are discussing the material parts) and enjoy the fruits of scientific inquery and knowledge, but I also understand its limits and cannot conclude there is no God, because there is enough evidence to eliminate God's existance.

So for me to be an atheist (or agnostic), would require more proof, just as much so for you to require proof to become a Christian (or of any faith). We are basically opposites sides of a coin that demands evidence to bring about whether we are on side (those of faith) or the other (atheism). To me we are both of respectable minds, because we can think alike, yet have different conclusion and perceptions.

By the way, I will read your articles when I get then chance with grad school, work, and dating its been tough on the free time. I enjoy reading anything that involves history, science, and technology. It sometimes drives other Christians mad when I discuss something that contradicts their long held beliefs via science, but I would rather speak honestly than to be dishonest and ignore the facts that come to light. I would rather be flexible in my faith than oppose scientific advancement that is for the betterment of mankind; its a tough thing to do, especially when you are around sola scriptura people, but God calls us to be honest with ouselves and others.

Well firstly the article is one of many regarding artificial DNA/RNA which can replicate itself and evolve all on its own. If humans can create all that is needed for life in a lab, in a short period of having the technology to make the discovery possible, it makes the idea of needing a hyper-intelligent creator less likely. But more importantly, this is a whole new direction of what the future could hold, obviously the ethical questions are difficult in some areas but with everything else aside, it is just really interesting.
I have highlighted a few of the main points in your quote above that I will respond to. Firstly, I don’t think you are falling for the ‘God of the gaps’ but in your wording does suggest it. The retort being that just because something is unknown, doesn’t mean it is unknowable, or even if we cannot answer a question that does not mean a God is the most likely answer to fill that gap in our knowledge. But as to why we are superstitious, I believe it to be part of the way we learn and you can see it with most animals. A great example is the pigeon study I mentioned that you can view here [FONT=&quot]Pigeon Superstition Experiment - YouTube where you could probably deduce that superstition is a mistake linking cause and effect. ‘I wore red socks and scored 7 home runs, next time I will wear them again’ which is common among atheletes, whereas the pigeon linked the food with a head shake etc. So humans do the same ‘I had a cold and prayed for it to go away and it did!’ or ‘I prayed for a baby girl when the doctors said I was sterile, and now I have a baby girl!” which is easy to do if you don’t understand how probability works, or are particularly cunning at ignoring the plethora of unanswered prayers, by yourself or other people who did not get pregnant or whose cold went away because they did a rain dance. But anyway, superstition is part of how we learn and in a way a similar question to why do kids believe everything their parents say? Which is answered by evolutionary psychology, but also a big reason that a Jewish person has Jewish parents, a Muslim family have Muslim kids etc and why the beliefs stick for life a lot of the time, especially in poorer areas where education is lacking.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The thing is about proving something does not exist, is that it is impossible, as even if we could watch the whole of time on a DVD then someone could still say ‘God is timeless’ or ‘God removed those parts from the film’ or anything else at all. There is no physical evidence that could ever disprove a God 100% as even the dinosaurs are thought to be a test of faith by God, or a trick by the devil by others who deny evolution. But neither can you prove the non-existence of fairies, mythical creatures or anything else someone could just make up on the spot. The point is not to entirely disprove absolutely everything in our imaginations, then believing whatever is left over, it is to use evidence based, rational thinking to confirm what is universal truth. So if I claimed there is an elephant in my local bar that can play poker, you are not a fool for not believing me on my word and would want to see the clever behemoth. But what if you turned up every day for three years and it never showed up? Could we then conclude 100% it never existed? Or we could we at least say that due to the lack of any credability, we will mark the poker-elephant as ‘almost certainly never existed’. This is a round about way of saying Occam’s razor again, but surely you do see that it expecting God to be disproved before deciding to lose your faith is unreasonable? The best anyone can ever offer is a more likely explanation. Or another way of putting it is, if you want to make 2 you add 1 and 1 like this 1+1=2 which is fair simpler than 1= (100-4) X (33 X 44)0 +1. So you are making everything far more complicated than it needs to be in reality, if you accept evolution and other scientific reasoning, why then say ‘but God was behind it all!’ which adds an unneeded factor? You can put God in place of the big bang if you want, but everything about a personal God is surely coming from the Bible and not a rational thought process. So what say you to these latest attempts?[/FONT]
 
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Jonathan95

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I am reading up on Zen, which focuses on removing one's self from the equation, like thoughts and feelings that have no bearing on the reality of what is. A good example: is an ivy plant, its green, has leaves, and other discript information, whereas the self looks and say is this a good/bad ivy plant? Does the ivy plant make my happy? And many other questions that are selfish in nature.

Zen is Occult, and demonic! It will open up to demons, it's sin.
 
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technofox

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Jonathan95 said:
Zen is Occult, and demonic! It will open up to demons, it's sin.

Jon, maybe you should get educated before spouting your ignorance. I am much older than you and hold a graduate degree. I am not going to let you trash this thread.

Zen is not an occult, it is a philosphy which is centered around observing reality, usually via meditation. There is no religion involved, unless you are speaking of buhddism, then in which you would be most certainly current in terms of idolatry. I am not practicing buhddism, just Zen meditation; there are also Christianized forms of Zen, because of the focus of removing one's self from the equation (or removing one's selfishness in simplist terms).

A prime example is your post, inflamatory yet the reality shows that you are ignorant, maybe even uneducated. If you did thorough research and learned about a subject matter, then you be able to give a proper assessment. Just posting a statement like yours is one of many reasons why people leave Christianity and not take it seriously.

Observe my conversations are with an atheist; how is your post helping?

Just like a prior thread, you ended up getting it locked because you couldn't get the hint and people reported you on my behalf, even though it wasn't necessary on their part. I respect your zeal for Christ as I too love Jesus and wouldn't waste my time on another religion; however, your ignorance and attitude is hurting more than helping people see what Christianity is all about. People who are well educated atheists (or agnostics) look at us Christians as ignorant fools who don't understand anything outside of basic doctrine.

So please stop posting here if you have nothing good to say or offers some form of benefit to this thread. You can feel free to ask questions if you don't understand something, as I would be glad to help and offer resources for you to gain a better understanding of what is being discussed. Don't be afraid to learn something new.

Zen helps in my relationship of Christ, because I deal with anxiety and anger issues (bad stress), and the benefit is being able to separate the selfish feelings (bad stress) from the reality of a situation. If it causes you to sin, then don't do it.

Other than that, from here forward think before you post, because I care about Curious Atheist and enjoy conversing with him. To close this thread, because of you posting inflamatory material is just going make it worse in creating a common ground between atheists and Christians.

Either way, I have no intention of coming off slightly aggitated, but you should realize that this post is nothing more than a rebuke. I want you to grow in knowledge and understanding, so that you can be better able to lead others to Christ.
 
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technofox

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Curious Atheist said:
Well firstly the article is one of many regarding artificial DNA/RNA which can replicate itself and evolve all on its own. If humans can create all that is needed for life in a lab, in a short period of having the technology to make the discovery possible, it makes the idea of needing a hyper-intelligent creator less likely. But more importantly, this is a whole new direction of what the future could hold, obviously the ethical questions are difficult in some areas but with everything else aside, it is just really interesting.
I have highlighted a few of the main points in your quote above that I will respond to. Firstly, I don’t think you are falling for the ‘God of the gaps’ but in your wording does suggest it. The retort being that just because something is unknown, doesn’t mean it is unknowable, or even if we cannot answer a question that does not mean a God is the most likely answer to fill that gap in our knowledge. But as to why we are superstitious, I believe it to be part of the way we learn and you can see it with most animals. A great example is the pigeon study I mentioned that you can view here Pigeon Superstition Experiment - YouTube where you could probably deduce that superstition is a mistake linking cause and effect. ‘I wore red socks and scored 7 home runs, next time I will wear them again’ which is common among atheletes, whereas the pigeon linked the food with a head shake etc. So humans do the same ‘I had a cold and prayed for it to go away and it did!’ or ‘I prayed for a baby girl when the doctors said I was sterile, and now I have a baby girl!” which is easy to do if you don’t understand how probability works, or are particularly cunning at ignoring the plethora of unanswered prayers, by yourself or other people who did not get pregnant or whose cold went away because they did a rain dance. But anyway, superstition is part of how we learn and in a way a similar question to why do kids believe everything their parents say? Which is answered by evolutionary psychology, but also a big reason that a Jewish person has Jewish parents, a Muslim family have Muslim kids etc and why the beliefs stick for life a lot of the time, especially in poorer areas where education is lacking.
The thing is about proving something does not exist, is that it is impossible, as even if we could watch the whole of time on a DVD then someone could still say ‘God is timeless’ or ‘God removed those parts from the film’ or anything else at all. There is no physical evidence that could ever disprove a God 100% as even the dinosaurs are thought to be a test of faith by God, or a trick by the devil by others who deny evolution. But neither can you prove the non-existence of fairies, mythical creatures or anything else someone could just make up on the spot. The point is not to entirely disprove absolutely everything in our imaginations, then believing whatever is left over, it is to use evidence based, rational thinking to confirm what is universal truth. So if I claimed there is an elephant in my local bar that can play poker, you are not a fool for not believing me on my word and would want to see the clever behemoth. But what if you turned up every day for three years and it never showed up? Could we then conclude 100% it never existed? Or we could we at least say that due to the lack of any credability, we will mark the poker-elephant as ‘almost certainly never existed’. This is a round about way of saying Occam’s razor again, but surely you do see that it expecting God to be disproved before deciding to lose your faith is unreasonable? The best anyone can ever offer is a more likely explanation. Or another way of putting it is, if you want to make 2 you add 1 and 1 like this 1+1=2 which is fair simpler than 1= (100-4) X (33 X 44)0 +1. So you are making everything far more complicated than it needs to be in reality, if you accept evolution and other scientific reasoning, why then say ‘but God was behind it all!’ which adds an unneeded factor? You can put God in place of the big bang if you want, but everything about a personal God is surely coming from the Bible and not a rational thought process. So what say you to these latest attempts?

I see where you are coming from by implying that I can't prove or disprove a negative. Good one ;-)

As for the rationale to suspend my belief, it just takes evidence to see the big picture. I would literally have to see the evidence that can show the creation of the universe to its end and rebirth as a sustainable process that does not require the constant of a supernatual being. Basically the moment we can show that the universe can be created, end, and be recreated in an infinite loop without end, without the chicken or the egg scenario; only then would I be able to dismiss the notion of the possibility of God existing, since that would explain the beginnig, the end, and the rebirth of a constant which would be the universe itself.

Basically with a finite universe, we need a constant to make it exist. Assuming that the universe itself is the constant, which science has not determined yet and evidence supports that the universe is finite (e.g. open universe = no collapsing into itself to form another big bang, let alone how hawking radition may affect the closed universe theories), then and only then can we begin to dismiss the possibility of a diety existing. To me the lack of an infinite universe life cycle is the missing piece to the puzzle of a universe as a whole.

Once that is solved, it then leads to the chicken and the egg problem (paradox loop), was there a first universe? Can the universe be perpetual and self existing without God?

The caveat of the perpetual universe is that it may bring to question God's existance; however, all it really does is bring into question are all religions wrong?

So in a sense, the perpetual universe will likely end the long standing debates of which religion is the right religion. Since just about all religions would be proven wrong by such a discovery, this would leave us with only the last question: does or did God exist?

That in of itself will likely never be answered until we can separate ourselves from time and see the whole picture, even if it is recursively (e.g. the universe just repeats itself and you and I will be having the same discussion again in another universe). Even then or only the will it be possible to prove that God doesn't exist to a major portion of the population (there will always be those who will believe no matter what).
 
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I see where you are coming from by implying that I can't prove or disprove a negative. Good one ;-)

As for the rationale to suspend my belief, it just takes evidence to see the big picture. I would literally have to see the evidence that can show the creation of the universe to its end and rebirth as a sustainable process that does not require the constant of a supernatual being. Basically the moment we can show that the universe can be created, end, and be recreated in an infinite loop without end, without the chicken or the egg scenario; only then would I be able to dismiss the notion of the possibility of God existing, since that would explain the beginnig, the end, and the rebirth of a constant which would be the universe itself.

Basically with a finite universe, we need a constant to make it exist. Assuming that the universe itself is the constant, which science has not determined yet and evidence supports that the universe is finite (e.g. open universe = no collapsing into itself to form another big bang, let alone how hawking radition may affect the closed universe theories), then and only then can we begin to dismiss the possibility of a diety existing. To me the lack of an infinite universe life cycle is the missing piece to the puzzle of a universe as a whole.

Once that is solved, it then leads to the chicken and the egg problem (paradox loop), was there a first universe? Can the universe be perpetual and self existing without God?

The caveat of the perpetual universe is that it may bring to question God's existance; however, all it really does is bring into question are all religions wrong?

So in a sense, the perpetual universe will likely end the long standing debates of which religion is the right religion. Since just about all religions would be proven wrong by such a discovery, this would leave us with only the last question: does or did God exist?

That in of itself will likely never be answered until we can separate ourselves from time and see the whole picture, even if it is recursively (e.g. the universe just repeats itself and you and I will be having the same discussion again in another universe). Even then or only the will it be possible to prove that God doesn't exist to a major portion of the population (there will always be those who will believe no matter what).

Firstly I have two important questions, the first being why you need proof to disprove God first. I know you understand my point already but I don’t think you have answered why you will believe in God until you are satisfied he does not exist and not the other way around? As I don’t think they are equally reasonable arguments based on what we have discussed so far (whilst you have dismissed other beliefs without the same proof you expect to disprove the Christian God).

The second is why do you base your beliefs on an assumption that a finite universe requires supernatural explanation? I am not going to attempt to rebuke any proposed theories like Hawkins radiation as I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject. However, considering there has never been a problem that has led to the supernatural as being the most likely explanation, why do you think it is most likely for this problem? Although as you mention that is one of many theories and indeed we could be part of a multi-verse, infinite parallel dimensions of space/time or a 4D universe with one dimension of lateral time etc so there really are many, many, things we do not know. But again filling these gaps in scientific understanding isn’t narrowing down the truth, it is an assumption. I have crazy theories I think up to explain time, that I send to my brother who is in his fourth year of his physics degree. Thus far he hasn’t understood what the dickens I am talking about, so I would be silly and a tad arrogant to just assume I am right until someone understand my ramblings and destroys their merit.

From a different angle though my main point I would like to make is that even if the gaps in knowledge are indeed filled with God, your argument still doesn’t hold. What I mean is, that you arguing for a supernatural force being the creator of the universe and almost the fabric that holds it all together, which some also describe as God being the universe. I can’t dispute this although it is a less likely answer than other theories. But the main point is that there is a huge gap between the outside chance of a gap filled with God, and a being with a personal interest in our lives. If this creator is indeed controlling the entire universe and all of its billions of galaxies, what makes you think that it is a consciousness that seeks out intelligent life in order to pretend it doesn’t exist, whilst guiding them through a tiny portion of time? If this being did indeed want to create life, it would not need an entire universe filled with very little other than burning gas dotted about would it? Or maybe it does, who knows (irony) but do you see the huge looming gap between an unexplained pre-universe question and a God that sent his son to Earth to die for our sins, who then changed his mind and decided not to be dead anymore? So inevitably you are basing your beliefs on the Bible, which with your education you can easily find flaws in. So then you cherry pick parts, but you could be doing this with the Koran if you were born in the middle-east or otherwise. So I know I have repeated many points, but I think they are valid ones.

But anyway, I don’t think either of us is going to change our minds on subjects we have both clearly put thought in to. So I in no way see us as being opposites, but have concluded things in different ways and probably conclude the other is less open-minded. But the real dangers I see in religion are those like the wonderful post you replied to (which I thought was an ironic joke!) which shows such ignorance it is cringe worthy. I dislike it when people blindly follow things and act on them based only on a lack of education and understanding, although stupidity can be found in every creed. Or base their morals on a 2000 year out-of-date rule book which is then consulted on subjects like stem cell research or cloning and only vague hints are followed (a timeless deity could have been a bit more specific). But anyway, if all of these things didn’t affect anyone I wouldn’t really mind, but when climate change and habitat destruction is ignored due to pig-headed rejection or major problems ignored because ‘Jesus is returning soon, so who cares’ then I admit I really do wish religion would just disappear from the world and wish more people preferred education to wishful thinking.

(ps here is an article I can’t remember if I posted earlier, but very relevant to your post Astrobiology Magazine)
 
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kimmyh51

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Now to the insanity, how do you know if a Christian has crossed the line and are infact, crazy? .

Personally - Id evaluate that the same way Id evaluate anyones potentially being crazy

if they are acting crazy, looking crazy, doing crazy etc .... :)

However as a christian, I would then (hopefully - if I was having a good day in terms of keeping myself morally semi-upright) ask god to reveal to me what was going on with that person and what he wanted me to do (if anything)

I think people tend to forget that just as he can and does in most other areas of human life, satan and his deception can also undermine christians. Some of the other stuff you mentioned in your post - I personally have been lucky to meet great christians and have not experienced that sort of attitude. But if I did, I would probably distance myself from a person or church that preached anything like that straight away (and maybe when I am a more experienced/better christian go back to them and try and save them lol)

Anyway the point I am trying to make is just because someone claims to be christian, or even additionally is ordained as a minister or whatever - this does NOT mean they are. They may be a christian who has been deceived into some ,legalistic viewpoints. Or they may not be a christian at all and simply there to deceive (or maybe just because they think it makes them look good to be in or leading a church)
I would also like to clarify that though I think/suspect there are sadly too many examples of churches where non biblical values are actioned - I am personally in no position to judge, so if confronted with that sort of thing personally - I would hope that I would simply ask god to reveal to me what was going on if he felt so inclined, but if he didnt or while waiting I would remove myself from that church and seek out one that I felt good about. However I wouldnt go and announce to them or others that they were 'not christians' etc. As I think that is totally judgemental and outside my understanding. I also know that I personally do many unchristian things on a regular basis, but i am sure i am saved - so its not for me to say that these people are not similar. Anyway - whether or not they are geniunely saved is not something that you need to concern yourself about - what matters is what they are preaching to you feels wrong, so you need to acknowledge that.
MY experience as a new christian a year ago was when looking for a church I couldnt find one (by googling local churches) that felt right - plus i was making excuses cos I was too scared to go into one on a sunday. :o

So I looked a few times, went to none then said in my head to god, "ok i give up cant find one that looks right or appealing, you find me one".
2 days later I was treasurehunted by a couple of people - so went to their church and have been going since, it is everything i wanted and needed in a church - and none of the hate you have experienced - if it had been i would have been walking out the door before I went in (id be leaving so fast ;) )
As it turns out I couldnt have picked a better church for myself if Id been to every church in the country.... God knows us better than we know ourselves and he will sort these things if needed (or just asked).

So if you have met christians who are not promoting the love of god as the bible does or who just dont feel right to you, please dont give up on god or christianity because of that. Just keep looking elsewhere for the people and church that is right for you.
And if all else fails (or like me you are lazy) put it to god to find you the church he knows is right for you.

So try not to judge or hate back when confronted with judgement and hate - but at the same time dont ever accept them just because they were preached by someone claiming to be a christian. trust your own feelings, - and at the same time talk to god and ask him for the gift of discernment on the situation - or to remove you from it if necessary.
 
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kimmyh51

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Firstly I have two important questions, the first being why you need proof to disprove God first. I know you understand my point already but I don’t think you have answered why you will believe in God until you are satisfied he does not exist and not the other way around?

While the above is perfectly reasonable I would suggest logically - this:

If someone walked up to me in the street and offered me something valuable - given to me for free - all i had to do was acknowledge that person....

Would I accept my freebie (I can always dump it later if its not that good) or would I waste my time researching the validity of the giver?

Christianity is based on a free gift of eternal life (among other things) as a gift.

So logically - you can
1:accept it as it is (knowing you will always be free to reject it later if you try it and it isnt for you)

Or you can
2:reject it till it is 'proven'

If you take option 1 and you are wrong. You will have to say .bugger, got that one totally wrong i did - wasted all those sundays in church, and my singing voice is still crap after all those hymms..... now i am going to flag all that and go out and do (whatever) knowing its not for me

If you take option 2 and you are wrong
you will not be going 'bugger, got that one wrong didnt it...." because you wont be around any more.

So logically it makes no sense to do as you advise. People seem to forget that to become a christian requires no sacrifice on our part at all. We really can try it out for free. And I understand why people feel that way - as I did myself for 38 years of my life "what if i became a christian and it sucked, or it was wrong...?" never considering - what if? then stop being one if that happens - problem solved!

As a person with a university education, working in a very logical (it does not exist till its proven to) field, (incidentally so many Christians I know are also in science/technology etc at senior and technically demanding levels)

Surely anyone who looks at the complex structure of even the most simple cell (never mind the mind boggling mathematical precision behind the human genome) and who then ponders the entirety of the world just happening by chance from a " big bang" or a pile of especially reactant mud - can see how ludicrous the evolution theory is? (as I read somewhere - its akin to expecting an explosion in a print shop to produce the oxford dictionary)

Personally - the more I learn about the massive complexity of the human being, the world we live in, the other life forms, the way it all balances and fits together in such a statistically unlikely balance -combined with the likelyhood of life as we now know it just happening by accident - without any intelligent being actually guiding and controlling the process - that all this, could just happen, from the beauty of the oceans and mountains, to the perfection of dna. To decide this happened by accident and not plan, is in itself pretty unrealistic to me. To decide that this is fact 'until convinced otherwise' is beyond strange and irrational.

So I would put to the person who'se post I am quoting, that you try - just to see where you end up - assuming that the non-existence of god is the unproven falsehood. Then go about proving it - preferably by producing valid evidence of some alternative - and let us know where you end up?
 
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Personally - Id evaluate that the same way Id evaluate anyones potentially being crazy

if they are acting crazy, looking crazy, doing crazy etc ....
clip_image001.gif


However as a christian, I would then (hopefully - if I was having a good day in terms of keeping myself morally semi-upright) ask god to reveal to me what was going on with that person and what he wanted me to do (if anything)

Haha well maybe we need to agree what is sane first, before we can decide what is crazy. It is a difficult question really because everyone is crazy in their own ways. However, when does someone screaming that demons are trying to take over their lives and bodies, whilst angels tell them messages go too far? What is the right amount of delusion to hear voices in your head but not be a total wacko? Is there some kind of line we must be aware of like not saying “candy man” in the mirror three times, so if someone shouts about satan 27.6 times in an hour, lock em up? 25 is about normal in some churches, so 27.6 sounds about right? It just seems from an outside point of view, believing that a demon possessed a snake, that then convinced a woman, made from a rib of another man who was created (from clay) by God, to eat an apple is the reason that children are born with AIDs is off the scale of crazy I can usually get by with.


I think people tend to forget that just as he can and does in most other areas of human life, satan and his deception can also undermine christians. Some of the other stuff you mentioned in your post - I personally have been lucky to meet great christians and have not experienced that sort of attitude. But if I did, I would probably distance myself from a person or church that preached anything like that straight away (and maybe when I am a more experienced/better christian go back to them and try and save them lol)

Anyway the point I am trying to make is just because someone claims to be christian, or even additionally is ordained as a minister or whatever - this does NOT mean they are. They may be a christian who has been deceived into some ,legalistic viewpoints. Or they may not be a christian at all and simply there to deceive (or maybe just because they think it makes them look good to be in or leading a church)
I would also like to clarify that though I think/suspect there are sadly too many examples of churches where non biblical values are actioned - I am personally in no position to judge, so if confronted with that sort of thing personally - I would hope that I would simply ask god to reveal to me what was going on if he felt so inclined, but if he didnt or while waiting I would remove myself from that church and seek out one that I felt good about. However I wouldnt go and announce to them or others that they were 'not christians' etc. As I think that is totally judgemental and outside my understanding. I also know that I personally do many unchristian things on a regular basis, but i am sure i am saved - so its not for me to say that these people are not similar. Anyway - whether or not they are geniunely saved is not something that you need to concern yourself about - what matters is what they are preaching to you feels wrong, so you need to acknowledge that.
MY experience as a new christian a year ago was when looking for a church I couldnt find one (by googling local churches) that felt right - plus i was making excuses cos I was too scared to go into one on a sunday.
clip_image002.gif


So I looked a few times, went to none then said in my head to god, "ok i give up cant find one that looks right or appealing, you find me one".
2 days later I was treasurehunted by a couple of people - so went to their church and have been going since, it is everything i wanted and needed in a church - and none of the hate you have experienced - if it had been i would have been walking out the door before I went in (id be leaving so fast
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)
As it turns out I couldnt have picked a better church for myself if Id been to every church in the country.... God knows us better than we know ourselves and he will sort these things if needed (or just asked).

So if you have met christians who are not promoting the love of god as the bible does or who just dont feel right to you, please dont give up on god or christianity because of that. Just keep looking elsewhere for the people and church that is right for you.
And if all else fails (or like me you are lazy) put it to god to find you the church he knows is right for you.

So try not to judge or hate back when confronted with judgement and hate - but at the same time dont ever accept them just because they were preached by someone claiming to be a christian. trust your own feelings, - and at the same time talk to god and ask him for the gift of discernment on the situation - or to remove you from it if necessary.

You sound like a really nice person, so I would vouch you knew what kind of church you wanted before you became very familiar with the Bible. What I mean is, you already had a pre-conceived idea of what being good is, so if you went to a church preaching hate from the Bible you would know it was wrong, even if what they said was in the Bible in black and white. So you are right, calling yourself a Christian doesn’t make you one but neither is one interpretation of the Bible more true than the other, as it will be your own personal interpretation that is true to you in the end. I completely dispute the claim that people need faith to be moral though, that is what I am trying to say about you choosing a good church as you are a good person. A bad person would be more comfortable in a bad church.
I suppose what I should really be emphasising by my point that there are many haters in the Christian community, is that it seems many are happier to have bad Christians than no Christian at all. A bad Christian is still more acceptable than homosexuals, atheists or other faiths to some people. Which does seem strange, but that is a different matter.
But like I said I think you seem a nice person, so please tell me what you personally feel about homosexuality? As a Christian you know what the Bible says, but do you really believe that they can’t really have a proper relationship and this other nonsense people have said in this thread alone? I really hope you don’t prove me wrong, but I am guessing on my first assumptions that you are probably not against homosexuality and don’t see it as a sinful choice people make.
 
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kimmyh51

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Haha well maybe we need to agree what is sane first, before we can decide what is crazy. It is a difficult question really because everyone is crazy in their own ways. However, when does someone screaming that demons are trying to take over their lives and bodies, whilst angels tell them messages go too far? What is the right amount of delusion to hear voices in your head but not be a total wacko? Is there some kind of line we must be aware of like not saying “candy man” in the mirror three times/QUOTE]

LOL yes if you say candyman 3 times its all over (haven't you seen the movies???? big scary dude appears when least expected and butchers you with a meat hook.... or butchers your mates and leaves you to take the fall - either way not good...:help:

Seriously - how to decide if a person is sane or crazy is waaaay outside my own expertise. If I were in a situation where I had to make that determination for some reason - then I would ask god. One thing I have found really handy (and kinda cool) is this little like game I sometimes put to god

i will go ok, I think that you are want me to do this, or I think you have plans for so and so, or i think you have been trying to tell me this.

So I would ask you now (in jesus name) to give me a message about this, and I am going to look around at signs on buildings, cars etc, for any phrases that relate to this or stand out to me.

Ive done that on several occasions (when praying about it I was alone so did not risk being thought the nutbar myself)
anyway after doing that I would just look around at my surroundings (each time I did it i was going somewhere so they were changing - if driving id assume god isnt going to show you the meaning of life on the side of a truck on the other side of the motorway so that you have to look away from your own driving and end up in a crash - just look at vehicles near you that you can see without looking away from the road in front of you :) )

anyway - each time i have done it - the results - while i am sure you could argue were ones I just wanted to believe were meaningful and therefore made them that - were uncannily specific to the topic. the first time was about my dad - on a plane browsing the inflight mag - I was flicking through the titles (only ) of articles and ads, and 3 popped up straight away, one which had the first name of the person i was asking about in it (their name is not common and i have never seen it in the title of any article anywhere before or since)
 
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While the above is perfectly reasonable I would suggest logically - this:

If someone walked up to me in the street and offered me something valuable - given to me for free - all i had to do was acknowledge that person....

Would I accept my freebie (I can always dump it later if its not that good) or would I waste my time researching the validity of the giver?

Christianity is based on a free gift of eternal life (among other things) as a gift.

So logically - you can
1:accept it as it is (knowing you will always be free to reject it later if you try it and it isnt for you)

Or you can
2:reject it till it is 'proven'

If you take option 1 and you are wrong. You will have to say .bugger, got that one totally wrong i did - wasted all those sundays in church, and my singing voice is still crap after all those hymms..... now i am going to flag all that and go out and do (whatever) knowing its not for me

If you take option 2 and you are wrong
you will not be going 'bugger, got that one wrong didnt it...." because you wont be around any more.

So logically it makes no sense to do as you advise. People seem to forget that to become a christian requires no sacrifice on our part at all. We really can try it out for free. And I understand why people feel that way - as I did myself for 38 years of my life "what if i became a christian and it sucked, or it was wrong...?" never considering - what if? then stop being one if that happens - problem solved!

I see how you reason this way, but I have answered a similar idea in this thread already. You are describing a classic argument called ‘Pacal’s wager’, but the mistake made is that you are assuming there are only two options to choose from 1. The Christian God or 2. No God. If you factor in that God might be married as stated in earlier versions on the Bible, the many other religions being true or the idea you are interpretation scripture incorrectly then it doesn’t seem such a safe bet after all. In fact, when you then include that to believe in this God en masse then education must be controlled to exclude that which doesn’t agree with the church, the many wars, the murders and hatred then it seems a much safer bet to not be religious and to all just get along. The simple fact that religion is the number one reason for global warming being denied is a scary enough fact, since we aren’t exactly living a sustainable lifestyle and ignoring that isn’t wise, or a gamble worth taking. Also, not all religious people are as happy as you are, many live in constant anxiety about hell, many children are disowned and many women are forced into following certain rituals and traditions. Many gay Christians live their lives feeling dirty as well as children just finding church really bloody boring, they could be out being kids (there are so many ways to injure yourself it seems silly to sit on a bench all morning).


As a person with a university education, working in a very logical (it does not exist till its proven to) field, (incidentally so many Christians I know are also in science/technology etc at senior and technically demanding levels)

Surely anyone who looks at the complex structure of even the most simple cell (never mind the mind boggling mathematical precision behind the human genome) and who then ponders the entirety of the world just happening by chance from a " big bang" or a pile of especially reactant mud - can see how ludicrous the evolution theory is? (as I read somewhere - its akin to expecting an explosion in a print shop to produce the oxford dictionary)

Personally - the more I learn about the massive complexity of the human being, the world we live in, the other life forms, the way it all balances and fits together in such a statistically unlikely balance -combined with the likelyhood of life as we now know it just happening by accident - without any intelligent being actually guiding and controlling the process - that all this, could just happen, from the beauty of the oceans and mountains, to the perfection of dna. To decide this happened by accident and not plan, is in itself pretty unrealistic to me. To decide that this is fact 'until convinced otherwise' is beyond strange and irrational.

So I would put to the person who'se post I am quoting, that you try - just to see where you end up - assuming that the non-existence of god is the unproven falsehood. Then go about proving it - preferably by producing valid evidence of some alternative - and let us know where you end up?

I can tell you have spoken with a few creationists. The thing about creationists, is they never seem to understand what they are so strongly suggesting cannot be true. The explosion in a print shop thing is new, I usually hear ‘like a bomb in a scrapyard building a jumbo jet’ but it is only based on a lack of education and understanding of how evolution works. The complexity of life as it is now just happening is not what evolution is arguing, that is more fitting to the God hypothesis (not theory). Evolution explains the step-by-step NON RANDOM selection of life, subject to natural selection over hundreds of millions of years. I won’t describe everything as it will take too long, but if you read ‘The selfish gene’ that will probably tell you everything you need to know. But once you understand how evolution works (things like a single cell actually being a mutually co-operating group of simpler entities, such as mitochondria even having their own DNA), the idea that it would require a guiding hand of a super being is ridiculous and statistically impossible for all intents and purposes. You are educated and mentioned genes, so you must understand how they mutate and are passed on to the next generation, as do all animal breeders and farmers. The domestic dog is a great example because if you did not know all breeds were descended from wolves you could argue that God created a dog to suit anyone and possibly find it impossible to believe they are all almost genetically identical. But it is merely that human selection works fast than natural selection because we can select with the foresight of what we are breeding for, whereas evolution guided by natural selection is blind to the future and therefore is slow and very inefficient with most species and mutations dying out. A God described in the Bible could create life without all of this waste, so that seems odd.
But I certainly agree the world is a wonderful and amazing place we can all appreciate. But I think the reason we find something beautiful isn’t as simple as ‘because it is beautiful’ and not a sign of creation. After all we all appreciate different things, I personally find insects to be very pretty where many are disgusted. But deeper than that, we have evolved to find certain things appealing, but that is another tedious explanation that isn’t really that important right now. But as one final point, instead of thinking that the world is just too precise, everything fits just too perfectly. Have you ever though that we fit so perfectly because we have evolved to fit this environment? It really does make sense you know.
 
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Haha well maybe we need to agree what is sane first, before we can decide what is crazy. It is a difficult question really because everyone is crazy in their own ways. However, when does someone screaming that demons are trying to take over their lives and bodies, whilst angels tell them messages go too far? What is the right amount of delusion to hear voices in your head but not be a total wacko? Is there some kind of line we must be aware of like not saying “candy man” in the mirror three times/QUOTE]

LOL yes if you say candyman 3 times its all over (haven't you seen the movies???? big scary dude appears when least expected and butchers you with a meat hook.... or butchers your mates and leaves you to take the fall - either way not good...
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Seriously - how to decide if a person is sane or crazy is waaaay outside my own expertise. If I were in a situation where I had to make that determination for some reason - then I would ask god. One thing I have found really handy (and kinda cool) is this little like game I sometimes put to god

i will go ok, I think that you are want me to do this, or I think you have plans for so and so, or i think you have been trying to tell me this.

So I would ask you now (in jesus name) to give me a message about this, and I am going to look around at signs on buildings, cars etc, for any phrases that relate to this or stand out to me.

Ive done that on several occasions (when praying about it I was alone so did not risk being thought the nutbar myself)
anyway after doing that I would just look around at my surroundings (each time I did it i was going somewhere so they were changing - if driving id assume god isnt going to show you the meaning of life on the side of a truck on the other side of the motorway so that you have to look away from your own driving and end up in a crash - just look at vehicles near you that you can see without looking away from the road in front of you
clip_image002.gif
)

anyway - each time i have done it - the results - while i am sure you could argue were ones I just wanted to believe were meaningful and therefore made them that - were uncannily specific to the topic. the first time was about my dad - on a plane browsing the inflight mag - I was flicking through the titles (only ) of articles and ads, and 3 popped up straight away, one which had the first name of the person i was asking about in it (their name is not common and i have never seen it in the title of any article anywhere before or since)

The three times thing is definitely legit, please don’t risk your life for the sake of finding out. I am also very suspicious of mice, but that is a different story.

What I mean about the crazy thing is that you for example, sound sane. You are looking around for signs, and you are right I do believe you saw what you wanted to believe. Not to batter the point but I could say that my praying mantis gives me advice (I do have a mantis, he seldom gives advice worth taking) and that I should look out for a stranger offering me a gift. Now eventually that will happen, but I am not going to pray to my mantis (he would probably think I was just mocking him). Or a better example is the psychic/medium industry that make millions convincing people they can do the same, but it never works on sceptics for some impossible reason. God used to be far cooler when making a point, he didn’t dick about making people notice names (unless your dad is called Beetus McFiddius Van Sniggles which would make the odds of divinity more plausible) he would set stuff on fire and make donkeys talk. I for one, am disappointed. Thanks for the safety advice too, when looking for messages my eyes will be fixed to the road, although if God was trying to send me proof of some kind I would hope he would save me from the crash too (although not if it was a plane crash, I think it is a bit distasteful to thank God for saving them when hundreds of other have just died, as if God decided to not let them live).

Anyway I would just ask you to pray for a sign again, asking what my middle name is. If you can guess it, you win. Or just pray as usual but try and also remember the times nothing happens, you can conclude for yourself if that means anything at all.
 
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brinny

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Hello. I have been away for a while after all of my questions had been answered, but I have been prompted again recently. I keep coming across a lot of what I can only describe as hatred from many Christians, which to me seems incompatible with what I would imagine Jesus would preach.

Some of the main areas are:

1. The main topics that generally revolve around women, have a strong mysgyonistic attitude towards rape and the rights of rape victims.

"'it must have been God's will for her to be raped' and recommended that she attend church more frequently."" Quoted from a chaplain

2. Homosexuals seem to be classed as sub-human, immoral monsters that choose to be gay. If I remember correctly, the subject is actually forbidden on this forum, are you ashamed of what God wants? Can we please discuss this in a civil way?

"Say what you will but homosexuals are not even human. They are diseased, degenerate creatures who mock humans. The goal that they will freely admit to is to erase any trace of decency or humanity from the planet until we are all wallowing in filth and disease like them. If you are religous at all you recognize that this is the work of satan and that they have no souls, just lust for each other"


3. Atheists being thought of as having no morals is also a common theme

"Could atheists talk themselves into anything? The methodical erosion of ones values and morals can be so damaging, to the point that it's acceptable that"Atheists eat babies."

An atheist may still be moral and say murder and rape are wrong: but when asked why, they will not have a final reason or authority to which they can appeal."




Now to the insanity, how do you know if a Christian has crossed the line and are infact, crazy? If someone started speaking to me about demons I would question if they were playing with a full deck...

"Leviathon is a spirit I have battled as well. It was a hard battle but was won. It was about four months or more ago. My wife and I were in McDonalds and were having a conversation with an angel and Leviathon had come up. I told the angel that i wanted to fight this demon and he said I could. On the way back to the hotel I asked the angel if he could bring the demon to a predestinated place and he said yes. I figured that since Leviathon was from the depths of the sea he would be used to the cold water so I filled the tub up with scalding hot water and blessed the water. The angels (there were two now) brought Leviathon bound to the tub and fought with me. We all pulled our swords from our hips and began running this demon through with all my strength and everything I had. I would say it took atleast half an hour or more. We were all spent but the battle was won."



My question is how can anyone be so hateful and still proclaim to be a loving Christian? Why are 'heathens' hated and not loved with conversion attempted? Why do you care if one man is a homosexual, why can't they just be left to do what they want and why can't God handle this on his own? Why is it only Christians (or Muslims) that state that homosexuality is a choice, whilst everyone else agrees that it is not? I could not choose to find a man attractive, it repulses me the same way it repulses a homosexual to imagine being with a woman. It seems they are hated for being 'unnatural' whilst your entire religion worships those that prove to be as unnatural as possible ie supernatural!

I mean no offence to any individual, but I am sick of people like the Pope preaching hatred, it does nothing to help the world.

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.
 
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