"Christian churches have lost their way ...."

[Caretaker]

The title of this thread is taken from the below quote by retired Baptist minister Howard Bess.

"Christian churches have lost their way seeking social acceptability and comfort for the elite. In the process they have claimed the presence of their Christ in a cup of juice and a bite of bread. The distortion is disastrous. The need for Christians to take a new look at Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings is urgent." -- Howard Bess

The full article can be found here: https://consortiumnews.com/2015/06/03/an-urgent-reassessment-of-jesus/

While Howard Bess is not one of my favorite authors, the article at the above link in some aspects restates complaints of early Anabaptists regarding the mainstream religions of their day.

Unfortunately, it seems that today these same complaints might be relevant to many of today's Anabaptist churches and their members.

I'm hoping this article will stimulate some introspection and discussion.

 

[muddleglum]

The title of this thread is taken from the below quote by retired Baptist minister Howard Bess.

"Christian churches have lost their way seeking social acceptability and comfort for the elite. In the process they have claimed the presence of their Christ in a cup of juice and a bite of bread. The distortion is disastrous. The need for Christians to take a new look at Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings is urgent." -- Howard Bess

I'm hoping this article will stimulate some introspection and discussion.

You are kidding, aren't you? In depth this is just a bit of... well, this is what informs me:

Authors of the Greek narratives of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote decades later. They used original Jesus materials – passed down through oral tradition from the Aramaic that Jesus spoke – but put them into a completely different context. In the process, they gave meanings to Jesus’s teachings that he never intended or would have accepted.​

After reading that, why should we care what else Bess wrote? He doesn't even seem to believe Jesus is divine. I've seen atheist's writings on the same level and wouldn't care to hand, say, Karl Marx to any of my brethren, though he wrote much the same way as Bess who also said,
"The earthly ministry of Jesus was not about the saving of souls for an eternal heaven. "

 

[Caretaker]

God can and does use imperfect people to suit his purposes. Only Jesus walked the earth in perfection.

What struck me about Reverend Bess's statement is that it mirrors the complaints of early Anabaptists about the churches of their day.

But it also mirrors the following statement by Titus Peachey, MCC U.S. Peace and Justice Co-Secretary.

"In comfortable settings, the gospel is often spiritualized to the extent that it helps us avoid responsibility for our neighbor's oppression." -- Titus Peachey, pp April 13, "366 Ways to Peace", Herald Press, Scottdale, PA 1999

Will you also not discuss this issue because perhaps you might find fault with Titus Peachey?

If so, then consider the following.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

It seems to me the above statement is also along these same lines.

So, returning to the thought I expressed in my opening post, I'm hoping that these quotes will stimulate some introspection and discussion.

 

[muddleglum]

What struck me about Reverend Bess's statement is that it mirrors the complaints of early Anabaptists about the churches of their day.

Only in a vague, general way, after sweeping Christ's deity away. If Jesus is just a man, then who cares about His opinion. If you want to bring up something in an anabaptist forum, please remember that we are Christians, not antichrists.

But it also mirrors the following statement by Titus Peachey, MCC U.S. Peace and Justice Co-Secretary.

"In comfortable settings, the gospel is often spiritualized to the extent that it helps us avoid responsibility for our neighbor's oppression." -- Titus Peachey, pp April 13, "366 Ways to Peace", Herald Press, Scottdale, PA 1999

So, what was the context of his remarks? And, BTW, 1999 isn't quite the same era "of early Anabaptists." Would you like to bring up some quotes from the early anabaptists?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

It seems to me the above statement is also along these same lines.

It seems to you? Your first line is that Jesus was merely a man, and your second line had been ripped from its context so severely that I cannot figure out what Mr. Peachy is talking about.

So, returning to the thought I expressed in my opening post, I'm hoping that these quotes will stimulate some introspection and discussion.

Do you even know the Gospel of Jesus Christ? What is it? If you don't know, then that is the first thing we should discuss.

 

[Albion]

I'm not a member here but the title of your thread just caught my eye. I was prepared, as I began to read the text, to agree wholeheartedly that many churches of today have lost their way by accommodating the desires of the world, etc. but then to read...

....In the process they have claimed the presence of their Christ in a cup of juice and a bite of bread. The distortion is disastrous....

It's supposed to be due to those churches claiming the presence of Christ in the communion elements! Really? I think most of us can give a long list of reasons why many churches have lost their way before we'd get to that one, and this is irrespective of one's view of the Lord's Supper.

 

[muddleglum]

I'm not a member here but the title of your thread just caught my eye. I was prepared, as I began to read the text, to agree wholeheartedly that many churches of today have lost their way by accommodating the desires of the world, etc. but then to read...

It's supposed to be due to those churches claiming the presence of Christ in the communion elements! Really? I think most of us can give a long list of reasons why many churches have lost their way before we'd get to that one, and this is irrespective of one's view of the Lord's Supper.

It's even worse than you thought. I'm guessing the person quoting Bess isn't even a Christian, but an atheist preaching socialism. If you read that URL Caretaker provides to Bess' essay, you'll discover Bess is an antichrist. Not good. At least that quote would make more sense to you now.

Of course, even back in the time of the Apostles we see that some Christian churches have lost their way. Quick now, which church back then was the earliest and how did it lose its way.

 

[Albion]

It's even worse than you thought. I'm guessing the person quoting Bess isn't even a Christian, but an atheist preaching socialism...Of course, even back in the time of the Apostles we see that some Christian churches have lost their way. Quick now, which church back then was the earliest and how did it lose its way.

Since you ask me, I suppose it's all right for me to answer, but I have no idea what you have in mind with that question. I do appreciate the additional comments about Bess, however.

 

[muddleglum]

Since you ask me, I suppose it's all right for me to answer, but I have no idea what you have in mind with that question.

You earlier said, "Really? I think most of us can give a long list of reasons why many churches have lost their way before we'd get to that one..." and I thought I would just support you. It started early and for various reasons.

 

[Albion]

You earlier said, "Really? I think most of us can give a long list of reasons why many churches have lost their way before we'd get to that one..." and I thought I would just support you. It started early and for various reasons.

Ah.

 

[Caretaker]

Your first line is that Jesus was merely a man,

?? Please point out where I posted that, because I don't think I posted any such thing.

 

[muddleglum]

?? Please point out where I posted that, because I don't think I posted any such thing.

I wrote in context:
"Your first line is that Jesus was merely a man, and your second line had been ripped from its context so severely that I cannot figure out what Mr. Peachy is talking about."
Note that "second line"? It should have nudged you that I was speaking of figurative lines. You led off with the essay of Bess, which is based on the idea that Jesus was merely a man. Led off could also be considered a metaphor. But, with both "led off" and "line" before you, I hope you can see what I meant now.

 

[Caretaker]

You seem to want to equate me with Reverend Bess, a man I started out by saying is not one of my favorite authors. I in no way am endorsing either everything Reverend Bess ever said, nor everything he said in the article. On what basis do you presume I do?

How about we focus on what I asked this thread to be about, that is the following statement by Bess:

"Christian churches have lost their way seeking social acceptability and comfort for the elite." in light of the early Anabaptists' rejection of the established churches of their day.

The scripture I cited and the quote from Titus Peachey can be viewed as supporting material.

Thanks!

 

[NewCreation17]

This to me is what many people looking to Christ have not been told in the churches.

I have spoken to Christians today who tell me that sin is unavoidable because we are in this flesh, that it's impossible to live free from.

Everything the Holy Spirit has taught me in scripture and done in my life is opposite of the above comments. I do not know what people are teaching today around the world, but i know that i will be judged based on what i know and what i tell people. And if i speak not in love and meekness than i have accomplished nothing. All of this is in love and for someone who believes on Jesus Christ but can not seem to break free from sin. This was my life for 20 years, but now its time to voice the truth, and the truth is GOD's word.


1 John 3:8-9, says
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

And the apostle John plainly tells us that those who are in Christ Jesus are born of GOD.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of
God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
will of man, but of God.

You are born of GOD if you believe on Jesus Christ according to John 1:12-13 and filled with the Holy Spirit!(John 7:38-39).
John says that if you are born of GOD you do not commit sin. How can this be?
By the power of the Holy Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh....

Romans 8:8 “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:13 " 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The "power" in John 1:12-13 is the Holy Ghost given by GOD to those that believe on the name of Jesus Christ and repent :

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

Before the Holy Spirit comes in we can not live holy nor free of sin because the power to break free from sin which worketh in our flesh is the Holy Ghost!

That is why in Romans 7 Paul explained that before Christ he could never do the things he wanted, but his flesh had dominion over him, and his flesh always served sin, never GOD.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The very next chapter explains that Christ Jesus has not only redeemed us to GOD by His blood and paid the sacrifice for our sins washing us, but has given us a way to break free and truly live free from sin by the "promise & power to those that believe on Him as the scripture hath said" the Holy Spirit!

Romans 8:8 “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:13 " 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Very lastly before anyone gets the wrong idea, GOD is merciful unto us, and if any man sin, if you have the mind to repent GOD will forgive you in Christ Jesus.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Finally if you are reading this, AND ALREADY BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST AS THE SCRIPTURES HATH SAID and know you are living in sin, and have the question whether you have been filled with the Holy Spirit,
do this
1. Repent again and ask GOD to fill you. (repent=you have godly sorrow and truly want to never commit sin again if only you had the power.(the Holy Ghost)..)
OR
2. Ask GOD to confirm His presence in you. ( i spoke in tongues and felt the Holy Ghost come in, it was a real spiritual experience.)

How to be filled?
1. Believe on Jesus as the scripture hath said.
2. Repent of all your sins and ask for forgiveness, (truly repent)
3. Ask the Father to fill you in Jesus name!

(supporting scripture)

John 7:38-39
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


You must believe on the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and fully believe the gospel of Jesus Christ as the scriptures hath said and repent.
Also, give up anything in your life you are putting before GOD, that can keep you from being filled. (personal testimony of a brother in my church who idolized/loved his car way too much, and was forced to sell it for financial reasons, and after was filled with the Holy Ghost and confirmed by speaking in tongues.)

(p.s. Paul told the Jews in Acts chapter 2 to be baptized only in Jesus name because they were Jews and knew who the one true GOD was and already believed in the trinity, they only had a problem believing on Jesus Christ. But for Gentiles, we were without GOD in the world and needed to believe on all three of the trinity, since we had no idea who the one true GOD was and is, don't be confused as to why Jesus told the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, The son and the Holy Ghost in Matthew 28:19 , this was for all nations who knew not GOD yet, the Jews already believed on the true and living GOD. Some had an issue believing on Jesus Christ at that time.)

 

[Caretaker]

OK, but I don't think I saw in your post any response to the questions in the OP and in my second post.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The title of this thread is taken from the below quote by retired Baptist minister Howard Bess.

"Christian churches have lost their way seeking social acceptability and comfort for the elite. In the process they have claimed the presence of their Christ in a cup of juice and a bite of bread. The distortion is disastrous. The need for Christians to take a new look at Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings is urgent." -- Howard Bess

The full article can be found here: https://consortiumnews.com/2015/06/03/an-urgent-reassessment-of-jesus/

While Howard Bess is not one of my favorite authors, the article at the above link in some aspects restates complaints of early Anabaptists regarding the mainstream religions of their day.

Unfortunately, it seems that today these same complaints might be relevant to many of today's Anabaptist churches and their members.

I'm hoping this article will stimulate some introspection and discussion.

'stimulate' / hopefully to prayer and seeking God's Kingdom directly, today.

I haven't found an Anabaptist (nor the earlier Waldensian) assembly yet that is holding to the
faith they were put to death for in the early centuries. (Nor practically any official group at all - only groups of persecuted believers around the world in every country that follow Jesus wherever He goes, every day, subjecting every part of their life to Him as it is written in His Word).

I did see a while back (year(s) ago) online that an (apparently) Waldensian representative gave up the faith in Jesus, or never had it in the first place, in order to receive money or worldly approval or whatever.

 

[Basil the Great]

Suffice it to say that virtually all of the churches have made compromises since the days of the 1st Century Christians, especially in terms of accepting divorce and remarriage.

 

[Caretaker]

Suffice it to say that virtually all of the churches have made compromises since the days of the 1st Century Christians, especially in terms of accepting divorce and remarriage.

???

Ummmm .... Jesus and Paul accepted divorce and remarriage in certain circumstances (Matthew 19:9 and 1 Corinthians 7:15).

 

[Rescued One]

Basil, I take it, is not an Anabaptist. Otherwise, it would seem that we have disagreement between conservative (no remarriage allowed if one is divorced) and liberal Mennonites (divorce and remarriage allowed).

 

[Caretaker]

Basil, I take it, is not an Anabaptist. Otherwise, it would seem that we have disagreement between conservative (no remarriage allowed if one is divorced) and liberal Mennonites (divorce and remarriage allowed).

The problem is introduced when people try to substitute their own judgment, wishes, and desires for the Word of God.

 

[Righttruth]

"Christian churches have lost their way seeking social acceptability and comfort for the elite. In the process they have claimed the presence of their Christ in a cup of juice and a bite of bread. The distortion is disastrous. The need for Christians to take a new look at Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings is urgent." -- Howard Bess

Is it because communion is based on Paul's advise of a frequent ritual instead of its spiritual significance as pointed out in John 6?