Christ is the end of the Law, no more OT?

[Rainie]

Apollo,
Go back and read over your post to me.
Sincerely, with the heart, eyes, mind of Messiah.

We are "Believers" in Him and this is going way off the tracks of where He would want us.

You say things to me like "for those who really know, this is disingenuous babble, disingenuous rhetoric, baloney"

You've only JUST met me!

You even call me AN IDOL WORSHIPPER in this section....

"Your disingenuous replies along with non-contextual answers from scripture manifest the errant position you have taken. Give up your idol (the old law, and probably, its Sabbath day as well) and come to Christ."

You rejoice in laughing at me and what you perceive to be my failures in doctrine and you do ALL of these things in one single POST.

Your posts are dripping with sarcasm, arrogance, disrespect, judgement and cruelty toward me and sadly I thought about responding likewise to you.

Tell me Apollo, tell the people here...

Do you know where I was born?
Do you know if I've watched the carnage of Cancer?
Do you know if I'm an orphan?
Do you know if I suffer from depression?
Do you know if I'm rich or poor?
Do you know if I bite my nails, smoke or drink?
Do you know if I suffer myself from a disease?
Do you even know my REAL NAME?

No... you do not.
Nor do I know these things about you.

So how is it that you can say to me "give up your idol" and proceed to say that the "Old Law" and the Sabbath Day are my idols...
As if I replace them for Messiah?

How is it that you can call we an "idol worshipper."
When you don't even know my name.

Now, I have addressed most of your questions, you do not like my answers and you belittle me the whole way through your rational...

Trust me, I get that! I hear your disgust with me LOUD and clear!

Be honest with me please, because when I respond to you I really do put effort into it.
Do you really care what I have to say?
If not, respect me enough to tell me that I'm just waisting time, discussing with you.

In writing this, I know you might once again choose to laugh at me for what I belive and respond with "I figured" or something of the sort but God knows my heart toward you and I will rest in that.

If you are not through talking with me and you would like to continue.
Then let's cut back on the sarcasm, laughter, judgement etc.
Let's really do as the Master states and treat each other as we ourselves would like to be treated... I know you know what I mean.

If this is not possible... Then, let us part ways in peace.

I'm up for starting fresh, if you are.
Blessings-Rain

 

[Rainie]

I was saying once you have the fruit . you no longer need the dry seeds . I recall Paul writing in one of his letters that he was all things to all people . and even was as under the law to those under the law so that some might be saved .

this is important to note also . since Paul was a Jew he could use that to communicate to Jews.

I see what you are saying but I don't think I can agree.

When Paul says that:
1 Corinthians 9:19-22 (New King James Version)
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Paul is not advocating hypocrisy, in order to save people.

I'm 99% sure you would agree with me on this:
Paul is not advocating that to win over the drunk one needs to drink a beer with the achoholic.
To when over the legalist one needs to "pretend" to be a legalist as well.
To when over the Adulterer one must cheat on their wives.
To when over the Pagan one must drink blood and chant the chants.

You can come alongside these people and testify of the TRUTH of Messiah with out sinning.

Love the sinner... Hate the sin.

I don't believe Paul is advocating that people "pretend" to be what they are not in order SAVE people.

This is not even true Salvation, it is however, DECEPTION.


Blessings-- Rain

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Its alright . you can think that . but that's how Paul rolled .

He would be all things to all people . and people would see grace in that and some would be saved . and some would remain under the law .

the way the pharisees interpreted the law was as a result of their sin .

so the interpretation method no matter how widespread it was .

it was still wrong .

and still is today .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Why do those under the law need to be won?

 

[Rainie]

Why do those under the law need to be won?

Simple yet AWESOME question...
Please bear with me through the end.

Because to be,

"Under the Law" is to believe that it IS the Law that justifies.

"Under grace" is to believe that GRACE justifies.

Anyone who believes that they will be saved by their works is sadly mistaken. Works apart from faith mean zilch.

I have a friend for instance who is not a believer, I don't know if she's a Jew or a Gentile by birth but she openly rejects that Jesus is the "ONLY WAY..."

She believes that she will get into heaven... Not because of Jesus but because she's sought to live a good and honorable life. .

There are Jews who think this way and there are Gentiles who think this way and sadly I have even known Christians who have stated similiar logic...
Oh, don't worry about me, I do well, I love my neighbor, I give to charity, I have never cheated on my spouse and my kids are going to Bible College, I think that speaks for itself... With a hearty slap on the back.

Our works can't save, whether Jew, Gentile, Christian etc...
Works NEVER saved apart from faith... NEVER

Those who are "under The Law" therefore can be won, into freedom, from thinking obedience and living a "good life" can save them apart from a SAVING FAITH in Messiah as the ONLY WAY.

Our best deeds are as filthy rags.

Confession that Messiah is LORD and SAVIOR is our only hope.

Please hear me...
I don't keep the Law to be Saved...
I don't keep the Law to earn favor...
I don't keep the Law to ensure my Salvation...
I was SAVED in FULL at the age of 10 sitting on my bed, broken.
That day I confessed that Jesus was my ONLY HOPE for Salvation and I asked HIM indwell me, to TEACH ME and to LEAD ME and on that day...
I found my Best Friend .

So why do I keep the Law then?
I keep the Law because Messiah did PERFECTLY and STILL does... and I LOVE HIM, I APPRECIATE HIM & TRUST HIM, THAT HE WOULD NOT KEEP A LAW HIMSELF THAT WOULD DOOM ME.

And OVERALL!
I trust that when I fail at keeping the Law (aka sin) AND I DO FAIL, hourly if not MORE!!!!!!!!
I trust that in my depths of my failure, Messiah's forgiveness covers me, just like it covers EVERYONE ELSE who sincerely believes in His redemption.

Perhaps you can help me with this...????

Why is it, that when I confess that I FIRST AND FOREMOST I believe in Messiah and His saving GRACE and forgiveness of my sin and that I ALSO, Keep the Law, from a heart of LOVE to honor Him and the life He lived.

That so many of my fellow believers in Christ react so... worried, judgemental or offended?

Why am I greeted with "that's impossible, you're doomed, you're under mining GOD'S grace, your spitting in Messiah's face, you are dishonoring the cross, your'e not speaking the words of the Master, you're not listening to His voice" etc.

Where does Scripture state that a man or woman can not HAVE FAITH and OBEDIENCE?

Are MESSIAH BELIEVING...
"LAW KEEPERS" less covered in their sin then the MESSIAH BELIEVING "LAW BREAKERS???"

I can not understand the logic of this.

You don't have to answer if you don't feel comfortable, I understand, but I hope you will "hear" what I'm saying...

You are no less covered by Christ's blood then I Michael.
He covers ALL who believe and place their faith in HIM.

Blessings and sleep well... In HIM,
Rainie

 

[RefrusRevlis]

Do as Paul says, not as he does? Then?

Why didn’t Paul preach from a hilltop, construct a church from wood or pop-up a tent outside the Synagogue and say meet with me in there, instead?

BTW,
The Jews aren’t like the MOB.

Paul became "all things to all men", he met them where they were.
1 Cor 9:
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some

It is not hypocritical for Paul to show sensitivity to the individual circumstances of the individuals he met. That is why he behaved the way he did towards the Jews. The important aspect to consider is that he never said that obedience to the Law of Moses was necessary for salvation. In fact he taught the contrary.

Gal 5
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


It is true that the Jews were never saved by perfect obedience to the law, just as Christians are not saved by perfect obedience. Salvation has always been by faith.

If Paul wanted to abandon GOD'S LAW and create a New Religion, he could have.

It was not Paul who created a new religion, it was Jesus. If Paul had done so he would have been breaking his own words:

Gal 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

IMO) The error in doctrine is this…
Christ NEVER claimed that His purpose in coming in the flesh, was to ABOLISH His Father’s commandments….
If I am incorrect and Christ DOES claim that He has come to rid the World, once and for all, of THE LAW (His Father’s Commands), please show where this is written and let’s discuss Christ’s words.

Okay let's look at the passage:
Matt 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

The word 'destroy' is in the Greek 'kataluo', Vines Dictionary says of this word:
kataluo (καταλύω, 2647), kata, “down,” intensive, and No. 4, “to destroy utterly, to overthrow completely,” is rendered “destroy,” in Matt. 5:17, twice, of the Law; Matt. 24:2; 26:61; 27:40; Mark 13:2; 14:58; 15:29; Luke 21:6, of the Temple; in Acts 6:14, of Jerusalem; in Gal. 2:18, of the Law as a means of justification; in Rom. 14:20 (kjv, “destroy,” rv, “overthrow”), of the marring of a person’s spiritual well-being (in v. 15 apollumi, No. 1, is used in the same sense); in Acts 5:38 and 39 (rv, “overthrow”) of the failure of purposes; in 2 Cor. 5:1, of the death of the body (“dissolved).

The idea is to overthrow or to destroy. Jesus did not come to overthrow or to break the law.

The Greek word for fulfill is pleroo:
pleroo (πληρόω, 4137), “to fulfill, to complete, carry out to the full” (as well as to fill), is translated “perfect” in Rev. 3:2, kjv; rv, “I have found no works of thine fulfilled before My God”; “accomplish” in Luke 9:31.
Jesus came to complete the Law.

Both overthrowing and completing the Law would have had the effect of rendering it no longer effective. Jesus is not saying that he would not be removing the law, what he is saying is that he would not be dismantling it, rather, he would be completing it.

Does this mean that adherence to Lev. 18:23 estranges the Gentile Believer from Christ’s grace?

Oh please. The New Testament clearly tells me that the behaviour outlined in Lev 18:23 is sinful and it is for that reason, (that it is in the New Testament) that it is binding upon me. The Old Testament says that I should not "suffer a witch to live" (Ex 22:18) and numerous other commandments which are not for today. Should I go around putting witches to death?

In the New Testament nine out of ten of the 'ten commandments' are repeated. The only one that isn't is to do with the keeping of the Sabbath and it is for this reason Sabbatarians try to argue for the continuation of the law of Moses in varying degrees in an attempt to justify sabbath keeping.

In fact the ten commandments were only for the Jews, the is seen in the preamble:

Exodus 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.​

I was never in Egypt, nor am I a part of the people who were. It does not apply to me.​

I disagree with your understanding.

That’s a heck of Bridegroom, don’t you think?

The Groom, delivered His Bride Israel out from under the whip of Pharoah and the bondage of Slavery...
Only to en-slave her in the desert to himself, as soon as the Groom could get her desperate and alone.​

YIKES... I DISAGREE.​

When Christ died, He freed us from SIN & DEATH.​

You have not dealt at all with the passage, so here it is again:
Romans 7
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law),

that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the


woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as


he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her


husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man,


she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from


that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another


man. ​

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the


law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—


to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to


God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were


aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to


death. ​

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to


what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the


Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.​

Israel was delivered from Egypt so that she could be freed from Pharaoh,


not sin. It was a part of God's plan so that after the passing of time,


Jesus could come. The law was "added because of transgression", it outlined a moral code, which nobody could keep, it confined all under sin​

Galatians 3:


Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there


had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness


would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all


under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to


those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard


by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be


revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that


we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no


longer under a tutor.​

The purpose of the law was to show sin to be sin, it was never meant to

be method whereby people could gain salvation by perfect observance. It was a tutor, to take us to Christ. Since Christ has come, there is no need for the Law, the tutor.​

Your right, the Law can’t save or justify… It NEVER did Rufus, it NEVER could!

And I have NEVER told anyone to “keep the Law” in order to be SAVED!

No, no, no.​

​

So you are saying the Law does not need to be followed? If it is not to be kept why are you arguing the point that it is still in effect?​

Jesus brought in a new system. The Law of Moses was part of the Old System. You can't be a part of both, just like you cannot be married to two people at the same time.​

Refrus​

​

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Faith and obedience . yeah been there . i think if i look at it in retrospect . obedience is the scaffolding that the branch attached to the vine wraps itself around but it only takes you so far . once obedience is "complete" then some thing else happens . and its more a matter of growth than explanation .

 

[Rainie]

Paul became "all things to all men", he met them where they were.
1 Cor 9:
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some

It is not hypocritical for Paul to show sensitivity to the individual circumstances of the individuals he met. That is why he behaved the way he did towards the Jews. The important aspect to consider is that he never said that obedience to the Law of Moses was necessary for salvation. In fact he taught the contrary.

Gal 5
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


It is true that the Jews were never saved by perfect obedience to the law, just as Christians are not saved by perfect obedience. Salvation has always been by faith.



It was not Paul who created a new religion, it was Jesus. If Paul had done so he would have been breaking his own words:

Gal 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.


Okay let's look at the passage:
Matt 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

The word 'destroy' is in the Greek 'kataluo', Vines Dictionary says of this word:
kataluo (καταλύω, 2647), kata, “down,” intensive, and No. 4, “to destroy utterly, to overthrow completely,” is rendered “destroy,” in Matt. 5:17, twice, of the Law; Matt. 24:2; 26:61; 27:40; Mark 13:2; 14:58; 15:29; Luke 21:6, of the Temple; in Acts 6:14, of Jerusalem; in Gal. 2:18, of the Law as a means of justification; in Rom. 14:20 (kjv, “destroy,” rv, “overthrow”), of the marring of a person’s spiritual well-being (in v. 15 apollumi, No. 1, is used in the same sense); in Acts 5:38 and 39 (rv, “overthrow”) of the failure of purposes; in 2 Cor. 5:1, of the death of the body (“dissolved).

The idea is to overthrow or to destroy. Jesus did not come to overthrow or to break the law.

The Greek word for fulfill is pleroo:
pleroo (πληρόω, 4137), “to fulfill, to complete, carry out to the full” (as well as to fill), is translated “perfect” in Rev. 3:2, kjv; rv, “I have found no works of thine fulfilled before My God”; “accomplish” in Luke 9:31.
Jesus came to complete the Law.

Both overthrowing and completing the Law would have had the effect of rendering it no longer effective. Jesus is not saying that he would not be removing the law, what he is saying is that he would not be dismantling it, rather, he would be completing it.




Oh please. The New Testament clearly tells me that the behaviour outlined in Lev 18:23 is sinful and it is for that reason, (that it is in the New Testament) that it is binding upon me. The Old Testament says that I should not "suffer a witch to live" (Ex 22:18) and numerous other commandments which are not for today. Should I go around putting witches to death?

In the New Testament nine out of ten of the 'ten commandments' are repeated. The only one that isn't is to do with the keeping of the Sabbath and it is for this reason Sabbatarians try to argue for the continuation of the law of Moses in varying degrees in an attempt to justify sabbath keeping.

In fact the ten commandments were only for the Jews, the is seen in the preamble:

Exodus 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.​

I was never in Egypt, nor am I a part of the people who were. It does not apply to me.​

You have not dealt at all with the passage, so here it is again:
Romans 7
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law),​

that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the​

woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as​

he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her ​

husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, ​

she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from​

that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another​

man. ​

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the​

law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—​

to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to​

God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were​

aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to​

death. ​

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to​

what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the​

Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.​

Israel was delivered from Egypt so that she could be freed from Pharaoh,​

not sin. It was a part of God's plan so that after the passing of time, ​

Jesus could come. The law was "added because of transgression", it outlined a moral code, which nobody could keep, it confined all under sin​

Galatians 3:​

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there​

had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness​

would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all ​

under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to ​

those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard​

by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be​

revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that​

we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no​

longer under a tutor.​

The purpose of the law was to show sin to be sin, it was never meant to

be method whereby people could gain salvation by perfect observance. It was a tutor, to take us to Christ. Since Christ has come, there is no need for the Law, the tutor.​

[/left]

So you are saying the Law does not need to be followed? If it is not to be kept why are you arguing the point that it is still in effect?​

Jesus brought in a new system. The Law of Moses was part of the Old System. You can't be a part of both, just like you cannot be married to two people at the same time.​

Refrus​

[/left]

Refrus (sorry I was misspelling it!),

First off... Good post, thank you for your respect and thoughtful points.

I agree, the Law can't save, IT NEVER DID.
We can unite strongely in this understanding!

The Law we are released from by Messiah's death...
Is the Law of sin and death.
Not the Father's commands which we are told if obeyed will lead to blessing and Life! Or Did God lie?

Sin (disobedence) leads to death
Sin and death are not of God... Adam, Eve and the Serpent introduced "sin and death" into the world by their disobedince, in the Garden.

So what I don't understand is this:
How does His gracious act of freeing us from sin (disobedience) and death (penalty) negate the validity of God's original Law, God's instruction for living?

As you have pointed out with Lev. 18:23, when Christ died He didn't divorce the validity of Lev. 18:23 (which is not specifically re-enforced in the NT).

Jesus carried/bore our SIN and DIED paying our penalty for TRANSGRESSING GOD'S LAW. How DOES this gift of forgiveness and grace VOID GOD'S LAW?

So why don't we I stone the witch, the "animal rapiest," the rebllious child, the adulterer, the murderer, the theif, the child molester because IF A MAN SINCERELY BELIEVES IN CHRIST AND SEEKS CHRIST (REPENTS) THEN JESUS PAID THE PENALTY OF THEIR TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

In no way, do I believe, that Jesus' payment of our sin, has now freed us to...
engage in witchcraft
rebell against our parents
have affairs
murder our neighbor
steal from our boss
have relations with animals
and molest children.

Jesus' death wasn't done in order to ACCOMPLISH & ENCOURAGE SIN TO INCREASE & ABOUND, FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM!

But rather Jesus' death was done to COVER THE SIN & PAY THE PENALTY FOR THE SIN, so that we can obey in peace, without worrying about the penalty we will pay.

You do not believe you are apart of the descendents of Israel?
The "mixed multitude" which was delivered out of Egypt and consisted of both Jews and Gentiles (natives and strangers)?

Doesn't Deuteronomy 29, tell us that, Isreal who enetered into the OLD COVENANT is made up of natives, strangers, current and future generations?
9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant, and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
10 “All of you stand today before the LORD your God: your leaders and your tribes and your elders and your officers, all the men of Israel, 11 your little ones and your wives—also the stranger who is in your camp, from the one who cuts your wood to the one who draws your water— 12 that you may enter into covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath, which the LORD your God makes with you today, 13 that He may establish you today as a people for Himself, and that He may be God to you, just as He has spoken to you, and just as He has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today
Doesn't Jeremiah 31, tell us that the New Covenant is given to Judah and ISREAL the same people who's FATHER'S were LED OUt OF EGYPT?
Doesn't Leviticus 26, Speak of the blessings for obeying God's Law, the cursings of disobedience, the wrath of God that comes upon the disobedeint and how by repentence RESTORATION OF ISREAL AND THE COVENANTS will occur?
Doesn't Ephesians 2, tell us that Gentiles are adopted into the Commonwealth of Israel, by their BELIEF in MESSIAH?
Doesn't Romans 11 Tell us that Gentiles have been grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel via the ROOT (MESSIAH).
"AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" in the end?

Are you SURE you do want to reject having ANY identification with the COMMUNITY OF ISRAEL?


IN HIM- Rainie

 

[Apollos1]

Rainie –

I take note your emotional plea. I am a little surprised at the judgmental attitude you have taken.

But you see, were discussing things here that affect the eternal state of your soul. That is so important to me that I will spend hours in study and preparing the posts you read – expecting forthright answers to the questions and arguments presented. I have no apology to offer for prodding, poking, or provoking you to think about the theology you have, and attempting to show you how it is in error according to the scriptures, while attempting to get those answers the points we both deserve a truthful answer to.

No one said truth-seeking was going to be easy. Tuck your sensibilities in a bit.

And note that my avatar is “APOLLOS” – not Apollo. Is this an honest error or are you being disrespectful?

I will grant that, perhaps, you are not an “idol” worshipper. But it has been my past experience that those that profess that the old law is still authoritative today (while ignoring that Christ mediated a new law/covenant) have underlying reasons to want to keep the old law around. Usually the main reason is so they can cling to the 7th day sabbath that was given only to the Jews. These people sacrifice all that Christ brings to man in the way of salvation from God just to keep that 7th day observation around. This is sad – but true! That sabbath has become the idol they serve.

And yes, I have mentioned that I believe you to be disingenuous in some of your remarks and non-answers to me. I clearly pointed out where and why I thought you were being disingenuous. I can tell that you are too intelligent to misinterpret some of the points presented, and also to answer others in the fashion that you do. So if you are having a problem with my pointing this out, why don’t you counter with an explanation? I will list those points if you so choose.

Have you answered my questions? Some you have and some received a “reply” – there is a difference. And you may actually think that you have answered most of them. But I am telling you that you haven’t answered some and others not at all, and listed the more important ones you didn’t at the end of my last post.

You are correct in that I do not know your name, your marital status, if you have medical problems, or even if you are an Aries and like long walks on the beach.
But I do know this…
You have a soul worth saving and a Saviour that wants to save that soul through the NEW covenant that He died to make possible. And I know that the OLD covenant ain’t gonna get that done for you!

So I will calm things DOWN a couple of notches in my posts to better suit your sensibilities. I insist you will crank things UP a couple notches to give forthright answers to the matters before us.
-----------------------------------------------

Ephesians 2:15 - having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…

Colossians 2:14 - having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross…

Hebrews 7:12 - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law… 14 - For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

Romans 7:4 - Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Hebrews 9:15 - And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Apollos1]

Hey Rainie -

Pardon me for butting in but...

I noticed that you made no reply to Refrus in regards to Romans 7 -
yet AGAIN.

Now that I think of it, you made no reply to me as well...

WHY is that Rainie ???

 

[Rainie]

Rainie –

I take note your emotional plea. I am a little surprised at the judgmental attitude you have taken.

But you see, were discussing things here that affect the eternal state of your soul. That is so important to me that I will spend hours in study and preparing the posts you read – expecting forthright answers to the questions and arguments presented. I have no apology to offer for prodding, poking, or provoking you to think about the theology you have, and attempting to show you how it is in error according to the scriptures, while attempting to get those answers the points we both deserve a truthful answer to.

No one said truth-seeking was going to be easy. Tuck your sensibilities in a bit.

And note that my avatar is “APOLLOS” – not Apollo. Is this an honest error or are you being disrespectful?

I will grant that, perhaps, you are not an “idol” worshipper. But it has been my past experience that those that profess that the old law is still authoritative today (while ignoring that Christ mediated a new law/covenant) have underlying reasons to want to keep the old law around. Usually the main reason is so they can cling to the 7th day sabbath that was given only to the Jews. These people sacrifice all that Christ brings to man in the way of salvation from God just to keep that 7th day observation around. This is sad – but true! That sabbath has become the idol they serve.

And yes, I have mentioned that I believe you to be disingenuous in some of your remarks and non-answers to me. I clearly pointed out where and why I thought you were being disingenuous. I can tell that you are too intelligent to misinterpret some of the points presented, and also to answer others in the fashion that you do. So if you are having a problem with my pointing this out, why don’t you counter with an explanation? I will list those points if you so choose.

Have you answered my questions? Some you have and some received a “reply” – there is a difference. And you may actually think that you have answered most of them. But I am telling you that you haven’t answered some and others not at all, and listed the more important ones you didn’t at the end of my last post.

You are correct in that I do not know your name, your marital status, if you have medical problems, or even if you are an Aries and like long walks on the beach.
But I do know this…
You have a soul worth saving and a Saviour that wants to save that soul through the NEW covenant that He died to make possible. And I know that the OLD covenant ain’t gonna get that done for you!

So I will calm things DOWN a couple of notches in my posts to better suit your sensibilities. I insist you will crank things UP a couple notches to give forthright answers to the matters before us.
-----------------------------------------------

Ephesians 2:15 - having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…

Colossians 2:14 - having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross…

Hebrews 7:12 - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law… 14 - For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

Romans 7:4 - Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Hebrews 9:15 - And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Very well then.

I agree with you that no one should have Idols.

An Idol would be to place your FAITH into objects or concepts as though they are equal to GOD...

Whether one places their FAITH in Law Keeping, Sabbath observance, a crucifix, rosery beads, confession, a cross necklace, giving to Charity, a star of David, Church Group, Bible Study, their Spouse, their Parents, and even The Bible itself.

They are all wrong.
God FIRST.

Thank you for acknowledging that you were out of line in stating that I am an Idol Worshipper.


Please note:
I don't know what the difference is between Apollos and Apollo but I am sorry for offending you by misspelling your name and I will try harder in the future! Let me know if I bring any other personal offense to you, it is not my desire to bring judgement upon YOU.

I'm debating doctrines, theologies, concepts and Scriptural interpertation.


Bless you- Rain

 

[Rainie]

Hey Rainie -

Pardon me for butting in but...

I noticed that you made no reply to Refrus in regards to Romans 7 -
yet AGAIN.

Now that I think of it, you made no reply to me as well...

WHY is that Rainie ???

I am answering you and Refrus about Romans 7.
Just because my answer is "not good" enough, or is not being heard, does not mean that I am not answering...

I have stated very CLEARLY that I believe what Jesus died, divorced and seperated us from the law of "SIN & DEATH."

Please listen to my answer...
In the Graden, God gave a Command and told us to Obey Him.
He COMMANDED MEN... Not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
RIGHT?
GOD'S COMMAND & MAN'S OBEDIENCE, THIS WAS THE WAY OF THE GARDEN & THIS WAY WAS A BLESSING, IT WAS GOOD, MAN AND GOD WALKED TOGETHER AND TALKED TOGETHER IN PERFECT HARMONY.

Am I wrong?

THERE WAS NO "SIN AND DEATH," ONLY THE COMMAND OF GOD AND OBEDIENCE TO THE COMMAND... AND THIS WAS THE PERFECT GOD, MAN RELATIONSHIP FORMULA...

Am I wrong?

At the Garden was "Law Keeping..." Good or Bad, for men?
Was man's obedience to God's Law.... Good or Bad, for men?

Now, when did the law of "SIN AND DEATH" enter into the formula of God and Man's relationship?
Who brought the law of "SIN AND DEATH" into the World, GOD OR MEN?
What is the result of MAN'S SIN in the Garden?

VERY BASIC UNDERSTANDING... IN THE GARDEN.
Who is to blame?
God? For giving a Command and requiring Obedience from His creation?
OR Men? For Disobeying the Command of God as God's creation?

Of course the fault is in US!
We brought upon ourselves the law of "SIN AND DEATH" because we DISOBEYED GOD.

Did Adam say after the fall "but God you asked of me too much! How could Eve and I resist the tree? How could you require us to obey you, your command is too much to bear, SAVE US from your Law?"

NO! The UNBEARABLE, BURDENSOME, YOKE of the Garden is that we were SEPERATED FROM THE FATHER BECAUSE OF OUR SIN AND WITH SIN BLOOD MUST BE SHED!

Who can bear seperation from God???????????????????????

***After Adam and Eve SINNED an animal died because Scripture says God clothed Adam and Eve in the skin of an animal.
This is the first example of how SIN REQUIRES A DEATH to return us to God. Adam and Eve probably say the cost of sin when God clothed them.
Everyday they looked at the skins of the Sacrifice that clothed them do you not think they were reminded of the cost of their sin?
Do you not think they were thankful for the animals Sacrifice?

I see the skin of Messiah (my Sacrifice) everyday when I look in the mirror, everyday I am reminded of the cost of my sin and I am thankful for the Sacrifice that covers MY SIN.



I am using this same principle "Garden Principle" because God does not change.
So, in my belief, Jesus did not come to divorce, free us from and redeem us from God's Command because God's Commands ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!!!!!

Jesus died to, divorced us from and redeem us from the law of "SIN AND DEATH" because on the cross, He bore our SIN AND DEATH.

Does Jesus' redemption from the curse of death negate the value and validty of God's Law?
Did Jesus die, in effect so that we can jump up and down and devour the tree of the knowledge of good and evil???
NO!

Jesus' death was to return us to God, once and for all, to redeem us from the curse of DEATH! Which is caused by OUR DISOBEDIENCE!

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD'S LAW IS THE PROBLEM.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD IS TO BLAME.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD BURDENED ME WITH AN IMPOSSIBLE SET OF LAWS JUST TO MAKE ME FEEL DEFEATED, UNWORTHY AND REALIZE I'M A SINNER!!
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD COMMANDED ADAM TO NOT... "EAT FROM THE TREE" IN ORDER TO SHOW ADAM THAT ADAM WAS INFERIOR TO GOD!
I KNOW I'M INFERIOR, UNWORTHY AND LESS THEN GOD!

I BELIEVE,
THE PROBLEM IS OUR SIN, NOT GOD'S INSTRUCTION!
Jesus delievered, freed, redeemed, divorced and removed the YOKE of SIN AND DEATH and retrieved us from THE PENALTY OF OUR SIN...
WHICH IS DEATH.

THIS IS WHAT MY SAVIOR REDEEMED ME FROM!

If you want to believe that Jesus redeemed you from His Father's Commands because the Father gave you too much to bear, burdened you, enslaved you and placed a yoke on you at Mt. Sinai by asking you to obey HIS LAW, if you believe that that is burden to great to bear for you.

And if this is what you believe Romans 7 is saying in it's opening verses, then I can't change your mind, I can't convince you that God does not enslave, give yokes and burden you beyond what is reasonable.

You've made your choice and if I'm hearing you correctly, for you Jesus divorced you from the Father's ways, the Father's Law, the Father's commands because, for you, God required you to do too much at Mt. Sinai.

Just because I believe the Father's Ways are good, righteous and Holy benefical for living and that Jesus redeemed me from my SIN AND DEATH... does not mean I'm not answering you, IMO, it means that you can't, won't or refuse to hear me.

I hope now you will except that I have answered, even if you disagree.



NOW,
Let's not ignore the rest of Romans 7, in favor of wanting to disobey The Father's commands and teach that they are too difficult, for Paul after saying we have been freed from what held us (IMO, SIN AND DEATH) he says this...

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Keeping God's Law (just like Paul did proven by (Acts 21)) is not a bad thing, as long as it is done as a RESPONSE TO SALVATION and not as A MEANS TO AQUIRE SALVATION.

OBEDINECE APART FROM FAITH, CAN'T SAVE!!!
FAITH FIRST.
AMEN.

Blessings- Rain

 

[RefrusRevlis]

You do not believe you are apart of the descendents of Israel?

The "mixed multitude" which was delivered out of Egypt and consisted of both Jews and Gentiles (natives and strangers)?

Doesn't Deuteronomy 29, tell us that, Isreal who enetered into the OLD COVENANT is made up of natives, strangers, current and future generations?
9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant, and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
10 “All of you stand today before the LORD your God: your leaders and your tribes and your elders and your officers, all the men of Israel, 11 your little ones and your wives—also the stranger who is in your camp, from the one who cuts your wood to the one who draws your water— 12 that you may enter into covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath, which the LORD your God makes with you today, 13 that He may establish you today as a people for Himself, and that He may be God to you, just as He has spoken to you, and just as He has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today
Doesn't Jeremiah 31, tell us that the New Covenant is given to Judah and ISREAL the same people who's FATHER'S were LED OUt OF EGYPT?
Doesn't Leviticus 26, Speak of the blessings for obeying God's Law, the cursings of disobedience, the wrath of God that comes upon the disobedeint and how by repentence RESTORATION OF ISREAL AND THE COVENANTS will occur?
Doesn't Ephesians 2, tell us that Gentiles are adopted into the Commonwealth of Israel, by their BELIEF in MESSIAH?
Doesn't Romans 11 Tell us that Gentiles have been grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel via the ROOT (MESSIAH).
"AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" in the end?

Are you SURE you do want to reject having ANY identification with the COMMUNITY OF ISRAEL?

To answer the last question first: the commonwealth of Israel is not the same as the nation of Israel:

Romans 9

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Only the remnant of believing Jews would remain a part of Israel, the rest is made up of gentile believers:
Romans 9
25 As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.​

and...​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

The commonwealth of Israel menioned in Ephesians 2 is not the same as fleshly Israel. It is not because of physical descendance that one will be saved, but being in Christ by faith and his grace. The unbelieving Jews were cut from Israel and the believing gentiles were grafted in. Israel is, therefore, now the same thing as "the church". It is the body of Christ. It is all who are "in Christ". Therefore I can rightly claim to be a part of Israel.



Romans 11

Doesn't Romans 11 Tell us that Gentiles have been grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel via the ROOT (MESSIAH).
"AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" in the end?

We need to be careful about what we state this verse is saying. Is it saying all physically descended from Isaac will be saved?
DEFINITELY NOT!
What about the Jews who died having rejected Jesus? Hebrews 9:27 tells me these will be lost, for they will have no second chance at accepting Jesus.

Romans 11:26 should literally be rendered "And in this way all Israel will be saved" Does this mean that every man, woman and child who were formerly part of the physical children of Israel would be saved? Nope.

What the passage is saying is:

In this manner all Israel will be saved...(what follows explains the manner)...

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,​

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For ethis is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”​

It in no way teaches universal salvation for the descendents of Isaac, rather states that all who will be saved will be saved by the deliverer (Jesus).


If I was to say "In this manner all people will be saved from the burning house, they will jump out of the window" this does not mean all will escape the fire, it rather expresses the exclusive way of their escape. This is analogous to Romans 11.

More to come Refrus

 

[Apollos1]

Rainie –

We continue… (your remarks in black, my replies in blue).

Rainie said - I am answering you and Refrus about Romans 7.
Just because my answer is "not good" enough, or is not being heard, does not mean that I am not answering...
I have stated very CLEARLY that I believe what Jesus died, divorced and seperated us from the law of "SIN & DEATH."

All you have to do is show that this comment is the context of Romans 7 and how this thought fits into that passage. Answer: It doesn’t…

We brought upon ourselves the law of "SIN AND DEATH" because we DISOBEYED GOD.

No – God gave the command and man disobeyed the command. It is the CONSEQUENCES of disobedience that Adam brought upon himself.

Did Adam say after the fall "but God you asked of me too much! How could Eve and I resist the tree? How could you require us to obey you, your command is too much to bear, SAVE US from your Law?"

Wrong application of the facts again. Adam needed to SAVED from the CONSEQUENCES of disobedience – not the command.

NO! The UNBEARABLE, BURDENSOME, YOKE of the Garden is that we were SEPERATED FROM THE FATHER BECAUSE OF OUR SIN AND WITH SIN BLOOD MUST BE SHED!

Without the shedding of blood this is no remission – true.
Sin separates man from God – true.
But the word “yoke” is not used in the Genesis account or applied to the Genesis account in scripture. You are attempting to create a false context misusing the word “yoke” to benefit your errant theology – not good!
<<<>>>

***After Adam and Eve SINNED an animal died because Scripture says God clothed Adam and Eve in the skin of an animal.
This is the first example of how SIN REQUIRES A DEATH to return us to God. Adam and Eve probably say the cost of sin when God clothed them.

So you are saying that these coats “returned” Adam and Eve to God?
Or that animal death took care of that sin?

I am using this same principle "Garden Principle" because God does not change
.
No God doesn't change – but His law does and the ways He deals with man does – see my first post.

So, in my belief, Jesus did not come to divorce, free us from and redeem us from God's Command because God's Commands ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!

I don’t know anyone who says His commands are the problem. You have worked hard for nothing setting up a false argument. You are the one that brought this up and keep shouting it. This is not the context of Romans 7 and you cannot support your false context from what Paul says in Romans 7.

Paul in Romans 7 states plainly that the body of Christ made us “dead to the law” and that Jesus made it possible for us to be “joined to another” law. Simple and succinct.

Jesus died to, divorced us from and redeem us from the law of "SIN AND DEATH" because on the cross, He bore our SIN AND DEATH.

Unfortunately this false context you created is not supported by the true CONTEXT of Romans 7.

Jesus' death was to return us to God, once and for all, to redeem us from the curse of DEATH! Which is caused by OUR DISOBEDIENCE!

Of course His death made it possible to be reconciled to God, but, once again, this is not specifically what Romans 7 is discussing. Stay in the context!
<<<>>>

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD'S LAW IS THE PROBLEM.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD IS TO BLAME.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD BURDENED ME WITH AN IMPOSSIBLE SET OF LAWS JUST TO MAKE ME FEEL DEFEATED, UNWORTHY AND REALIZE I'M A SINNER!!
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT,
GOD COMMANDED ADAM TO NOT... "EAT FROM THE TREE" IN ORDER TO SHOW ADAM THAT ADAM WAS INFERIOR TO GOD!
I KNOW I'M INFERIOR, UNWORTHY AND LESS THEN GOD!

This rant doesn’t change the facts and it doesn’t change the context of Romans 7. Let’s focus on the topic please.


Jesus delievered, freed, redeemed, divorced and removed the YOKE of SIN AND DEATH and retrieved us from THE PENALTY OF OUR SIN... WHICH IS DEATH.

Let’s use Bible words in Bible ways. NT scripture NEVER says that Jesus “divorced” man from sin. You are attempting to use “divorced” inappropriately to make it seem that Romans 7 say such – it doesn’t!

“Yoke” is used only –6- times in the NT and NEVER is the word used to describe sin or in the context of sin. In Acts 15:10 and Galatians 5:1 the word “yoke” is used as a metaphor to describe the burden of the old law Moses gave at Sinai – both instances recommending us to avoid that law !

If you want to believe that Jesus redeemed you from His Father's Commands…

I want you to realize that through Christ, God gave His spiritual laws for man to follow today to obtain salvation and “divorced” us from that old law given at Sinai that couldn't even save a stone!

You have attempted to answer the questions about Romans 7. I have, however, never seen anyone attempt to set the CONTEXT for Romans 7 going through the events in Genesis. That just doesn’t work…
---------------------------------------------------------------

Ephesians 2:15 - having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace…

Colossians 2:14 - having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross…

Hebrews 7:12 - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law… 14 - For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

Romans 7:4 - Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Hebrews 9:15 - And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

oh wow . how incredibly boring . *clicks unsubscribe link*

 

[Rainie]

To answer the last question first: the commonwealth of Israel is not the same as the nation of Israel:

Romans 9

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For &#65279;they are not all Israel who are of Israel, &#65279;7&#65279; &#65279;nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, &#65279;“&#65279;In Isaac your seed shall be called.&#65279;” &#65279;8&#65279; That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but &#65279;the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Only the remnant of believing Jews would remain a part of Israel, the rest is made up of gentile believers:
Romans 9
&#65279;25&#65279; As He says also in Hosea:
&#65279;“&#65279;I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.&#65279;”
26 “&#65279;And &#65279;it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘&#65279;You are not My people,&#65279;’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.&#65279;”
&#65279;27&#65279; Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
&#65279;“&#65279;Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
&#65279;The remnant will be saved.​

and...​

30 What shall we say then? &#65279;&#65279;That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, &#65279;&#65279;even the righteousness of faith; &#65279;31&#65279; but Israel, &#65279;&#65279;pursuing the law of righteousness, &#65279;&#65279;has not attained to the law &#65279;&#65279;of righteousness. &#65279;32&#65279; Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, &#65279;&#65279;by the works of the law. For &#65279;&#65279;they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

The commonwealth of Israel menioned in Ephesians 2 is not the same as fleshly Israel. It is not because of physical descendance that one will be saved, but being in Christ by faith and his grace. The unbelieving Jews were cut from Israel and the believing gentiles were grafted in. Israel is, therefore, now the same thing as "the church". It is the body of Christ. It is all who are "in Christ". Therefore I can rightly claim to be a part of Israel.



Romans 11


We need to be careful about what we state this verse is saying. Is it saying all physically descended from Isaac will be saved?
DEFINITELY NOT!
What about the Jews who died having rejected Jesus? Hebrews 9:27 tells me these will be lost, for they will have no second chance at accepting Jesus.

Romans 11:26 should literally be rendered "And in this way all Israel will be saved" Does this mean that every man, woman and child who were formerly part of the physical children of Israel would be saved? Nope.

What the passage is saying is:

In this manner all Israel will be saved...(what follows explains the manner)...

&#65279;&#65279;“&#65279;The Deliverer will come out of Zion,​

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For &#65279;e&#65279;this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.&#65279;”​

It in no way teaches universal salvation for the descendents of Isaac, rather states that all who will be saved will be saved by the deliverer (Jesus).


If I was to say "In this manner all people will be saved from the burning house, they will jump out of the window" this does not mean all will escape the fire, it rather expresses the exclusive way of their escape. This is analogous to Romans 11.

More to come Refrus

Refrus,
I simply thought in one of your earlier posts that you were saying that you are NOT apart of Israel and I wanted you to re-think that position.

I see here that either I misunderstood your earlier comments or that you have re-thought it. Either way I'm glad that we can agree that "Israel" is ALL (Jew and Gentile) who sincerely believe and place their FAITH in Messiah for Salvation (period)... Right? (Feel free to correct me).

I think we disagree on the specifics of this but the general concept of who "Israel" is in the NT has been agreed upon... I think?

NT "Israel" is ALL (Jews or Gentiles) who have a sincere FAITH in Messiah.

Thanks again for the RESPECTFUL, informative and upright post!

In Him-
Rainie

 

[Bombeni]

I believe when Christ came "all things were made new" and He became the Sacrifice which previously was blood of lambs. This is a big subject, but that is my short take on it. It is funny tho how athiests always quote from the OT in order to justify being athiest. They can't find anything in the NT that would justify it, so they just claim Jesus either never existed, or was a magician, or some silly thing like that.

 

[razeontherock]

I believe that we should always look at sacred scripture through the lens of the cross of Christ.

Thou shalt not kill through that lens is still thou shalt not kill. For in killing our neighbor we are not following the law of love.

Thou shalt not eat shrimp through that lens is Christ declared all foods clean (cf Mark 7:19).

Since He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them, we as Christians do not abolish the OT, but instead see them as fulfilled in Christ.

Just my 2 cents

This is wonderful! I would just like to add, that for a deeper relationship with our Lord we can gain much insight into who He is through the OT. All the minutae of the law pertains to Christ. I mean it must, since He fulfilled it, right? Very often the things that happened earlier for our learning have deeper, Spiritual meaning and application in Christ; things we'd never understand nor appreciate if we only read the NT. Some of this can be very powerful, especially the sacrifices! All those various sacrifices, with all the steps and requirements, all fulfilled in Christ's one sacrifice - talk about "my Servant shall deal prudently!"

Anybody remember this hymn "when I survey the wonderful cross ..."