Charles Stanley promotes Sabbath keeping.

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Will be fully in force in heaven though -- what do you suppose the penalty will be in heaven for anyone who commits adultery there?

Indeed - probably not "another helping of ice cream"

 

[Aseyesee]

Why would I even want to do such a thing??



Neither of them say "The Law is spirit".

Rather the law is "spiritual" - it can only be kept by those who are born-again. As Romans 8:4-9 points out - it is the lost who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" as contrasted to the born-again saved person.

And the law they quote -- is always from the OT.

The question is can you ...

Jesus Christ said his words are spirit, and they are life.

The commandment of God is life everlasting.

God is a spirit, and his words are nothing less then himself.

The nature of the law of God is much different then we percieve it to be.

 

[BobRyan]

The question is can you ...
.

the question is can you accept Romans 8:4-9??

well... can you?

You have free will.

The answer should be "yes".

And of course - even for Christians today... it is still "sin" to take God's name in vain.. the Commandments of God "do matter" as Christ reminds us in Mark 7:6-13

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

This is an excellent example.

Jesus cannot possibly be construed as promoting a new teaching on adultery that says "ignore the sin of adultery now that Jesus has come... no need to worry about that one".

When Jesus said to the woman "go and sin no more" John 8:11 he was arguing AGAINST the sin of adultery.

yet these examples are "supposedly Jesus teaching us to ignore the Commandments of God" as some would have it...

In the case of John 8 -- the woman is caught "in the act of adultery" - meaning that the man was also caught - but is not there to be stoned... in fact the man is one of those in the group doing the stoning.

The group that was condemning was in fact complicit - and so "he writes down their sins" ... His command is not "adultery is not a sin" but rather "let him who is innocent in this matter cast the first stone" -- they all left. It was corruption at the highest levels in the group -- starting with the eldest they fled as Jesus began to record their sins. Their "transgression of the Law".

Jesus does not say "I am here now -- adultery is ok".

No, I have not said what you think...As Aseyesee has said, it was obvious Jesus thought she was guilty...but He did not condemn her...

The two great commandments Jesus said on these hang all the law and the prophets.

God is love...
Jesus may have practiced this...

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses...it seems

 

[BobRyan]

...as with the woman caught in adultery (and Jesus bends down to write on the ground, twice)...He did not condemn her.

This is an excellent example.

Jesus cannot possibly be construed as promoting a new teaching on adultery that says "ignore the sin of adultery now that Jesus has come... no need to worry about that one".

When Jesus said to the woman "go and sin no more" John 8:11 he was arguing AGAINST the sin of adultery.

yet these examples are "supposedly Jesus teaching us to ignore the Commandments of God" as some would have it...

In the case of John 8 -- the woman is caught "in the act of adultery" - meaning that the man was also caught - but is not there to be stoned... in fact the man is one of those in the group doing the stoning.

The group that was condemning was in fact complicit - and so "he writes down their sins" ... His command is not "adultery is not a sin" but rather "let him who is innocent in this matter cast the first stone" -- they all left. It was corruption at the highest levels in the group -- starting with the eldest they fled as Jesus began to record their sins. Their "transgression of the Law".

Jesus does not say "I am here now -- adultery is ok".

No, I have not said what you think.

Ok - What is it you think I think you said??

..As Aseyesee has said, it was obvious Jesus thought she was guilty...but He did not condemn her...

Nothing in the text says "but she did not do it" or "but she did not actually commit adultery" ... rather as I said above --

When Jesus said to the woman "go and sin no more" John 8:11 he was arguing AGAINST the sin of adultery.

I am arguing the same... she was guilty.

The two great commandments Jesus said on these hang all the law and the prophets.

God is love...
Jesus may have practiced this...

Jesus never said "God is Love" and never said "God is love is one of two commandments on which hand all the law and the prophets" -- we both agree on that point -- right?

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses...it seems

True we should forgive others - but Jesus did not say in John 8 that the problem was that the men were not forgiving. Rather as I pointed out - they were complicit.

 

[Aseyesee]

the question is can you accept Romans 8:4-9??

well... can you?

You have free will.

The answer should be "yes".

And of course - even for Christians today... it is still "sin" to take God's name in vain.. the Commandments of God "do matter" as Christ reminds us in Mark 7:6-13

Never said they didn't, but that there is more to it then your seeing.

If you cannot obtain it by keeping it, you cannot keep it by maintaining it; which relates to Jesus's words how you cannot add to your stature by taking thought.

Your answer to me should be no, should it not?

We cannot know Him outside of being Him, which is the truth Jesus lived in, and the truth that lived in him, a truth that he was, but not exclusive to him.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
the question is can you accept Romans 8:4-9??

well... can you?

You have free will.

The answer should be "yes".

And of course - even for Christians today... it is still "sin" to take God's name in vain.. the Commandments of God "do matter" as Christ reminds us in Mark 7:6-13

Never said they didn't,

Now see? We do agree on something after all.

If you cannot obtain it by keeping it, you cannot keep it by maintaining it;

Nice - but not scripture.

by contrast we have this --

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

This too - is actual scripture.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So instead of saying "Don't worry if you take God's name in vain, or dishonor parents, or break the Sabbath as long as you feel justified in doing so" Jesus said "In VAIN do they worship Me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

"setting aside the commandment of God" ?? Isn't that exactly what mankind wants to do today??

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Matt 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


"Do not be deceived"
1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed,

"Forgiveness revoked"
Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

None of these texts carry the doctrine "nothing you can do to be lost"

scripture matters

 

[Aseyesee]

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Truth or lie?

 

[Aseyesee]

"If you cannot obtain it by keeping it, you cannot keep it by maintaining it"


Nice - but not scripture.

by contrast we have this --

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

So you believe you can obtain the promise by keeping it? That you can add to your stature by taking thought.

 

[Noxot]

those are some good bible verses.

1Cor 7:17-20 (YLT)
if not, as God did distribute to each, as the Lord hath called each--so let him walk; and thus in all the assemblies do I direct: being circumcised--was any one called? let him not become uncircumcised; in uncircumcision was any one called? let him not be circumcised; the circumcision is nothing, and the uncircumcision is nothing--but a keeping of the commands of God. Each in the calling in which he was called--in this let him remain;

Gal 5:13-18 (YLT)
For ye--to freedom ye were called, brethren, only not the freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through the love serve ye one another, for all the law in one word is fulfilled--in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;' and if one another ye do bite and devour, see--that ye may not by one another be consumed. And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete; for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will--these ye may not do; and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.

the wonders of the spirit

Zech 7:8-14 (ESV2011)
And the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.” But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears that they might not hear. They made their hearts diamond-hard lest they should hear the law and the words that the LORD of hosts had sent by his Spirit through the former prophets. Therefore great anger came from the LORD of hosts. “As I called, and they would not hear, so they called, and I would not hear,” says the LORD of hosts, “and I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations that they had not known. Thus the land they left was desolate, so that no one went to and fro, and the pleasant land was made desolate.”

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Ok - What is it you think I think you said??

You are very clear that you do not believe God promised eternal rest to our soul, a sabbath Days rest we enter into and find pasture, life, we come in out of the field labouring for our bread (of life) and recline at the table and are served at the wedding feast beyond The Door...hidden mannah. That you believe keeping the letter of the law by thought and effort, and is the truth you walk in.

The Pharisees and Jews of Jesus time kept the law to the nth degree, and yet they killed Him...saw Him as the adversary...

Jesus never said "God is Love" and never said "God is love is one of two commandments on which hand all the law and the prophets" -- we both agree on that point -- right?

Jesus possessed the love of God and walked in it. For God loved us while we were yet sinners...
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Father forgive them for they no not what they do...and the woman caught in adultery...not condemning/judging...love your neighbour as yourself...

True we should forgive others - but Jesus did not say in John 8 that the problem was that the men were not forgiving. Rather as I pointed out - they were complicit.

Adding to the word of God is what the woman did in the garden...and Adam (in his sleep) being complicit got them kicked out...eyesight changed...eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil instead, the tree of LIFE being blocked and guarded. Perceiving what sin is and the law has everything to do with which tree we are eating from...for one of those trees cannot be seen until we become blind.

Which, if and when we find that Tree of Life in our midst, there be no more sin, law fulfilled...God's commandment...

I judge you not for keeping the ritual of the sabbath day. It is what you need to do...nothing out of step or out of place, just as it is supposed to be.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I judge you not for keeping the ritual of the sabbath day. It is what you need to do...nothing out of step or out of place, just as it is supposed to be.

Who keeps a ritual Sabbath and what is it in your view? Is committing Adultery a ritual? What about lying and stealing? Is making idols, committing murder or having other Gods a ritual practice in your view? What is the difference between the mirror that shows all and the lamb that takes away the sins of the world? What is sin?

 

[Bob S]

Nine of the 10 commandments were about morality. One was about a ritual keeping of a day. I suppose there are some that will try to refute that fact, but it is still a fact. Nine of those commands either deal with how to treat God or our fellow man. One is how Israel was to deal with a day.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Who keeps a ritual Sabbath and what is it in your view? Is committing Adultery a ritual? What about lying and stealing? Is making idols, committing murder or having other Gods a ritual practice in your view? What is the difference between the mirror that shows all and the lamb that takes away the sins of the world? What is sin?

Entering into the promised sabbath rest is a spiritual reality that words cannot convey/reaveal...the rest of the commandments, I have answered that question several times throughout this thread...they are not abolished but fulfilled to the uttermost (without thought and effort) when we enter in...to that Sabbath rest.

Seeing through a glass/mirror, dimly at first...then as the shadows/darkness is overcome by His marvelous light, face to face we see the image in the mirror of who we are, a son created in HIS image.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nine of the 10 commandments were about morality. One was about a ritual keeping of a day. I suppose there are some that will try to refute that fact, but it is still a fact. Nine of those commands either deal with how to treat God or our fellow man. One is how Israel was to deal with a day.

What is a "moral law"? I am not sure what dictionary you use but I think most of them from what I saw say the same thing. "moral "ˈmɒr(ə)l/ 1. adjective: moral concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior; to do with right and wrong. 2. noun: moral standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong. So the "Moral Law" is a law of "right and wrong behavior".

God's Law is the standard of right and wrong behavior (sin and righteousness) and the knowledge of good and evil. (Psalms 119:172; 1 John 3:4; James 2:11; Romans 3:20). It is God's Word that says if we break one of the 10 we are guilty of breaking all of them (James 2:8-12).

Now if the 4th commandment is one of the 10. Where does it say in God's Word that we no longer need to keep it a holy day as a memorial of creation as God has commanded us? If you keep Sunday in place of God's Sabbath where has God asked you to do this in His Word? If there is no scripture for disregarding God's Law than should we not follow the Word of God over the traditions of man?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Entering into the promised sabbath rest is a spiritual reality that words cannot convey/reaveal...the rest of the commandments, I have answered that question several times throughout this thread...they are not abolished but fulfilled to the uttermost (without thought and effort) when we enter in...to that Sabbath rest. Seeing through a glass/mirror, dimly at first...then as the shadows/darkness is overcome by His marvelous light, face to face we see the image in the mirror of who we are, a son created in HIS image.

What is the mirror that shows the way that the blind can see? Those that were in unbelief to God's Word and rebelled against him in the wilderness could not enter into His Sabbath rest because they choose not to follow God's Word. If we do not follow God's Word can we enter into His rest?

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29)
Why? Because God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him (Acts 5:32)

If we are following man made teaching's over the Word of God are we following God? (Matthew 15:3-9)

 

[BobRyan]

Nine of the 10 commandments were about morality. .

Until you read them and read 1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Definition of morality for English Language Learners. : beliefs about what is right behavior and what is wrong behavior. : the degree to which something is right and good : the moral goodness or badness of something.

Rebellion against the Word of God - - is wrong.

"Sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is Truth" John 17.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So instead of saying "Don't worry if you take God's name in vain, or dishonor parents, or break the Sabbath as long as you feel justified in doing so" Jesus said "In VAIN do they worship Me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

"setting aside the commandment of God" ?? Isn't that exactly what mankind wants to do today??

 

[BobRyan]

...as with the woman caught in adultery (and Jesus bends down to write on the ground, twice)...He did not condemn her.

This is an excellent example.

Jesus cannot possibly be construed as promoting a new teaching on adultery that says "ignore the sin of adultery now that Jesus has come... no need to worry about that one".

When Jesus said to the woman "go and sin no more" John 8:11 he was arguing AGAINST the sin of adultery.

yet these examples are "supposedly Jesus teaching us to ignore the Commandments of God" as some would have it...

In the case of John 8 -- the woman is caught "in the act of adultery" - meaning that the man was also caught - but is not there to be stoned... in fact the man is one of those in the group doing the stoning.

The group that was condemning was in fact complicit - and so "he writes down their sins" ... His command is not "adultery is not a sin" but rather "let him who is innocent in this matter cast the first stone" -- they all left. It was corruption at the highest levels in the group -- starting with the eldest they fled as Jesus began to record their sins. Their "transgression of the Law".

Jesus does not say "I am here now -- adultery is ok".

No, I have not said what you think.

Ok - What is it you think I think you said??

..As Aseyesee has said, it was obvious Jesus thought she was guilty...but He did not condemn her...

Nothing in the text says "but she did not do it" or "but she did not actually commit adultery" ... rather as I said above --

When Jesus said to the woman "go and sin no more" John 8:11 he was arguing AGAINST the sin of adultery.

I am arguing the same... she was guilty.

The two great commandments Jesus said on these hang all the law and the prophets.

God is love...
Jesus may have practiced this...

Jesus never said "God is Love" and never said "God is love is one of two commandments on which hand all the law and the prophets" -- we both agree on that point -- right?

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses...it seems

True we should forgive others - but Jesus did not say in John 8 that the problem was that the men were not forgiving. Rather as I pointed out - they were complicit.

You are very clear that you do not believe God promised eternal rest

false accusation much?

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Eternal means lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

I accuse no one. You have stated that the sabbath rest is a day of the week to be observed. I speak to entering God's promised eternal rest (sabbath) in which all the law is fulfilled without thought or effort. You have told me that is not so...

Ok - What is it you think I think you said??

Which I answered: - You are very clear that you do not believe God promised eternal rest.

What do these scripture speak to regarding entering into that promise?

As spoken about by John and Paul...that is more than observing a day of the week...

"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."

Hebrews 4:3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

 

[Bob S]

What is a "moral law"? I am not sure what dictionary you use but I think most of them from what I saw say the same thing. "moral "ˈmɒr(ə)l/ 1. adjective: moral concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior; to do with right and wrong. 2. noun: moral standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong. So the "Moral Law" is a law of "right and wrong behavior".

Why are opposing what I wrote? Sabbath was, according to Jewish law, a ritual. What is wrong with being a ritual law?

God's Law is the standard of right and wrong behavior (sin and righteousness) and the knowledge of good and evil. (Psalms 119:172; 1 John 3:4; James 2:11; Romans 3:20). It is God's Word that says if we break one of the 10 we are guilty of breaking all of them (James 2:8-12).

God's law to Israel is defunct. Israel broke the law covenant and it was negated at Calvary. 2Cor 3:7-11 tells us the 10 commandments were temporary. All your verses point to the new law of love.

Now if the 4th commandment is one of the 10. Where does it say in God's Word that we no longer need to keep it a holy day as a memorial of creation as God has commanded us?

He never ever commanded US, He commanded Israel.

If you keep Sunday in place of God's Sabbath where has God asked you to do this in His Word?

He hasn't and I don't, so for me it is nothing but a strawman argument.

If there is no scripture for disregarding God's Law than should we not follow the Word of God over the traditions of man?

There is scripture, take your blinders off and you too will be able to see. Israel's law was for Israel only.. It was not for their salvation. Why do you make something that was not salvational into a salvational issue. You are following a totally false prophet, too bad.