Charles Robert Darwin

[Tone]

Well then, natural selection is still ongoing. Some animals, even members of the same species, are better suited for their environment than others.

Those animals will thrive. The others... won't.

Unless we intervene .

 

[Tone]

Evolution is a description of the consequences of changing life in a changing environment... not a moral lesson or behavioral imperative.

Humans constantly try to deliberately change the environment... but we make a lot of mistakes.

But aren't there environmental ethics?

 

[Tone]

Well then, natural selection is still ongoing. Some animals, even members of the same species, are better suited for their environment than others.

Those animals will thrive. The others... won't.

I think it's more of a matter of being out of bounds.

 

[Shemjaza]

But aren't there environmental ethics?

Not a very good source of ethics if you ask me.

It's like deciding that gravity is your source of ethics and deciding that all things must be thrown off of something.

 

[Ophiolite]

It's like deciding that gravity is your source of ethics and deciding that all things must be thrown off of something.

I not so sure. I find gravitational ethics quite attractive, especially when you are dealing with weighty matters.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Unless we intervene .

not necessarily... If we intervene, we become part of that animal's environment. Our influence becomes a factor that they have to adapt to.

if we are a harmful influence, we're no different from any other predator. If we're beneficial to them, they will have to compete with one another for those benefits.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I think it's more of a matter of being out of bounds.

Except the environment is constantly changing. A change in weather patterns, a flood, a drought, a new predator/prey moves into the area... and suddenly the "bounds" have shifted.

The playing field changes, but the rules stay the same: adapt or die.

 

[pitabread]

So then why do we fight them?

*And isn't it us who have introduced them in the first place?

Fight what? What specifically were you referring to in my post?

 

[Tone]

Fight what? What specifically were you referring to in my post?

All those things you listed.

 

[TLK Valentine]

All those things you listed.

Are you seriously asking why we fight bacteria? Insects?

 

[Tone]

Are you seriously asking why we fight bacteria? Insects?

Sure.

 

[Ophiolite]

Are you seriously asking why we fight bacteria? Insects?

Sure.

Survival. Ours, not theirs.

 

[Tone]

Survival. Ours, not theirs.

So, are you saying that "our" (humans?) survival is more important? And how long have we been using anti-bacteria and pesticides for? Have we been battling other species for millions of years, and we are still here, because we have been winning? What is the ultimate goal--to preserve the earth or to preserve human life on earth...why?

*And wouldn't we be doing the human species a greater service by allowing the weak among us to be culled, instead of fighting the cullers (should be a word)?

 

[Tone]

If we're evolving upward, why do we have the sciences and the other disciplines that seek to work against it. Didn't we get to this point by nature taking its course...why, all , of a sudden, this push for human rights, progress, preservation,etc...?

*All within a few hundred years or so...

 

[Ophiolite]

So, are you saying that "our" (humans?) survival is more important?

Well, I might - for the moment - simply note that, according to the Bible, we have been given stewardship over the Earth and its other inhabitants. So, from a literalist Christian standpoint, it seems humans are more important than the rest.

Have we been battling other species for millions of years, and we are still here, because we have been winning?

Obviously. We have also been cooperating with other species for millions of years, and we are still here, because cooperation works.

What is the ultimate goal--to preserve the earth or to preserve human life on earth...why?

What makes you think there is an ultimate goal? Teleology has limited application.

*And wouldn't we be doing the human species a greater service by allowing the weak among us to be culled, instead of fighting the cullers (should be a word)?

It depends whether your goal is to protect the physical well being of the species (using a questionable approach, probably doomed to failure), or to protect the mental and ethical well being of the species.
Of course, if your goal is to eliminate troublesome atheists like Stephen Hawking then go for the cull.

 

[Tone]

Well, I might - for the moment - simply note that, according to the Bible, we have been given stewardship over the Earth and its other inhabitants. So, from a literalist Christian standpoint, it seems humans are more important than the rest.

Oh, I know why I value human life. I'm asking for a pure evolutionary perspective on it.

Obviously. We have also been cooperating with other species for millions of years, and we are still here, because cooperation works.

But, how long have we been doing this consciously. Since it has been without the science and technology of today for...what...billions? of years, don't you think that the way we are going about it today may very well lead to our demise?

Don't all the disciplines (scholastics) seek to rectify/deal with the effects of entropy as their ultimate goal?

What makes you think there is an ultimate goal? Teleology has limited application.

Why else do we have education?

It depends whether your goal is to protect the physical well being of the species (using a questionable approach, probably doomed to failure), or to protect the mental and ethical well being of the species.
Of course, if your goal is to eliminate troublesome atheists like Stephen Hawking then go for the cull.

Does evolution deal with anything other than physical life?

 

[Tone]

Does evolution arise out of order or is it out of disorder?

 

[Yttrium]

Does evolution arise out of order or is it out of disorder?

Order and disorder are human concepts. What we mean by them can vary on the situation. If I place a number of seeds in a nice grid pattern on a flat rock, that would appear orderly to us humans. But I'm not doing the seeds any favors by doing that.

Now, if we're talking about entropy, some decrease in local entropy may be needed as evolution progresses. This really has nothing to do with order or disorder, though. It's all about heat transfer, and the availability of energy to do work. The Sun provides the energy that makes this local reduction in entropy possible.

When things get more complex, we might see it as more orderly, but that's in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Ophiolite]

Oh, I know why I value human life. I'm asking for a pure evolutionary perspective on it.

I'm not certain the phrase "pure evolutionary perspective" has any semantic content. If you think it does perhaps you will present it in unambiguous terms. (I came up with five radically different attempts at an answer to that before I gave up.)

But, how long have we been doing this consciously. Since it has been without the science and technology of today for...what...billions? of years, don't you think that the way we are going about it today may very well lead to our demise?

We have already caused the demise of thousands of species. We are set to cause the demise of tens of thousands more. Even if we survive it will be as a species whose scope and capabilities and future are massively reduced. We can change this, but to do this we need to recognise our evolutionary roots and our animal nature. Science is not the problem; our specific application of particular aspects of science are the issue.

Don't all the disciplines (scholastics) seek to rectify/deal with the effects of entropy as their ultimate goal?

Not that I can see. It's an odd claim. Feel free to make an argument for it.

Why else do we have education?

Your question question lacked specificity. You did not appear to be asking about human goals, but about the goals of evolution, of which there are none. Education fulfils a variety of needs. Some consider it a form of indoctrination to enhance control of the "educated".

Does evolution deal with anything other than physical life?

That depends on what you mean by physical life. It certainly deals with inherited behaviours. I would classify those as part of "physical life" and so my answer would be, no - not that I can think of.

 

[Ophiolite]

Does evolution arise out of order or is it out of disorder?

Yes.