Changing the Bible Sabbath by presumption alone ?

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Matthew 5 "do not even think that I came to reduce or abolish the LAW"
Mark 2:27 "the SABBATH was MADE for mankind"

Bob,
Why are you still repeating the same ole arguments?

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

Question for you - how many times is the term "Sabbath" used in the NT to refer to the Bible Sabbath of Exodus 20 -- but observed on a different day?

Answer: zero.

1. Many folks complain about the "mere quote" of the text as we see in your post.
2. The text is "irrefutable"
3. The text is very "old"

I agree and teach the Ten Commandments are eternal and the Church Is to keep them.

And so also do the many pro-Sunday groups in my signature line. You take a position that is very popular among Bible scholars.

I affirm you for doing so.

But as you may notice - the 99.9% postings here by those who oppose the Bible Sabbath is almost always against "the TEN" or any statement affirming "the TEN".

My question to you is where are the scriptures in the New Testament that instruct us how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

My question for you is where is the NT text saying that the scriptures telling us HOW to keep the Bible Sabbath have been deleted??.

Where does the NT say that the Sabbath remains as long as we do not keep it "HOW" God said it is to kept in the actual Sabbath Commandment
-on the seventh day "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10
- a day of rest Ex 20:8-10
- a day of holy convocation Lev 23:3

Where is it that the NT says "ok all ten remain as long as you don't keep Sabbath the way God said to keep it in the actual commandment"???

In your case you insist that it goes right down to the very wording of the Commandment that has been "invisibly changed".

Changed from "the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" into "any day you wish is THE Sabbath of the LORD" or "any way you wish is how to keep that 7th day Sabbath holy".

The burden of proof is on those who make such extreme assumptions.

You assume the salient point in your argument when you go to "Assume it is changed or details deleted and start over when reading the Jewish authors of the NT writing about God's Sabbath. So then if they still 'mean it' they must 'repeat it' ".

It would be like saying "find 'do not take God's name in vain' in the book of Titus and if you don't find it then it is up for changes" -- how in the world would inserts of that form be "merely assumed to be true"??.

Question for you: How many times is the term "Sabbath" used in the NT to refer to some day of the week that is NOT the 7th day??

Answer: zero.

The OT specification for observance of the Bible Sabbath spoken by God -
1. The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) Ex 20:10
2. A day of rest - Exodus 20:8-11 - no secular activity Isaiah 8:13
3. A day of "holy convocation" Lev 23:3

Question for you: What NT text says Sabbath commandment must not be kept with the specifications directed by God in scripture? ( i.e. in the OT)

Answer: there is not one such text.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi JBL, You say you agree and teach the 10 commandments and that they are eternal. Why would angels in Heaven need the 10 commandments and why would Christians need the 10 commandments?

By contrast - the actual Bible.

Matthew 19 Christ quoting from the TEN
Eph 6:2 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Romans 13 - Paul quoting from the TEN
James 2 - James quoting from the TEN
Romans 7 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Mark 7:6-13 - Christ quoting from the TEN

 

[Alpha.Omega]

the Old Testament Sabbath Day is just that, for the Old Testament or Covenant. Christians have from NT times worshiped the Lord on the First day of the Week, known as the Lord's Day. I think only the SDA today still are under the OT outdated system.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

the Old Testament Sabbath Day is just that, for the Old Testament or Covenant. Christians have from NT times worshiped the Lord on the First day of the Week, known as the Lord's Day. I think only the SDA today still are under the OT outdated system.

The OT combined the day of rest with a day of ritual worship. Today we can rest on the Sabbath (the day of rest) and worship on Sunday. Best of both worlds. The OT Sabbath was hardly a day of 'rest' for Israel. While they refrained from their occupational work it was still a pretty busy day for them. While the meaning of 'rest' in the commandment is taken to mean abstain from the usual workaday tasks the literal meaning is rest, repose; physical rest.

If mankind ever needed a full day's rest once a week, it is certainly now.

 

[JLB777]

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

There is nothing in Acts 18:4 that shows us a command to gather on the Sabbath to worship Jesus.

This scripture shows Paul himself going to reason with unsaved Jews in their synagogue.

These unsaved Jews opposed and blasphemed him in which he went to the Gentiles.


But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”


Paul didn’t stay there at the Synagogue to keep the Sabbath and worship Jesus, but moved on to the Gentiles.

• Please go ahead and point out in this passage where it says the Church was commanded by Paul to gather on the Sabbath.

• Please point out in this passage the specific instructions about keeping the Sabbath, given to us by Paul?

And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” Acts 18:4-6



JLB

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Jesus, and the Jews and others, kept the OC Sabbath because the Law was still in effect (throughout most of the 'NT' history recorded in the bible). After the destruction of the Temple and the priesthood, the OC was no longer in force, including ritual worship on the Sabbath. Of course the spiritual laws are immutable, but not enforced today by any except conservative Jews.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

the Old Testament Sabbath Day is just that, for the Old Testament or Covenant. Christians have from NT times worshiped the Lord on the First day of the Week, known as the Lord's Day. I think only the SDA today still are under the OT outdated system.

Your statement above is not in harmony with the following verses

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;

Yes man changes doctrine but not GOD his doctrines are everlasting

So what are you going to do, disregard them or cut them out of the Word of GOD as they do not support you private interpretation?

Yesterday
Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And God spake all these words, saying, (Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Today ( During JESUS ministry on earth)
Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

for ever
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Do you want to be SANCTIFIED?
Ezekiel 20:12
Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

Conclusion
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Your statement changes the law of GOD does it not?

 

[Alpha.Omega]

Your statement above is not in harmony with the following verses

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;

Yes man changes doctrine but not GOD his doctrines are everlasting

So what are you going to do, disregard them or cut them out of the Word of GOD as they do not support you private interpretation?

Yesterday
Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And God spake all these words, saying, (Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Today ( During JESUS ministry on earth)
Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

for ever
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Do you want to be SANCTIFIED?
Ezekiel 20:12
Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

Conclusion
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Your statement changes the law of GOD does it not?

"For if that First Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the Second" (Hebrews 8:7)

 

[JLB777]

Jesus, and the Jews and others, kept the OC Sabbath because the Law was still in effect (throughout most of the 'NT' history recorded in the bible). After the destruction of the Temple and the priesthood, the OC was no longer in force, including ritual worship on the Sabbath. Of course the spiritual laws are immutable, but not enforced today by any except conservative Jews.

Yes sir.

We need to refer to the that pertain to the Sabbath, before the law of Moses, was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, since it ceased when the Seed came.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until... the Seed, Jesus Christ should come.

The Sabbath requirements according to the law became obsolete and were taken out of the way.

Now we must search the New Testament to discover what Paul and the other Apostles instructed or commanded the Church to do, concerning the Sabbath, as well as gathering together to worship the Lord.

Paul dealt with these ordinances from the law of Moses concerning foods and feast days and Sabbath requirements.


One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
Romans 14:5-6

Again


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:14-17

Paul explains the ruirements under the law of Moses was nailed to the cross and thereby taken out of the way.

Paul goes on to define the requirements that were nailed to the cross ...

• So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

JLB

 

[JLB777]

Your statement above is not in harmony with the following verses

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;

Yes the Lord does not change.

That certainly doesn’t mean the law of Moses is still in effect, since it was nailed to the cross and taken out of the way having become obsolete, in the light of the New Covenant.

Otherwise we are required to put to death those who so much as pick up sticks to kindle a fire on the Sabbath.

14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15


Do you put to death those who violate the Sabbath according to the law of Moses?



JLB

 

[BobRyan]

the Old Testament Sabbath Day

No text in OT or NT uses the phrase "the Old Testament Sabbath day" any more than any text in OT or NT uses the phrase "the Old Testament command against taking God's name in vain" and we all know it.

Bible details matter

I notice you also did not address a single question in the OP - presumably because you reject the idea that the Ten Commandments apply to Christians.

is just that, for the Old Testament or Covenant.

The Bible command in God's Word for the Sabbath and against taking God's name in vain is in both Old Covenant and New Covenant.

New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 says "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" not "Just nine of My Ten Commandments". -- And we all know it.

Bible details matter.

Christians have from NT times worshiped the Lord on the First day of the Week, known as the Lord's Day.

1. There is not one single text in Old Testament or New Testament that says week-day-1 is the Lord's Day -- and we all know it.

2. There is not one single text in the New Testament that says that they met "every week-day-1" for worship and gospel preaching - but we DO have "Every Sabbath" both Jews and Gentiles met in the synagogue for worship and Gospel preaching by the Apostle Paul in Acts 18:4.

Bible details matter.

I think only the SDA today still are under the OT outdated system.

Hint: Read the signature line for those pro-sunday groups that affirm ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

I agree and teach the Ten Commandments are eternal and the Church Is to keep them.

Which is another reason I point to that list of groups that agree with your POV.

 

[BobRyan]

"For if that First Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the Second" (Hebrews 8:7)

Both Old Covenant and New Covenant contain the moral law of God.

The TEN Commandments condemn all the lost under the "old Covenant" model of "Obey and Live".

The Ten Commandments are written on the heart and mind under the "New Covenant"

In the actual Bible.

Matthew 19 Christ quoting from the TEN
Eph 6:2 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Romans 13 - Paul quoting from the TEN
James 2 - James quoting from the TEN
Romans 7 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Mark 7:6-13 - Christ quoting from the TEN

 

[BobRyan]

Your statement above is not in harmony with the following verses

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;

Yes man changes doctrine but not GOD his doctrines are everlasting

So what are you going to do, disregard them or cut them out of the Word of GOD as they do not support you private interpretation?

Yesterday
Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And God spake all these words, saying, (Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Today ( During JESUS ministry on earth)
Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

for ever
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Do you want to be SANCTIFIED?
Ezekiel 20:12
Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

Conclusion
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Your statement changes the law of GOD does it not?

good post.

God does not change -- Malachi 3:6
Jesus Christ is the SAME yesterday today and forever - Hebrews 13:8

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast - the actual Bible.

Matthew 19 Christ quoting from the TEN
Eph 6:2 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Romans 13 - Paul quoting from the TEN
James 2 - James quoting from the TEN
Romans 7 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Mark 7:6-13 - Christ quoting from the TEN

BobRyan said: ↑
Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

There is nothing in Acts 18:4 that shows us a command to gather on the Sabbath to worship

It would be odd if God had to "repeat Himself" in every book of the Bible ..

There is not one text in the NT saying "Do not take God's name in vain" and we all know it.

Yet that fact does not delete that command as you and I both agree - and you and I both agree that all TEN of the TEN Commandments remain and apply to Christians.

Which is why it would be helpful if you could answer the questions addressed to you in the OP.

This scripture shows Paul himself going to reason with unsaved Jews in their synagogue.

AND the text says they "those that heard were believing" still attending since the text says nothing except "every Sabbath" they were hearing Gospel preaching in the Synagogue (which you might be saying had nothing to do with Jesus as God for some reason) and as we see in Acts 13 not one command "those of you who believe - please join us tomorrow for our week-day-1 worship service".

 

[BobRyan]

Yes sir.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

The LAW that contains both the command to not take God's name in vain and the command to keep the Sabbath is found in the TEN Commandments which you already agreed is for Christians and not confined to just the Old Testament.j

That is the LAW known to Jeremiah and his readers as he informs us that under the NEW Covenant "God will write His LAW on the heart and mind" in Jeremiah 31. I think we both agree on that point.

(Still waiting for you to address the questions for you as posted in the OP)

 

[BobRyan]

Do you put to death those who violate the Sabbath according to the law of Moses?
JLB

A civil law only valid under a theocracy as your own pro-Sunday pro-Ten Commandment scholars all agree.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

(Still waiting for you to address the questions for you as posted in the OP)

 

[JLB777]

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

Every Sabbath UNSAVED Jews and Gentiles met on the Sabbath.

So what else is new Bob?


There is nothing what so ever here that shows us Paul commanding the Church to gather on the Sabbath to worship Jesus.

If you want to go to a synagogue with unsaved Jews to worship Jesus, Bob, then go for it.

You will likely be the only one.


JLB

 

[Original Happy Camper]

"For if that First Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the Second" (Hebrews 8:7)

Would you please address the question that I posed to you, I will repeat it here for you.

Your statement changes the law of GOD does it not?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

That certainly doesn’t mean the law of Moses is still in effect, since it was nailed to the cross and taken out of the way having become obsolete, in the light of the New Covenant.

Jesus Christ wrote the Ten Commandments with his own finger and spoke them. So why do you call them the law of Moses instead of the Law of GOD?
Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Jesus Christ was nailed to the Cross as the Lamb of GOD thus fulfilling the law of the Sanctuary as given to Moses on the Mountain. The Royal Law, the civil law and the dietary laws are still in effect.

The Royal law is supposed to be written on the hearts of people of the new covenant, however they appear to only allow nine of them to be written on their hearts.

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast - the actual Bible.

Matthew 19 Christ quoting from the TEN
Eph 6:2 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Romans 13 - Paul quoting from the TEN
James 2 - James quoting from the TEN
Romans 7 - Paul quoting from the TEN
Mark 7:6-13 - Christ quoting from the TEN

BobRyan said: ↑
Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

Every Sabbath UNSAVED Jews and Gentiles met on the Sabbath.

So what else is new Bob?

"AND those who HEARD - believed and were baptized" - but still meet "every Sabbath" as the only meetings for worship that we see in Acts 18:4 -- "every Sabbath"

BobRyan said: ↑
Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath"

You add - "So what else is new Bob?"

Actually I too am pretty happy with that fact -- if that is what you mean.

There is nothing what so ever here that shows us Paul commanding the Church to gather on the Sabbath

There is nothing here where Paul instructs us that God's commandments are now deleted and only Paul's commands are valid --