CF Vision

[Nadiine]

Well I think it does matter (seeing as truth is displaying love) but it's
nothing I'm going to continue going into here.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm bemused by the idea put forward that possible new members might be driven off by a little looseness in accepting people of varying Christian belief sets while various sections of the site are home to a frightening number of people with really aberrant views. A quick skim through Christian Current Affairs (and none of us dirty agnostics and atheists are allowed to sully the waters there!) would be enough to convince many sane and prudent people not to join.

In the past few days there have been members hinting by use of hebrew homophones with his name that Barack Obama may be the antiChrist, people insisting that the works of well-known Chicano artist Leo Tanguma are full of horrifying symbolism revealing dark plots (I'm sure this would interest Mr. Tanguma, and I may contact him in this regard out of courtesy -I wouldn't want my own paintings discussed in this way), people suggesting the US military will exercise martial law in the fall (this included ignoring the protest and informative words of an actual member of the armed forces), as well as many wild accusations of evil intent on the part of the government of the US.

Pauler et al are worried about a little Universalism when outright and possibly dangerous in some sense tinfoil hat-ism runs rampant through some of your boards.

Greetings and very nice post!

I think I can agree with you on your point concerning Universalism.

I would even go so far as to say that View pales in comparison to some of the stuff I see on the Eschatology board.

Since you brought up Obama, I decided to see how many threads there are on the Eschatology board concerning him and the "endtimes".

I just hope atheists and non-Christians do not peruse that board very ofter after seeing some of the rather "wild" views presented on it

Showing results of "Obama" 1 to 25 of 30 on Eschatology board

Eschatology - Christian Forums
Eschatology

http://www.christianforums.com/t7265823/
Is obama the antichrist?

 

[Nadiine]

before anyone goes crazy on it,
I saw Jack Van Impe on his program a few
wks ago say that it's very possible w/
the antichrist thing.
Not saying it makes it legit, only that
it's been on tv from a ministry that does
have some credibility in accuracy w/ prophecy

(biblically however, I don't see it as possible)
Still, there is some reason this is being floated.

But there's a HUGE difference from speculation
to heresy or false teaching depending on doctrines.
& Universalism is allowed at CF in the proper
forum: Unorthodox.

 

[Tissue]

Since I can't get a timely Staff response anywhere else (and the PM system only puts me in touch with one at a time, which isn't terribly helpful), I'll bring it up here, since the topic has swayed in this direction.

The new movement of Universalism being placed in Unorthodox Theology is a joke, and here's why: The Nicene Creed was generated in an atmosphere of Universalism.

Let us distinguish between two types of Universalists: Those who believe that all will simply be saved the moment they die, regardless of their actions in this life (Let's call them Type 1 Universalists), and those who believe that all will be judged at death, and that some will enter heaven and some will enter hell, but that hell's duration is not eternal (Let's call them Type 2 Universalists).

Type 1 Universalism is quite clearly counter to the Nicene Creed, upon the line '[Jesus] will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead'. Type 1 Universalists deny a judgment. However, Type 2 Universalists absolutely affirm judgment; in fact, they consider the existence of hell absolutely NECESSARY. I have never, ever met a Type 1 Universalist on CF though perhaps there are a few out there). Every Universalist I have talked to is a Type 2 Universalist. My own sympathies lie with Type 2.

A Type 2 Universalist can read and affirm the entirety of the Nicene Creed in exactly the same way that any other 'Christian', who is allowed to post in the entirety of the Theology boards, can. The idea that the Nicene Creed denies the validity of Type 2 Universalism shows that Staff, in their decision-making, didn't dig very deep into the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation.

At any rate, even Augustine (the man who fought with great ferocity against Universalism) admitted that it is orthodox (City of God, xii: 17), and that a 'great many brethren' believe it (Enchiridion cxii). The majority of major theological schools prior to about 500 AD were Universalist in nature (New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII p. 96)

Timeline:

Nicene Creed first adopted - 325
Revised and Expanded Nicene Creed - 381
Augustine's publication of City of God - Shortly after 410
Augustine's publication of Enchiridion - Shortly after 420

As is quite clearly seen, if Augustine is to be trusted, then a 'great many' believers were Universalists, and the majority of theological schools were Universalist, prior to and following the development of the Nicene Creed. This is why I find it rather preposterous that Universalism is supposed by Staff to run counter to the Nicene Creed. If that is what is taken as the SoF, then Universalism must be declared orthodoxy.

If Staff will be deleting this, please point me out to a separate venue where this matter can be discussed amongst a large number of Staff members in a timely manner. I have posted this elsewhere and have gotten only naggling responses.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

before anyone goes crazy on it,
I saw Jack Van Impe on his program a few
wks ago say that it's very possible w/
the antichrist thing.
Not saying it makes it legit, only that
it's been on tv from a ministry that does
have some credibility in accuracy w/ prophecy

(biblically however, I don't see it as possible)
Still, there is some reason this is being floated.

But there's a HUGE difference from speculation
to heresy or false teaching.
Universalism is allowed at CF in the proper
forum: Unorthodox.

Universalism would also seem to contradict Romans 9:27, as stated here only a Remnant would be save of "israel". Correct?

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant shall be being Saved'". [Daniel 12:1/Romans 11:26]

 

[Nadiine]

The new movement of Universalism being placed in Unorthodox Theology is a joke, and here's why: The Nicene Creed was generated in an atmosphere of Universalism.

Tissue, I think you're confusing a doctrine of universalism with
unity or tolerance of people in general. The boards have kept
an orthodox view of Christianity
(and if you don't mind me chiming in my 5 cents, if universalism
IS true, there's no reason to try to get it spread further since
everyone will get to the same place anyways no matter if they
hear your message or not) =)~

I think I'm going to have to unsubscribe at this point since as I
read over the OP, it doesn't seem to warrent where this is going
and I'm unsure about the direction.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Tissue, I think you're confusing a doctrine of universalism with
unity or tolerance of people in general. The boards have kept
an orthodox view of Christianity

Universalism would also seem to contradict Romans 9:27, as stated here only a Remnant would be save of "israel". Correct?

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant shall be being Saved'". [Daniel 12:1/Romans 11:26]

Reve 20:15/14:11 also seems to dispel the view of Universalism I would think.....

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 20:15 And if any not was found in the scroll of the Life having been written, he was cast into the lake of the fire.

Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them into ages of ages is ascending,

 

[Bombila]

before anyone goes crazy on it,
I saw Jack Van Impe on his program a few
wks ago say that it's very possible w/
the antichrist thing.
Not saying it makes it legit, only that
it's been on tv from a ministry that does
have some credibility in accuracy w/ prophecy

(biblically however, I don't see it as possible)
Still, there is some reason this is being floated.

But there's a HUGE difference from speculation
to heresy or false teaching depending on doctrines.
& Universalism is allowed at CF in the proper
forum: Unorthodox.

You think van Impe has credibility?

You most certainly live in a different world than I.

There is no reason the idea of Obama as antichrist is being floated other than absurdity and the fact a lot of religious tin-foil-hattists don't like him - you just said yourself it isn't Biblically likely, and so it's likely those people are 'false teaching'.

Besides, that is just one of the crazy notions being 'floated' in CCA and elsewhere on this board. If it was just harmless crackpottery I wouldn't even bring it up, but there were posts approaching libel and slander wrt to Mr. Tanguma, and the accusations against the US military were jaw-dropping, and certainly hurtful to the many armed forces members using this site.

Yet your priority is to send certain 'heresies' to the cellar and gag them on the rest of the board. Half your members don't think Catholics are even Christians - going to smack them with a gag order as well?

 

[Tissue]

One of the funniest books in my collection.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

One of the funniest books in my collection.

They are a dime a dozen
For the record, I never read one Endtime Prophecy book since coming to Jesus nor do I listen to TV Evangelicals..........

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:

Jack Van Impe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*snip*......Van Impe does not claim to know the exact date of the Second Coming of Christ, but quotes verses which imply that humankind should know when the second coming is near and he recently pointed to 2012 as a possible date for the second coming. Prior to January 1, 2000, Van Impe frequently predicted widespread catastrophe resulting from the Y2K problem, which he believed was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. His predictions, however, proved inaccurate.....

 

[katallasso]

I'm wondering what the rebuttals have to do with our theology lining up with the Nicene Creed?

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man. He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. And He rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures. And He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets. In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Love,
kat

 

[InkBlott]

I'm wondering what the rebuttals have to do with our theology lining up with the Nicene Creed?

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man. He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. And He rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures. And He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets. In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Love,
kat

If I understand correctly, the Nicene creed is the mythos*. Historically, Christianity is also interested in the logos**. We are discussing both, I think.

Now that you have affirmed the creed, how will its application look on CF, particularly as you live it out? I think that's a very interesting question.


* The interrelated set of beliefs, attitudes, and values held, in this case, by orthodox Christians. (This word, as used by me in the sentence above, is not in any way meant to imply judgment as to the validity of the creed's truth claims.)

** The fleshing out of the mythos. It's practical application, as it were.

 

[kiwimac]

What place does a discussion of the filioque have here?

 

[Nadiine]

unsubscribing - don't need to read this stuff

 

[Tissue]

Thanks for letting us all know, Nadiine. *thumbs up*

 

[scraparcs]

Mod Hat​

This topic is not about various theologies, it is strictly to discuss the CF Vision. Please remain within those parameters.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If I understand correctly, the Nicene creed is the mythos*. Historically, Christianity is also interested in the logos**. We are discussing both, I think.

Now that you have affirmed the creed, how will its application look on CF, particularly as you live it out? I think that's a very interesting question.


* The interrelated set of beliefs, attitudes, and values held, in this case, by orthodox Christians. (This word, as used by me in the sentence above, is not in any way meant to imply judgment as to the validity of the creed's truth claims.)

** The fleshing out of the mythos. It's practical application, as it were.

I believe that is also an interesting question

Creeds of Christendom


What is a Creed?

• 1: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
  2: a set of fundamental beliefs
  3: a guiding principle

The Creeds and Confessions produced by the Christian Church over the centuries are not inspired additions to Scripture nor in any way replacements for the words of Christ and his apostles or the prophets which preceded them. Instead these human documents are carefully considered and usually thoughtfully worded responses to various issues, heresies and historical situations that have troubled the Church and the world over the centuries.

Creeds are statements of faith that are true and authoritative insofar as they accurately reflect what Scripture teaches. Those linked here have been found useful either by the entire Church or by important segments and/or denominations of it over the ages. They are thus helpful "measuring sticks" for orthodoxy. Canons but not the canon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creed

A creed is a statement of belief—usually religious belief—or faith often recited as part of a religious service. The word derives from the Latin: credo for I believe and credimus for we believe. It is sometimes called symbol (Greek: σύμβολο[ν]), signifying a "token" by which persons of like beliefs might recognize each other.
The most definitive creed in Christianity is the Nicene Creed, formulated in AD 325 at the First Council of Nicaea. Affirmation of this creed, which describes the Trinity, is generally taken as a fundamental test of orthodoxy.[1] The Apostle's Creed is also broadly accepted.

Some denominations, including Unitarians, Quakers, Baptists, Messianics, and Restorationists, have rejected the authority of those creeds.[citation needed]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What place does a discussion of the filioque have here?

Who was discussing that? Just curious

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filoque

Filioque, Latin for "and (from) the Son", was added in Western Christianity to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. This insertion emphasizes that Jesus, the Son, is of equal divinity with God, the Father, while the absence of it in Eastern Christianity emphasizes that the Father is the only one cause of the two other persons.

 

[InkBlott]

I believe that is also an interesting question

Creeds of Christendom


What is a Creed?

• 1: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
  2: a set of fundamental beliefs
  3: a guiding principle

The Creeds and Confessions produced by the Christian Church over the centuries are not inspired additions to Scripture nor in any way replacements for the words of Christ and his apostles or the prophets which preceded them. Instead these human documents are carefully considered and usually thoughtfully worded responses to various issues, heresies and historical situations that have troubled the Church and the world over the centuries.

Creeds are statements of faith that are true and authoritative insofar as they accurately reflect what Scripture teaches. Those linked here have been found useful either by the entire Church or by important segments and/or denominations of it over the ages. They are thus helpful "measuring sticks" for orthodoxy. Canons but not the canon.

Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A creed is a statement of belief—usually religious belief—or faith often recited as part of a religious service. The word derives from the Latin: credo for I believe and credimus for we believe. It is sometimes called symbol (Greek: σύμβολο[ν]), signifying a "token" by which persons of like beliefs might recognize each other.
The most definitive creed in Christianity is the Nicene Creed, formulated in AD 325 at the First Council of Nicaea. Affirmation of this creed, which describes the Trinity, is generally taken as a fundamental test of orthodoxy.[1] The Apostle's Creed is also broadly accepted.

Some denominations, including Unitarians, Quakers, Baptists, Messianics, and Restorationists, have rejected the authority of those creeds.[citation needed]

Thank you, LLoJ!

I tend, in short, to think of historic Christian creeds as concise little stories we tell ourselves about what the Bible says (or in their earliest forms should say). Most (if not all) of these concise little stories were written with the agenda of combating heresies. As such, they are useful as far as they go, but are always going to be less interesting than the full sweep of the biblical narrative, the richness of Christian history (heresies, orthodoxy and all) or the immediacy of one's interaction with any particular Christian.

The Nicene Creed is actually not unlike the free map of my town produced by the local chamber of commerce. It's a rather concise little story about the town, produced for a particular purpose, quite accurate as far as it goes. But it will never tell me what I will see this afternoon on and about the creek as I take my walk across the three footbridges it highlights, much less describe for me in full sensual detail and serendipitous whimsy the experience of visiting our local music festival (or even our local Wal-mart ).

That's why I asked katallasso how her living out of the creed will look here on CF, not to pick on her but because that's really what is in question here. Iisn't it? Pauler has his vision. Katillasso has hers. I have mine. How is this all going to work together: the rules, the staff, Pauler's vision, the creed, all of us and our individual wants and needs and hopes (large or small) brought to this virtual place? What will emerge from this amalgum?

Whether we imagine the result as being led by the Holy Spirit or emerging out of forces and eddies of a more naturalistic nature, I don't imagine any of us are wise enough to predict or even perceive in its fullness the unfolding of it all. That has been a difficult lesson for me to learn. In fact I do not know if I have actually learned it yet. I hope I have and thus my return here after a one year hiatus.

I suppose what I am winding up to say is that I hope we can all be as gentle with one another and this process as we are able. We are all human beings, sometimes fragile and always of inestimable worth. The map is not the town. The creed is not Christianity being lived out. Mythos is not Logos.

I see some dissatisfaction in this last page as to how this topic is progressing. I hope I have not added to that sense of dissatisfaction.

 

[MattLangley]

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matt 22:36-40

A very good reference of scriptures. Jesus pointed these out as the two most important, that all of the law hangs on these two.

Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself. As a Universalist I do not feel the current board rules limiting me (even though I love God) express this, in fact if anything the opposite.

It's not love your neighbors as yourself... except if they disagree with what you believe... except if you really just don't feel like it. That's not what Jesus said.