Cessationism vs. Continuationism vs. Restorationism - which one is supported by history?

TruthSeek3r · Aug 17, 2022

bbbbbbb said:
Transubstantiation to mention, but one. As I noted above there are crying and/or bleeding statues, as well.

Can you back it up with historical sources? #citationneeded

bbbbbbb · Aug 17, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
Can you back it up with historical sources? #citationneeded

Here 'ya go -

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia

Although this miracle happens at each and every mass, there is physical proof here - Miracle of Lanciano - Wikipedia

I like the miracle of Loreto where God sent His angels to the Holy land to transport the boyhood home of Jesus Christ and reconstructed it in Loreto, Italy. Now that is a miracle! Loreto, Marche - Wikipedia

Here is a weeping statue miracle - Blessed Mary’s Statue Weeps Again In Guadalupe. Nsugbe, Enugu And Umunya Also In Overview - Dez Mayorz

Here are some bleeding statues in India - Why become a Catholic: Miracle of the bleeding crucifix and a recent convert from Islam to Christianity (christtotheworld.blogspot.com)

Then there is the famous blinking crucifix - Blinking Crucifix | Unsolved Mysteries Wiki | Fandom

Receivedgrace · Aug 17, 2022

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Those who will not believe the bible will believe everything else.

RDKirk · Aug 17, 2022

bbbbbbb said:
Absolutely. My point is that the Catholic Church is not necessarily a good model to examine because it embraces miracles on a continuous basis. At the very moment I am typing this the great miracle of transubstantiation is happening.

There would not be any historical testimony of a miracle that would meet the belief requirements of a cessationist.

bbbbbbb · Aug 17, 2022

RDKirk said:
There would not be any historical testimony of a miracle that would meet the belief requirements of a cessationist.

Quite true.

bbbbbbb · Aug 17, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Those who will not believe the bible will believe everything else.

Also quite true.

Guojing · Aug 17, 2022

ByTheSpirit said:
That’s not what I asked, nor what the OP asked. You can have your own personal beliefs and opinions on the topic, but what was asked was what do you believe based off of scripture and historical context. See my first reply to get an idea of the kind of response that is looked for.

You are not the TS in the first place. It should be him that decides whether or not my post fits into the theme of his.

But since you replied to that post of mine, I was trying to be courteous by engaging with you.

Guojing · Aug 17, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
I'll take the biblical point of view.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away
Sign gifts not all the gifts passed away with the completion of the New Testament.

You may find this discussion thread interesting

Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming... | Christian Forums

Saint Steven · Aug 18, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Faith comes by hearing the word of God not by signs and wonders.

How do we preach with "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power"?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Receivedgrace · Aug 18, 2022

Saint Steven said:
How do we preach with "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power"?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Have you never seen the Holy Spirit moving in the heart of a lost soul? John 16:8-11 is a demonstration of Holy Spirit power that is biblically sound.

TruthSeek3r · Aug 18, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
For me it was a matter of seeing what the scripture is saying in it's context. Perfect is not directly referring to without flaw as the word may imply in English. It is referring to complete. The partial was the OT and with the completion of the NT we have the complete revelation of God for man.

Recommended article: Don’t Use 1 Corinthians 13:8 to Argue for Cessationism

Receivedgrace said:
Faith comes by hearing the word of God not by signs and wonders.

What would you say to the early church?

29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:29-31 ESV)

What would you say to Paul?

18 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; (Romans 15:18-19 ESV)

TruthSeek3r · Aug 18, 2022

Back to historical sources, this is an interesting case from the 4th century:

Macarius of Egypt:

Macarius of Egypt (c. 300 – 391) was a Coptic Christian monk and hermit. He is also known as Macarius the Elder or Macarius the Great.

St. Macarius was born in Lower Egypt. A late tradition places his birthplace in the village of Shabsheer (Shanshour), Roman Egypt around 300 AD. At some point before his pursuit of asceticism, Macarius made his living smuggling saltpeter in the vicinity of Nitria, a vocation which taught him how to survive in and travel across the wastes in that area.[1]

--

Some highlights from a few sources

According to this source:

Dweller of the desert and angel in the body
you were shown to be a wonder-worker, our God-bearing Father Macarius.
You received heavenly gifts through fasting, vigil, and prayer:
healing the sick and the souls of those drawn to you by faith.
Glory to Him who gave you strength!
Glory to Him who granted you a crown!
Glory to Him who through you grants healing to all!

According to this source:

As a bride is not satisfied with her bridegroom’s gifts, but craves for the bridegroom himself, “so the soul … receives as an earnest from the Spirit gifts of healings, it may be, or of knowledge, or of revelation, but it is not satisfied with these, until it attains the complete union, namely charity, which can never change nor fail, and which sets those who have longed for it free from passion and from agitation” (XLV. 7).

According to this source (see bold text):

Until his parents died, Saint Macarius used his remaining substance to help them and he began to pray fervently that the Lord might show him a guide on the way to salvation. The Lord sent him an experienced Elder, who lived in the desert not far from the village. The Elder accepted the youth with love, guided him in the spiritual science of watchfulness, fasting and prayer, and taught him the handicraft of weaving baskets. After building a separate cell not far from his own, the Elder settled his disciple in it.

Saint Macarius survived many demonic attacks against him. Once, he was carrying palm branches for weaving baskets, and a devil met him on the way and wanted to strike him with a sickle, but he was not able to do this. He said, “Macarius, I suffer great anguish from you because I am unable to vanquish you. I do everything that you do. You fast, and I eat nothing at all. You keep vigil, and I never sleep. You surpass me only in one thing: humility.”

When the saint reached the age of forty, he was ordained to the priesthood and made the head of the monks living in the desert of Skete. During these years, Saint Macarius often visited with Saint Anthony the Great, receiving guidance from him in spiritual conversations. Abba Macarius was deemed worthy to be present at the death of Saint Anthony and he received his staff. He also received a double portion of the Anthony’s spiritual power, just as the prophet Elisha once received a double portion of the grace of the prophet Elias, along with the mantle that he dropped from the fiery chariot.

Saint Macarius worked many healings. People thronged to him from various places for help and for advice, asking his holy prayers. All this unsettled the quietude of the saint. He therefore dug out a deep cave under his cell, and hid there for prayer and meditation.

Saint Macarius attained such boldness before God that, through his prayers, the Lord raised the dead. Despite attaining such heights of holiness, he continued to preserve his unusual humility.

During the years of the reign of the Arian emperor Valens (364-378), Saint Macarius the Great and Saint Macarius of Alexandria were subjected to persecution by the followers of the Arian bishop Lucius. They seized both Elders and put them on a ship, sending them to an island where only pagans lived. By the prayers of the saints, the daughter of a pagan priest was delivered from an evil spirit. After this, the pagan priest and all the inhabitants of the island were baptized. When he heard what had happened, the Arian bishop feared an uprising and permitted the Elders to return to their monasteries.

Abba Macarius spent sixty years in the wilderness, being dead to the world. He spent most of his time in conversation with God, often in a state of spiritual rapture. But he never ceased to weep, to repent and to work. The saint’s profound theological writings are based on his own personal experience. Fifty Spiritual Homilies and seven Ascetic Treatises survive as the precious legacy of his spiritual wisdom. Several prayers composed by Saint Macarius the Great are still used by the Church in the Prayers Before Sleep and also in the Morning Prayers.

Saint Steven · Aug 18, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Have you never seen the Holy Spirit moving in the heart of a lost soul? John 16:8-11 is a demonstration of Holy Spirit power that is biblically sound.

Yes, but that is not what the Apostle is writing about.
He was supplying the demonstration. I know, I know... it's a very challenging thing. And it could be as simple as praying for someone who has a headache. (assuming the headache goes away)

Saint Steven said: ↑
How do we preach with "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power"?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Guojing · Aug 18, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Yes, but that is not what the Apostle is writing about.
He was supplying the demonstration. I know, I know... it's a very challenging thing. And it could be as simple as praying for someone who has a headache. (assuming the headache goes away)

Saint Steven said: ↑
How do we preach with "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power"?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Paul is saying he has preached with signs and wonders.

He is not saying we are therefore to do the same.

There is a reason why God gave Paul those signs and wonders, is to show to the nation of Israel he was sent by God to preach a new gospel among the gentiles (Acts 15:12).

Saint Steven · Aug 19, 2022

Guojing said:
Paul is saying he has preached with signs and wonders.

He is not saying we are therefore to do the same.

There is a reason why God gave Paul those signs and wonders, is to show to the nation of Israel he was sent by God to preach a new gospel among the gentiles (Acts 15:12).

That isn't the reason he gave in first Corinthians two. (see below)

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Guojing · Aug 19, 2022

Saint Steven said:
That isn't the reason he gave in first Corinthians two. (see below)

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Do you at least agree that passage "is not saying we are therefore to do the same"?

You are trying to read that into the passage.

I was using Acts 15:12 to justify my last point anyway, not this passage.

Saint Steven · Aug 20, 2022

Guojing said:
Do you at least agree that passage "is not saying we are therefore to do the same"?

You are trying to read that into the passage.

I was using Acts 15:12 to justify my last point anyway, not this passage.

Since you are a cessationist and I am a continuationist, we both read through our own lens.

Though first Corinthians two (see below) is not stated as a directive, it certainly indicates a right and wrong way to present the message. Which raises some serious questions about how we are doing it now.

A message presented with wise and "persuasive words" creates a faith that rests "on human wisdom". Whereas a message delivered with "a demonstration of the spirit's power" rests on "God's power". In fact, something supernatural happened that caused me to decided to follow Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Guojing · Aug 20, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Since you are a cessationist and I am a continuationist, we both read through our own lens.

Though first Corinthians two (see below) is not stated as a directive, it certainly indicates a right and wrong way to present the message. Which raises some serious questions about how we are doing it now.

A message presented with wise and "persuasive words" creates a faith that rests "on human wisdom". Whereas a message delivered with "a demonstration of the spirit's power" rests on "God's power". In fact, something supernatural happened that caused me to decided to follow Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

I see, so your reasoning is

Paul stated in 1 Cor 2:4-5 that his preaching came with signs and wonders.

Therefore, if we are preaching the same gospel as Paul, we also need to make sure our preaching also comes with signs and wonders

Is that the correct understanding of what you are saying?

Saint Steven · Aug 21, 2022

Guojing said:
I see, so your reasoning is

Paul stated in 1 Cor 2:4-5 that his preaching came with signs and wonders.

Therefore, if we are preaching the same gospel as Paul, we also need to make sure our preaching also comes with signs and wonders

Is that the correct understanding of what you are saying?

I appreciate the way you handle these polarized discussions. Very respectful. Thanks.
Instead of blasting me with a rebuttal, you want to understand where I am coming from.
I wish everyone did that.

In reply to your post, I would say the short answer is: "Yes" (but needs clarification)

The verse reads "a demonstration of the spirit's power", not "signs and wonders".
What I get from this scripture is that there needs to be a spiritual component in our preaching, rather than a purely religious/philosophical message. Basically the use of any of the manifestations of the Spirit that indicate an obvious spiritual component. Speaking in tongues would be enough.

For evangelism, I really like Kevin Dedmon's treasure hunt.
https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Treasure-Hunt-Supernatural-Evangelism/dp/0768426022

Saint Steven wrote:
A message presented with wise and "persuasive words" creates a faith that rests "on human wisdom". Whereas a message delivered with "a demonstration of the spirit's power" rests on "God's power". In fact, something supernatural happened that caused me to decided to follow Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Guojing · Aug 22, 2022

Saint Steven said:
I appreciate the way you handle these polarized discussions. Very respectful. Thanks.
Instead of blasting me with a rebuttal, you want to understand where I am coming from.
I wish everyone did that.

In reply to your post, I would say the short answer is: "Yes" (but needs clarification)

The verse reads "a demonstration of the spirit's power", not "signs and wonders".
What I get from this scripture is that there needs to be a spiritual component in our preaching, rather than a purely religious/philosophical message. Basically the use of any of the manifestations of the Spirit that indicate an obvious spiritual component. Speaking in tongues would be enough.

For evangelism, I really like Kevin Dedmon's treasure hunt.
https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Treasure-Hunt-Supernatural-Evangelism/dp/0768426022

Saint Steven wrote:
A message presented with wise and "persuasive words" creates a faith that rests "on human wisdom". Whereas a message delivered with "a demonstration of the spirit's power" rests on "God's power". In fact, something supernatural happened that caused me to decided to follow Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

That is always my basic approach to discussing Christian doctrine on such forums, I hope you were not surprised. =)

Yes, you are not the first to use 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 and interpret in this manner. When I engaged with Word of Faith preacher Barry Bennett of Charis Bible College, he did that as well.

Cessationism vs. Continuationism vs. Restorationism - which one is supported by history?

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