Certainty Jesus Returns No Later than 2023

[Markusanthem]

The bowls of wrath do not start at the 6th Seal.

1 Thessalonians 1.10 “The wrath to come” - This is the Great Tribulation. Since the Lord Jesus will deliver us from the wrath to come, we must be raptured before the Great Tribulation. Also, 1 Thessalonians 5.9 “For God appointed us not unto wrath” - Once again this “wrath” has reference to the Great Tribulation. Let me say, though, that such an interpretation of “wrath” here as being the Great Tribulation is incorrect. How do we know that this wrath must necessarily be the wrath in the Great Tribulation? And even if it were granted that it is, such an interpretation of this word “wrath” would still be unreasonable because the Great Tribulation, on the one hand, is God’s punishment and wrath coming upon the unbelievers, and on the other hand is Satan’s attack and wrath descending on the believers. When Satan assaults the believers, the latter enter into the experience of the Great Tribulation but do not come under the wrath of God.

Jesus said the tribulation ends before wrath begins.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It doesn't get any clearer than that.

 

[Markusanthem]

What then is the danger of claiming the 3 1/2 years of the first half of the Tribulation already occurred? The danger, of course, is you will miss the signs of when the Tribulation begin and be caught up in it. You have echoed the same sentiment already in which you think you will be raptured before the Tribulation because you think appointed not unto wrath means avoiding the day the Tribulation starts. Not so.

There is no scripture that says the "tribulation" lasts seven years. That is fiction.

Tribulation does not equal wrath.

Jesus said the tribulation is over before wrath begins.

We have all endured the tribulation which Jesus said began after the Romans sacked Israel (abomination of desolation). It is the wrath that we are not appointed to suffer.

 

[watchfulChristian]

Dan. 9.25 and 9.26a deals with the coming of the Messiah and atonement--Jesus "cut off". What follows in the rest of 9.26 is the "people of the [coming Antichrist] prince" who will "destroy the city and the sanctuary." The Roman people are not Jesus' people. Then verse 27 says the same prince (not the Messiah prince) will make a treaty or confirm A (not The New) "covenant" with the Jews for "one unit of seven" or 7 years. This is Daniel's 70th seven. He will cause "sacrifices to cease" because Israel reinstituted them again. Desolations follow for three and a half years to the return of Jesus. The Antichrist tries to mimic Jesus, for as Jesus was the fulfilment of the sacrifices, the Antichrist will try to do the same. This important aspect goes overlooked by many.

The problem with placing Dan. 9.27 at the cross, of course, is that places verse 27 after the temple is destroyed in verse 26. That makes no sense. So one would have to squeeze the text and reorder things to make it say what you want it to say. Daniel is giving a sequence of events. Daniel addresses the Antichrist but this alternate view does not. That is a problem since clearly the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2.4) will erect himself in the Temple so he should be mentioned. Naturally Daniel addresses the Antichrist as "the prince." People might get another idea what the Antichrist, yet he is the cause of desolation.

The 69 sevens are dealt with in vv. 25,26 leaving "one week" for the 70th seven. Jesus never confirmed a covenant for 7 years. He confirmed THE NEW Covenant for 3 years in His ministry. Dan. 9.27 said there would be desolations to the end, but Israel is not desolate today. They are a nation again. Their Temple will be built soon. Their land is flowing with milk and honey and are great exporters of fruit. Dan. 9.26 says "war and desolations are determined" rather than being left desolate. Thus, after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, Gabriel allows for Israel to be a nation again before ACTUALLY being left desolate "until the consummation" (v.27).

If it was true Jesus was cut off in the middle of the 70th seven then it shouldn't have said the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th seven for that would be misleading since "cut off" after the 69th seven should be shortly, not years later. We know from Nisan 1, 444 BC (Neh. 2.1), the declaration to rebuild the Temple, the 173,880th day (69 x 7 x 360) is March 28, 33 AD--the 1st day of the 4 day inspection of the Lamb. Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD, Passover, Friday, Nisan 14, April Fool's Day. No such date exists in the few years prior to 33 AD to land on Friday, Passover, Nisan 14. This data does not agree with this alternate reading of Daniel 9. The 69th seven and the 70th seven do not overlap by 3 1/2 years. That would be inconsistent with the 69 sevens.

By the way what is this alternate reading of Daniel called? We should give a name to or label those who believe this other view so we can be protected from them.

 

[Markusanthem]

Dan. 9.25 and 9.26a deals with the coming of the Messiah and atonement--Jesus "cut off". What follows in the rest of 9.26 is the "people of the [coming Antichrist] prince" who will "destroy the city and the sanctuary." The Roman people are not Jesus' people. Then verse 27 says the same prince (not the Messiah prince) will make a treaty or confirm A (not The New) "covenant" with the Jews for "one unit of seven" or 7 years. This is Daniel's 70th seven. He will cause "sacrifices to cease" because Israel reinstituted them again. Desolations follow for three and a half years to the return of Jesus.

God said He sent the Romans (daughter of Babylon) to destroy Israel. (Isaiah 47)
He referred to them as "his armies". (Matt 22)

There is no 7-year treaty and verse 27 doesn't even say there it.

"The covenant is confirmed with many for seven years" does not equal "a seven-year treaty is confirmed".

Jesus uses seven years to confirm the new covenant with many of Israel.

The problem with placing Dan. 9.27 at the cross, of course, is that places verse 27 after the return of Jesus in verse 25, cut off in verse 26 and temple destroyed in verse 26. That makes no sense. So one would have to squeeze the text and reorder things to make it say what you want it to say. Daniel is giving a sequence of events. Daniel addresses the Antichrist but this view this other view does not. That is problematic since clearly the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2.4) will erect himself in the Temple. Naturally Daniel addresses the Antichrist as "the prince." People might get another idea what the Antichrist if he is left out who is the cause of desolation. The 69 sevens are dealt with in vv. 25,26, leaving "one week" for the 70th seven. Jesus never confirmed a covenant for 7 years. He confirmed a covenant for 3 years in His ministry. Dan. 9.27 said there would be desolations to the end, but Israel is not desolate today. They are a nation again. Their Temple will be built soon too. Their land is flowing with milk and honey and are great exporters of fruit. Dan. 9.26 says "war and desolations are determined" not left desolate, so after the Temple is destroyed it allows for Israel to be a nation again before being left desolate "until the consummation" (v.27).

The antichrist is not mentioned in Daniel 9.

The antichrist will not destroy the city and the temple. Jesus already sent the Romans to do that.
There is no scriptue that says the antichrist will destroy the city and the temple anywhere.

If it was true Jesus was cut off in the middle of the 70th seven then it shouldn't have said the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th seven for that would be misleading since "cut off" after the 69th seven should be shortly, not years later. We know from Nisan 1, 444 BC (Neh. 2.1) the 173,880th day (69 x 7 x 360) is March 28, 33 AD, the 1st day of the 4 day inspection of the Lamb. Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD, Passover, Friday, April Fool's Day. This data does not agree with this other view. The 69th seven and the 70th seven do not overlap by 3 1/2 years. That would be inconsistent with the 69 sevens.

Messiah did arrive after at the end of 69 weeks.

Messiah was cut off after the 69th week, during the middle of the 70th week.

Messiah was here (and will be here) for the 70th week.

He was sent to Israel. He confirmed the covenant with many of Israel.

By the way what do you call your particular view? Does it have a name? You should give it a name so people can identify you.

Yes, yes it does.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[watchfulChristian]

Jesus confirms the New Covenant with many of Israel for seven years.

Rephrase: Jesus takes seven years (the 70th week) to confirm the New Covenant with Israel.

3 1/2 of that seven years is complete with the ministry of Jesus.
3 1/2 of that seven years remains outstanding and is found in Revelation with the sealing of the 144,000 of Israel.

You appear to be obsessed with the unscriptural idea that there is some 7-year treaty by the antichrist. That is fiction. No scripture says that.

What I believe is you will be deceived by the Antichrist because you deny his treaty of 7 years. In fact you may mistake him for Jesus because you claim it is Jesus' covenant when it is really the Antichrist's. Interesting.

Jesus never confirmed a covenant with anyone for 7 years, nor 3.5 years. If anything it was 3 years and 3 years only in His 3 year ministry.

You are obsessed with denying the existence of the Antichrist, but who can deny 2 Thess. 2.4?

 

[watchfulChristian]

Jesus said the tribulation ends before wrath begins.

Jesus never said that. Jesus said we are appointed not unto wrath. Just because a Christian enters the Tribulation doesn't mean God's wrath is on him. How silly.

The truth is the reason why many Christians will enter the Tribulation is because they did not keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), were not prayerful (Luke 21.36) and watchful (Matt. 24.40-42) so they don't get to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world. These are all conditional statements in these verses to be included in the 1st rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the 1st trumpet of the Tribulation begins.

As T. Austin Sparks said "there are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere" so it is with the timing of the raptures.

The first rapture is to the throne in 3rd heaven, whereas the rapture and resurrection at the start of the last trumpet is to the air (1 Thess. 4.14-18, Rev. 11.15, 14-16) before the bowls of wrath are poured contained in the 7th trumpet that lasts 24 months.

 

[Markusanthem]

What I believe is you will be deceived by the Antichrist because you deny his treaty of 7 years. In fact you may mistake him for Jesus because you claim it is Jesus' covenant when it is really the Antichrist's. Interesting.

Jesus never confirmed a covenant with anyone for 7 years, nor 3.5 years. If anything it was 3 years and 3 years only in His 3 year ministry.

You are obsessed with denying the existence of the Antichrist, but who can deny 2 Thess. 2.4?

Scripture confirms scripture.

Show me a scripture that confirms your ficticious belief that there is some 7-year antichrist treaty. There isn't one.

I have proven with scripture that Daniel 9 is talking about Jesus and the New Covenant.

(Of course the antichrist exists. But he isn't mentioned in Daniel 9)

 

[watchfulChristian]

There is no scripture that says the "tribulation" lasts seven years. That is fiction.

Tribulation does not equal wrath.

Jesus said the tribulation is over before wrath begins.

We have all endured the tribulation which Jesus said began after the Romans sacked Israel (abomination of desolation). It is the wrath that we are not appointed to suffer.

Rev. 9.1 is the start of the Great Tribulation and we know the Great Tribulation is 42 months: 5 months for the 1st woe, 13 months for the 2nd woe, leaving 24 months for the 3rd woe.

What then of the 4 trumpets in Rev. 8? They too are 42 months, since the final seven which has not started yet is a total of 2,520 days or 84 thirty day months and it is broken in the middle (Dan 9.27). Simple math says the middle would require 42 months before the middle.

The Tribulation does equal wrath, but the saints are not appointed unto wrath. The hope is the hope of beign received up before the wrath if we keep the word of His patience.

Jesus never said the Tribulation is over before the wrath begins. The wrath is the Tribulation.

Tribulations have been going on since the beginning with Adam and Eve. But the "Bowls of wrath" are distinctly referred to as such and the wrath even begins before that as Rev. 6.16 occurs before the Tribulation starts.

That is interesting to me too that you deny the coming Great Tribulation because you said the Tribulation is over before the wrath so you violate Rev. 9.16, 9.18. How strange that Tribulation is not wrath.

 

[Markusanthem]

Jesus never said that.

Yes, he did.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It doesn't get any clearer than that.

The truth is the reason why many Christians will enter the Tribulation is because they did not keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), were not prayerful (Luke 21.36) and watchful (Matt. 24.40-42) so they don't get to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world. These are all conditional statements in these verses to be included in the 1st rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the 1st trumpet of the Tribulation begins.

Every Christian has endured tribulation. We were told that we would. It is wrath that we are not appointed to suffer.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Rev 1:9¶I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[watchfulChristian]

God said He sent the Romans (daughter of Babylon) to destroy Israel. (Isaiah 47)
He referred to them as "his armies". (Matt 22)

He allows these armies, they are not His armies.

There is no 7-year treaty and verse 27 doesn't even say there it.

Verse 27 is a treaty of 7 years. The Antichrist is trying to replace the sacrifices with himself at midTrib.

"The covenant is confirmed with many for seven years" does not equal "a seven-year treaty is confirmed".

Yes it does.

Jesus uses seven years to confirm the new covenant with many of Israel.

Jesus never used 7 years. He used 3 years.

The antichrist is not mentioned in Daniel 9.

The prince in Dan. 9.26,27 is the Antichrist.

The antichrist will not destroy the city and the temple. Jesus already sent the Romans to do that.

I never said the Antichrist destroys the city and temple, but rather the people of the future Antichrist do. They have the same spirit.

There is no scriptue that says the antichrist will destroy the city and the temple anywhere.

I never said the Antichrist does this.

Messiah did arrive after at the end of 69 weeks.

No. The Messiah arrives years before the 69th seven. The Messiah is cut off 4 days after the 69th seven.

Messiah was cut off after the 69th week, during the middle of the 70th week.

Not during the middle of the 70th week, but before the 70th week, after the 69th.

Messiah was here (and will be here) for the 70th week.

No. The Messiah returns when the 70th seven is done, then peace (Dan. 9.24).

He was sent to Israel. He confirmed the covenant with many of Israel.

Antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel for 7 years.

Yes, yes it does.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That's not a name. For example, my view is called Partial Rapture. I guess nobody has thought up a name for your view.

 

[Markusanthem]

Rev. 9.1 is the start of the Great Tribulation and we know the Great Tribulation is 42 months: 5 months for the 1st woe, 13 months for the 2nd woe, leaving 24 months for the 3rd woe.

No, it doesn't say that, now does it?

The 144,000 are sealed before the 1st trumpet.

The church is standing before the throne, praising God for salvation, when the 144,000 are sealed.

The 6th seal is when the heavenly bodies (sun/moon) are darkened.

Jesus said the tribulation ends and wrath begins when the heavenly bodies are darkened.

What then of the 4 trumpets in Rev. 8? They too are 42 months, since the final seven which has not started yet is a total of 2,520 days or 84 thirty day months and it is broken in the middle (Dan 9.27). Simple math says the middle would require 42 months before the middle.

No, it doesn't say that.

Jesus said "immediately after the tribulation", the sun/moon/stars/shaking occurs which is at the 6th seal when wrath begins.

The Tribulation does equal wrath, but the saints are not appointed unto wrath. The hope is the hope of beign received up before the wrath if we keep the word of His patience.

No, Jesus was clear. Tribulation ends before wrath begins.

Jesus never said the Tribulation is over before the wrath begins. The wrath is the Tribulation.

Again, right here:

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Tribulations have been going on since the beginning with Adam and Eve. But the "Bowls of wrath" are distinctly referred to as such and the wrath even begins before that as Rev. 6.16 occurs before the Tribulation starts.

The bowls of wrath are just that: bowls poured out during wrath on the Day of Wrath.

That is interesting to me too that you deny the coming Great Tribulation because you said the Tribulation is over before the wrath so you violate Rev. 9.16, 9.18. How strange that Tribulation is not wrath.

We are in the tribulation. It is wrath that is coming.

I'm not the one who said the tribulation is over before wrath, Jesus said it.

Everything after the 6th seal is occuring on the day of wrath, according to Jesus.

 

[watchfulChristian]

Scripture confirms scripture.

Show me a scripture that confirms your ficticious belief that there is some 7-year antichrist treaty. There isn't one.

I have proven with scripture that Daniel 9 is talking about Jesus and the New Covenant.

(Of course the antichrist exists. But he isn't mentioned in Daniel 9)

Matt. 24.15 and 2 Thess. 2.4 and the 3 woes of 42 months, leaving 42 months for the first four trumpets. Simple.

Daniel 9 I have proven to you is talking about Jesus and the Antichrist.

You will be deceived by the Antichrist thinking he is Jesus; that's the direct consequence of your view. Holocaust is not part of The New Covenant. You're sorely mistake.

 

[watchfulChristian]

Yes, he did.
It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Where do these verses say a person who is saved can't enter the 7 year Tribulation?

Every Christian has endured tribulation. We were told that we would. It is wrath that we are not appointed to suffer.

Who said the Smyrna church period in the 2nd century of martyrdoms is not appointed to suffer?

Not appointed unto God's wrath doesn't mean a person doesn't receive Satan's wrath or that concurrently when God's wrath is occuring a Christian can't be on the planet. How silly.

 

[Markusanthem]

Matt. 24.15 and 2 Thess. 2.4 and the 3 woes of 42 months, leaving 42 months for the first four trumpets. Simple.

It says nothing of the sort.

Daniel 9 I have proven to you is talking about Jesus and the Antichrist.

Prove that there is an antichrist 7-year treaty. There is always a verifying scripture to everything because God says things more than once.
So, show it to me.

You will be deceived by the Antichrist thinking he is Jesus; that's the direct consequence of your view. Holocaust is not part of The New Covenant. You're sorely mistake.

Wow, you are completely ignorant of what God said in Ezekiel, Isaiah and others about what He was going to do to Israel and why and for how long.

God said He would destroy and desolate Israel until the time of the end - the holocaust was part of that.

Of course the Holocaust had nothing to do with the New Covenant. How bizarre that you would say such a thing!

 

[Markusanthem]

Who said the Smyrna church period in the 2nd century of martyrdoms is not appointed to suffer?

Not appointed unto God's wrath doesn't mean a person doesn't receive Satan's wrath or that concurrently when God's wrath is occuring a Christian can't be on the planet. How silly.

You need to study the God-given definition and distinction between tribulation and wrath.

Find out when tribulation began and when it ends and what it has included so far, according to God.
Find out when wrath begins and what is involved in it, according to God.

 

[watchfulChristian]

No, it doesn't say that, now does it?

Yes it does.

The 144,000 are sealed before the 1st trumpet.

Yes.

The church is standing before the throne, praising God for salvation, when the 144,000 are sealed.

Not the whole Church, just those who keep the word of His patience.

The 6th seal is when the heavenly bodies (sun/moon) are darkened.

The darkening is at the end of the last trumpet due to nuclear holocaust. Whereas at the 6th Seal is the H3 Hybrid Solar eclipse and the 2014/15 Tetrad.

Jesus said the tribulation ends and wrath begins when the heavenly bodies are darkened.

He never said that. Before the great and terrible day of the Lord is the unique solar and lunar eclipse (Rev. 6.12, Joel 2.31).

No, it doesn't say that.

Yes it does.

Jesus said "immediately after the tribulation", the sun/moon/stars/shaking occurs which is at the 6th seal when wrath begins.

"After the Tribulation" is the 7th Trumpet ended (Rev. 11.19). The 6th Seal occurs before the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal contains the 7 trumnpets of the Tribulation.

No, Jesus was clear. Tribulation ends before wrath begins.

Wrath is Tribulation.

Again, right here:

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

The "tribulation of those days" is the 70th seven.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Amen.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

It sure doesn't.

The bowls of wrath are just that: bowls poured out during wrath on the Day of Wrath.

The Tribulation contains the bowls of wrath.

We are in the tribulation. It is wrath that is coming.

The tribulation the past 20 centuries does not preclude the Tribulation of Daniel's final seven of wrath that is coming to make desolate.

I'm not the one who said the tribulation is over before wrath, Jesus said it.

Jesus never said Rev. 9.18 is not the Great Tribulation with its bowls of wrath.

Everything after the 6th seal is occuring on the day of wrath, according to Jesus.

Yes. This is the Tribulation of 2,520 days from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 to Tisha B'Av Aug. 7, 2022, then Jesus steps down on the mount of olives and judges the nations for 30 days from the 1260th to the 1290th day.

 

[watchfulChristian]

It says nothing of the sort.

Yes it does.

Prove that there is an antichrist 7-year treaty. There is always a verifying scripture to everything because God says things more than once.
So, show it to me.

Read Dan. 9.27, Matt. 24.15, 1260 days, 2 Thess. 2.4.

Wow, you are completely ignorant of what God said in Ezekiel, Isaiah and others about what He was going to do to Israel and why and for how long.

I disagree.

God said He would destroy and desolate Israel until the time of the end - the holocaust was part of that.

Nope. He said desolations are determined not that Israel would be left desolate. That must upset you that Israel is a nation again not desolate; though will be left desolate during the Great Trib.

Of course the Holocaust had nothing to do with the New Covenant. How bizarre that you would say such a thing!

You place the 3 1/2 years as confirming a covenant. The New Covenant is not confirmed in the Great Trib but on the cross.

 

[watchfulChristian]

You need to study the God-given definition and distinction between tribulation and wrath.

Find out when tribulation began and when it ends and what it has included so far, according to God.
Find out when wrath begins and what is involved in it, according to God.

God never made a distinction between the 7 year Tribulation and wrath.

You're making mutually exclusive the tribulation of the saints with the 7 year Tribulation.

 

[watchfulChristian]

Understand why Christians use the term "Tribulation" for the last 7 years, because it is a one time event and it is the Tribulation of all tribulations just like the Antichrist is the antichrist of all antichrists.

 

[Markusanthem]

Yes it does.

Anyone with eyes can look at it and see that it doesn't.

Not the whole Church, just those who keep the word of His patience.

No, it's the whole church up to that moment in time - the fulness of the gentiles!

The darkening is at the end of the last trumpet due to nuclear holocaust. Whereas at the 6th Seal is the H3 Hybrid Solar eclipse and the 2014/15 Tetrad.

LOL! No. It doesn't say that and there's no reason to believe it.

He never said that. Before the great and terrible day of the Lord is the unique solar and lunar eclipse (Rev. 6.12, Joel 2.31).

Those are the same moment as this, so yes, he did say that:

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

"After the Tribulation" is the 7th Trumpet ended (Rev. 11.19). The 6th Seal occurs before the 7th Seal. The 7th Seal contains the 7 trumnpets of the Tribulation.

The 7th seal contains the trumpets and the bowls and is the wrath of God.

Jesus was clear on when the tribulation ends and when wrath begins.

Wrath is Tribulation.

No it isn't. Jesus said tribulation is over before wrath begins.

The "tribulation of those days" is the 70th seven.

No scripture says this.

The Tribulation contains the bowls of wrath.

Obviously not because Jesus said the tribulation ends before the 6th seal.

The tribulation the past 20 centuries does not preclude the Tribulation of Daniel's final seven of wrath that is coming to make desolate.

The word "tribulation" is found nowhere in Daniel 9.

Newsflash: Israel, Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed and desolated in 70 AD.

Jesus never said Rev. 9.18 is not the Great Tribulation with its bowls of wrath.

Jesus did say that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal when wrath begins.