Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[Major1]

I think one of our friends on this thread has already said that the word isn't there, but what's more important is that almost nothing which could relate to Purgatory is to be found in Scripture, either (to which the reply has also been given that it doesn't say there ISN'T a Purgatory, so we can go ahead and invent anything we want).

Good to know. Then I would add that there is not even a "suggestion" of such an event or place.

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

I covered this when I said that some of these doctrines have just the slightest of Biblical support at best, and that it's often one word. In this case, it's "fire" and there's little else that can be said with certainty to refer to Purgatory. Remember that it's not the term (Purgatory) that is at issue here but the idea; and "fire" or "burned up" does not define Purgatory, not in the least. In addition, they whole passage is usually understood in a non-literal sense. It's an analogy.

What it is, who goes there, why that is, how long, etc. etc. is required for anything like a confirmation (or evidence) of Purgatory...and that's all lacking. What you are doing with this verse is speculating in the way that believers in Universalism or Reincarnation do when they try to make a few sketchy and imprecise references in Scripture "prove" their theories.

If you think so, you can surely point to it. Remember that Purgatory is a state in the afterlife to which SAVED people will be sent for awhile in order to suffer or be purged of the consequences of Mortal sins they've committed but been forgiven of or unforgiven Venial sins--which means that all of us will experience Purgatory unless we are among the damned who are headed to Hell. Souls in Purgatory can have their stay shortened by the prayers of the living, Masses, or Indulgences which draw from the "Treasury of Merit" in order to apply surplus goodness from the great saints to the Poor Souls in Purgatory.

If all that was verified by some Scripture and cited on this thread, I must have missed it. But if it was not verified by Scripture, there was, in fact, no "Scriptural evidence for purgatory...put down for all in this thread."

If you think so, you can surely point to it. Remember that Purgatory is a state in the afterlife to which SAVED people will be sent for awhile in order to suffer or be purged of the consequences of Mortal sins they've committed but been forgiven of or unforgiven Venial sins--which means that all of us will experience Purgatory unless we are among the damned who are headed to Hell. Souls in Purgatory can have their stay shortened by the prayers of the living, Masses, or Indulgences which draw from the "Treasury of Merit" in order to apply surplus goodness from the great saints to the Poor Souls in Purgatory.

If all that was verified by some Scripture and cited on this thread, I must have missed it. But if it was not verified by Scripture, there was, in fact, no "Scriptural evidence for purgatory...put down for all in this t


.

 

[Yarddog]

Two were "proven" by physicians to be miracles?? You can forgive us for doubting that.

You're forgiven. I don't think anyone should believe what another person says without proof and I have provided none. But yes, the medical conditions were well documented prior to God revealing that a healing would occur and that the conditions no longer existed was medically proven.

One was a sports injury. I was hit by a line drive while pitching in a softball game. A large contusion on my calf was visible for at least 15 years and I was given ultrasound exams every few years to check for blood clots. As I was going to Mass, the Holy Spirit came upon me and revealed that I would have a healing, though I didn't know for what.

I told my Mother-in-law about it and later that day the area around the contusion became feverish and sore. This lasted for about 3 days and then subsided. The contusion and the discoloration were gone. The doctor also confirmed that it had clearly up and he had no answer as to why.

The other incident happened a couple of years later. I had felt and heard a loud pop in my right ear and I went virtually deaf in that ear. The Otolaryngologist diagnosed a tumor on my auditory nerve. I again had the Holy Spirit come upon as I was going to Mass and reveal a healing and later that day I felt another pop in the right ear and my hearing returned. My next visit to the doctor revealed no tumor.

The other incident which has no outside proof was being healed of the flu immediately after receiving the Eucharist.

God is great

 

[Albion]

You're forgiven. I don't think anyone should believe what another person says without proof and I have provided none. But yes, the medical conditions were well documented prior to God revealing that a healing would occur and that the conditions no longer existed was medically proven.

One was a sports injury. I was hit by a line drive while pitching in a softball game. A large contusion on my calf was visible for at least 15 years and I was given ultrasound exams every few years to check for blood clots. As I was going to Mass, the Holy Spirit came upon me and revealed that I would have a healing, though I didn't know for what.

I told my Mother-in-law about it and later that day the area around the contusion became feverish and sore. This lasted for about 3 days and then subsided. The contusion and the discoloration were gone. The doctor also confirmed that it had clearly up and he had no answer as to why.

The other incident happened a couple of years later. I had felt and heard a loud pop in my right ear and I went virtually deaf in that ear. The Otolaryngologist diagnosed a tumor on my auditory nerve. I again had the Holy Spirit come upon as I was going to Mass and reveal a healing and later that day I felt another pop in the right ear and my hearing returned. My next visit to the doctor revealed no tumor.

The other incident which has no outside proof was being healed of the flu immediately after receiving the Eucharist.

God is great

None of these healings would necessarily be miracles, then. Your reason for feeling that they were miracles rather than unexplained changes goes back to your perception that the HS had intervened.

 

[Yarddog]

And that is exactly what happens when one rejects the Word of God as the Word of God.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ just in case you don't know that scripture makes that clear and it is Jesus Christ that tells the Holy Spirit what to give us.

All believers must be careful when it comes to visions and the interpretation of visions. We must keep in mind that the Bible is finished, and it tells us everything we need to know. The key truth is that if God were to give a vision, it would agree completely with what He has already revealed in His Word.

That depends on what God decided to share in the vision. Something cannot contradict or add to the totality of the Gospel.

Visions should never be given equal or greater authority than the Word of God.

How can a vision given through the Word of God be given greater authority than the Word of God?

God’s Word is our ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice.

Yes Jesus the Word of God is the Head of the Church.

If you believe you have had a vision and feel that perhaps God gave it to you, prayerfully examine the Word of God and make sure your vision is in agreement with Scripture.

Always do.

Should Christians expect visions to be an ordinary occurrence? No.

I agree.

 

[Albion]

Even the Pope referred to the Bible as the Word of God when calling on Catholics to be more active in Bible Study, Yarddog.

 

[Yarddog]

None of these healings would necessarily be miracles, then.

I would agree if the Holy Spirit hadn't come upon me first and revealed a healing would take place.

Your reason for feeling that they were miracles rather than unexplained changes goes back to your perception that the HS had intervened.

Have you ever had any experience with the Holy Spirit? You obviously couldn't truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God without the Holy Spirit revealing that to you so you must have had some experience.

 

[FireDragon76]

So in the Catholic view, one can be excommunicated and yet still doing the right thing?

Yes, if the authority is judged wrong by a well-formed conscience. Catholic theology takes individual conscience quite seriously. Going against conscience is indeed neither "right nor safe". The Church guides consciences, but can't "replace" them (to quote Pope Francis).

Excommunication is not necessarily a judgment on the soul, it is a disciplinary measure and for protecting the good order of the Church. It is painful for those excommunicated but it is not assumed that they are damned, necessarily.

This doesn't sound like the Catholic view. Could you cite a Catholic authority who's saying something like this?

I spent some time in an Independent Catholic church and I studied Catholic moral theology. You might try the Catholic Catechism and what it says on conscience:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Moral conscience

The Indepent Catholic group I was affiliated with briefly was affiliated with a religious movement started by Bishop Carlos Duarte Costa after he was excommunicated during WWII for accusing the Brazilian church of collaborating with pro-Nazi policies. Duarte Costa continued his own church as a bishop in his country. Today the Roman church has good relations with the descendants of his church, despite the separation, and recognizes its sacraments and orders as valid.

Hopefully some Roman Catholics can better address your inquiry, but for now that's the best I can do.

 

[Yarddog]

Even the Pope referred to the Bible as the Word of God when calling on Catholics to be more active in Bible Study, Yarddog.

I have never seen the term, "Word of God" (with a capital W) used to refer to anything other than Jesus in the ancient Churches. (Not sure if the Anglican or Lutheran Church does) For the Catholic Church, the term used with a lower case "w" can refer to the scriptures, oral prophesy, or oral Apostolic Tradition. Now, if you have a reference from the Catholic Church with that I will happily stand corrected.

 

[Albion]

The fact is that the term is used in a number of Bible verses to refer to the Scriptures. And there are also some which refer to the Son of God by the same term.

Whether or not capitalizing Word changes anything, I don't know, but you can find both capitalized and uncapitalized used for both meanings.

However, I often read Catholics saying, indignantly, that Protestants who call Scripture the Word of God (or the word of God) are uninformed and (apparently) must be rebuked because, the Catholic insists, the term means Christ and nothing else. That's wrong.

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Good to know. Then I would add that there is not even a "suggestion" of such an event or place.

I have given the evidence in scripture, it is you who decided to misinterpret it . I have shown that the early Church believed it and what will happen to us all . the Catholic Church calls this purgatory . I will be even more specific in defending this Doctrine.

Catholics have no disagreement when the Lord died on the cross his exclamation " it is finished " ( Greek tetelestia) meant that his perfect and unique sacrifice had been fully accomplished. We also agree that his perfect sacrifice was infinity efficient to satisfy Gods justice and atone fore sin of humanity .But the bible shares other information .

There is another place that is neither heaven or hell.This place is also known as " Abraham's bosom , a place of rest where Lazarus was . luke 16:19-30 .It is also known as Sheol,Hades,the Netherworld and Paradise. And in Peter 3:18-20 and $:6 Jesus preached to the dead in people in" prison". This shows that some people who were destined for heaven (eg Lazarus) and the spirits of the Old Testament who Christ resued from the netherworld was a temporary state of waiting for the redemption of Christ . So there fore there are other states besides Heaven and hell .

We need to make a distinction between the eternal penalty due to sin which is eternal separation ( hell) and temporal effects which include temporal punishments . keeping this in mind to correctly understand all sorts of biblical issues such as sin,hell,purgatory and the atonement .

Temporal effects of sin are shown in Genesis were God pronounces as series of maledictions against Adam and Eve,creation and physical creation .Adam and Eve were saved yet the temporal effects of their sin remained . Enmity with the rest of nature , sickness,labour pains... God permitted on Adam and Eve and all of us. So you as a born again believer Christian receive Christ as your Savior, you correctly believe Jesus will forgive you and remit the penalty of hell .However you still experience the temporal effects of the fall ( eg sickness , child birth..) and eventually greatest temporal effect death .

There are other temporal effects in Sam 12:13-14. David sinned by committing murder though the lord forgave him when he repented , there were still repercussions whist God did not alleviate and a form of restitution followed , the death of his son.

This fits in with the doctrine of Purgatory which the fire of God purifies us from the temporal effects of sin . The doctrine in the OT 2 Maccabees 12 ( which is not in the protestant bible which was included in the old KJV ) 1 Cor 3:10-15 is also a presentation of Purgatory .

A person in this verse died in the friendship of Christ.He had 'built' his life on the 'foundation of Christ'

The "day" which his deed are disclosed takes place after his death ." it is appointed for men to die once after comes judgement" Heb 9:27 and he is giving an account of his life .

Some things in his life are noble and is compared to gold and silver. These elements of virtue are retained. Other ignoble aspects are burnt away until all that remains are the noble elements . the bible makes it clear' nothing unclean shall enter it" Rev 21:27

Paul says this process involves suffering as passing through fire for purification .As Jesus says " for every one will be salted with fire "

Scripture shows God's presence is expressed by fire . Moses and the burning bush , the pillar of fire in Exodus and the Seraphim means the burning ones . Tongues of fire (Holy Spirit) descended on the apostles. Our God is a " consuming fire" and if you are wicked his presence will burn you Rev 20:9.

Finally we see this process of purification take place before man enters heaven .Its the prelude to his entrance into glory " he will be saved (future tense) but only through passing through fire .

Even if Paul doesn't use the term purgatory to describe the process Gog purification ( just as we use the word Trinity which is not in the bible) The principle of purification is very clear . God completely washes the sinner in the blood of the Lamb .

Once the soul is ready to see God he encounters " spirits of men made perfect " Heb 12:22-23. Nothing imperfect can exist before the Throne of God .

St Augustine 402 ad " That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible and can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden wheater some of the faithful may be saved , some more slowly some moe quickly in greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things in life hat parish through a certain purgatorial fire"

 

[Antig]

How very sad. My dear friend, you are welcome to believe as you wish but the real truth here is that there has not been ONE Single verse put down to validate Purgatory....NOT ONE!

There can never be one because there are NONE.

The real problem here with Purgatory stems from something else.
You see, Catholic theology does not accept the final and full sufficiency of Christ’s once-for-all atonement that YOUR 1st Pope taught in 1 Pet. 3:18.

The Catholic soteriological system is fraught with ideas of self-atonement-works that must be done to merit forgiveness for past sins. That is where the root grows from and it is a flaw in the foundation. When the foundation is flawed, the cracks wil get bigger and bigger hence PURGATORY.

Purgatory allows for those meritorious efforts (i.e. suffering) to atone for sin after death. That is works-man doing theology which the Bible condems.

Second, Catholic doctrine teaches an unbiblical idea of penalty and guilt. It holds that “absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused…he must ‘make satisfaction for’ or ‘expiate’ his sins.
This satisfaction is also called ‘penance.'”
Purgatory then according to the RCC's own teaching is the final act of penance that removes the penalty of sin hence the in-biblical theology of works = salvation.

But as YOU said......you believe it anyway.

1 Tim. 4:1 speaks clearly to this situation.......
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons".

Scriptural evidence has been given but, as usual, those who disbelieve the Catholic teachings refuse to accept the verses offered! You will not accept them just like we 'WILL' accept them! They are very real to us. A church that spans 2,000 plus years.

Can I ask you? How old is your denomination?

 

[Antig]

Funny! There is NO Purgatory in the Scriptures to be believed!

Tell you what.....you post one Bible Scripture from the canon of 66 books that says "PURGATORY" and I will buy you chocolate covered Crispy Crème donut!

You can quote the word 'Trinity' from scripture? The words 'Sola scripture' from scripture?

 

[Albion]

I have given the evidence in scripture, it is you who decided to misinterpret it ."

I don't believe that's correct. You made a series of general statements that might refer to Purgatory or to any number of other explanations. You also said that fire is Purgatory, which is like explaining an automobile to someone who had never seen one by saying it's a big piece of metal. Well, in a way, that's so, but it certainly doesn't separate the automobile from a hundred other and quite different items.

Purgatory in fact is not referred to in Scripture--not Purgatory as identified by the Catholic Church. And I listed a number of particulars that that Church has made be part of the raison d'etre of Purgatory. What's more, now that Purgatory has been redefined by the RCC, even the sketchy references you pointed to no longer apply.

 

[Antig]

I don't believe that's correct. You made a series of general statements that might refer to Purgatory or to any number of other explanations. You also said that fire is Purgatory, which is like explaining an automobile to someone who had never seen one by saying it's a big piece of metal. Well, in a way, that's so, but it certainly doesn't separate the automobile from a hundred other and quite different items.

Purgatory in fact is not referred to in Scripture--not Purgatory as identified by the Catholic Church. And I listed a number of particulars that that Church has made be part of the raison d'etre of Purgatory. What's more, now that Purgatory has been redefined by the RCC, even the sketchy references you pointed to no longer apply.

I disagree. Purgatory is in scripture. The place is defined in scripture as our Catholic friend posted, with scriptural evidence.

The fact of the matter is that you do not or are not prepared to, accept the said scripture as evidence of purgatory! That is YOUR choice my friend. You won't convince a Catholic to change their beliefs. Beliefs that are well grounded and founded in scripture.

I notice there are only a select few on these great forums who are dead against anything 'Catholic'. Maybe they are lost in scripture, or Sola Scripture? It's a shame.

 

[Major1]

You can quote the word 'Trinity' from scripture? The words 'Sola scripture' from scripture?

The point is.....does the said word or term accurately reflect what the Scriptures teach.?

The goal of any Christian whose heart burns for knowledge and truth is to investigate the facts of Scripture so that you can see from the process of that investigation just how the Bible teaches us about how God exists.

Historically, if you choose to do the work you will find that the church has believed that God exists in a Trinity. The Triune God personality, 3 Gods in ONE person, is actually exclusive to the Christian doctrine and is a truth of Scripture.

 

[Antig]

The point is.....does the said word or term accurately reflect what the Scriptures teach.?

The goal of any Christian whose heart burns for knowledge and truth is to investigate the facts of Scripture so that you can see from the process of that investigation just how the Bible teaches us about how God exists.

Historically, if you choose to do the work you will find that the church has believed that God exists in a Trinity. The Triune God personality, 3 Gods in ONE person, is actually exclusive to the Christian doctrine and is a truth of Scripture.

Still, those words are not in scripture. Much like the word purgatory. But, as with Trinity, it can be found in the scriptures. Yet, you fail to see it, or more correctly, refuse to see it!

 

[Albion]

I disagree. Purgatory is in scripture.

If it were, you could point to the verses that teach who goes there, why they do, what the place is for, and everything that makes "Purgatory" what the RCC says it is--just as the Bible defines Heaven and Hell. I have already put these questions out there for anyone to act on and, of course, no one has been able to show that Purgatory is in the Bible.

 

[Major1]

You can quote the word 'Trinity' from scripture? The words 'Sola scripture' from scripture?

Do you know the meaning of "Sola Scriptura"? It has NOTHING what so ever to do with being found in the Scriptures.

The word games that a lot of people like to play are actually a double edged sword. You are trying to weld a personal thought that you have read on A Catholic blog site which says in essence......
If the word Trinity is not in the Bible then it does not exist.

I hope your priest does not learn that you are questioning the Trinity. The others are "Sola Scriptura" and "Faith ALone". Somehow you have determined that the way to debate this is to question the existence of Doctrine based the actual WORD being in the Bible.

Now the doubled sword is this.......Now can you quote the word "ROSARY" from the Scriptures.

Since it is NOT there, just like "Sola Scriptura and Trinity" it therefore must not exist.
That line of thinking would then remove "Transubstantiation" from being believed as it does not exist.
The "Assumption of Mary" is now also rejected, NOT BY ME but by YOUR own words.

 

[Albion]

Still, those words are not in scripture. Much like the word purgatory. But, as with Trinity, it can be found in the scriptures. Yet, you fail to see it, or more correctly, refuse to see it!

The Trinity is, however, proved by Scripture, even if the word isn't used. It's inescapable, in fact. But Purgatory is neither mentioned nor referred to.