Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[bbbbbbb]

In that case, you wouldn't be 'praying the rosary' or 'saying the rosary,' but you'd be using the bead set for another purpose, and there are indeed people who do that. Some people just carry them as a reminder of something spiritual that has meaning for them

This discussion reminds me of the practice of wearing a cross on a necklace around one's neck. All kinds of people do it for all kinds of reasons. However, as with praying the Catholic version of the Rosary there are assuredly mistaken uses for the practice.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But are you really invincibly ignorant? There are other kinds of ignorance, including willful ignorance, and then there are things like plausible deniability. Not every kind of ignorance comes with a 'get out of hell free' card. I don't know you and it's not my job to judge you at all. But for myself I would not think that I was invincibly ignorant as any sort of guarantee, just in case I was fooling myself and I was willfully ignorant instead.

For a sin to be mortal one must know it, freely choose it, and it must be serious matter. So a truly invincibly ignorant person, which maybe you are or maybe you aren't, will not be condemned. The way to salvation may be narrow. You should follow the discipline of your ecclesial community until you figure out otherwise. Then you must follow where God leads you, not claiming ignorance. Those nominal Catholics in France should/must do the same.

I suppose that if one truly knows the tenets of a religion and knows them to be true, then he would not be ignorant and he would, perforce, subscribe to those tenets. However, as I have been told multiple times by my Catholic friends here at CF, I am quite ignorant of the tenets of the Catholic Church. That is their decided understanding of my situation and not my own, of course. Assuming they are correct, then I am really invincibly ignorant and not in serious trouble (although I disagree with that conclusion). In the end, I am convinced that God will sort me out.

It seems to me that the nominal Catholics in France have just enough knowledge (and I will grant that is far too minimal to judge accurately) concerning mortal sin that they are in a much more serious situation than yourself or myself, but that is only my ignorant opinion, for what it is worth.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I suppose that if one truly knows the tenets of a religion and knows them to be true, then he would not be ignorant and he would, perforce, subscribe to those tenets. However, as I have been told multiple times by my Catholic friends here at CF, I am quite ignorant of the tenets of the Catholic Church. That is their decided understanding of my situation and not my own, of course. Assuming they are correct, then I am really invincibly ignorant and not in serious trouble (although I disagree with that conclusion). In the end, I am convinced that God will sort me out.

Again, presuming invincible ignorance is a dangerous game, mostly because doing so may well be a willful ignorance. Caveat emptor.

It seems to me that the nominal Catholics in France have just enough knowledge (and I will grant that is far too minimal to judge accurately) concerning mortal sin that they are in a much more serious situation than yourself or myself....

Perhaps. I can pray for them. You can as well. I would not want to be in their shoes.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again, presuming invincible ignorance is a dangerous game, mostly because doing so may well be a willful ignorance. Caveat emptor.

Perhaps. I can pray for them. You can as well. I would not want to be in their shoes.

I assuredly do not assume invincible ignorance on my part concerning Catholicism. Nor do I assume willful ignorance on my part. I believe than I am more knowledgeable than the average Catholic.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I assuredly do not assume invincible ignorance on my part concerning Catholicism. Nor do I assume willful ignorance on my part. I believe than I am more knowledgeable than the average Catholic.

I wouldn't play the averages. I hope you wouldn't either. There is a real possibility that few are in the end going to be saved. I follow my Lord and trust in his mercy with an appropriate amount of fear and trembling. Many just think they have it made in the shade with God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wouldn't play the averages. I hope you wouldn't either. There is a real possibility that few are in the end going to be saved. I follow my Lord and trust in his mercy with an appropriate amount of fear and trembling. Many just think they have it made in the shade with God.

I think we will all be quite surprised at the Judgement. Hopefully, it will be positive surprises for you and myself.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think we will all be quite surprised at the Judgement. Hopefully, it will be positive surprises for you and myself.

I hope so. I don't take it for granted at all.

 

[Mountainmike]

The bible doesn't say it , because it is not true! Indeed actually contradicts it, in demonstrating truth outside it.

And if the bible doesn't say it, simple logic demonstrates it must be false.

See if you can put the pieces together.

Well, the Bible doesn't say that, but it does call Scripture the highest authority. See if you can put the pieces together.

 

[chevyontheriver]

And if the bible doesn't say it, simple logic demonstrates it must be false.

Huh?

 

[Albion]

The bible doesn't say it , because it is not true! Indeed actually contradicts it, in demonstrating truth outside it..

What?

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Click bait!

Hey, a genuine query to my Roman brothers and sisters...

I've been studying through the official Catechism of the RCC again - a document that has much to commend it. I don't understand something. The Catechism appears to distinguish between Tradition and the Magesterium. So here's the question:

What's the difference between the Tradition and the Magesterium?

Thanks!

Tradition as Catholics understand it as in 2 Thes " stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught ,either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." If you read the early Church Fathers you will see that much of Catholic teaching/ interpretation of scripture in Scripture on contraception, abortion , the understanding of the Mass, baptismal regeneration... was held from the beginning. These ealy Bishops also wrote even before the Canon of Bible was decided in 397 ad . It should be noted that some of these early Bishops received these Traditions from the Apostles themselves orally .

As for the Magisterium, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to all truth (J 16:12-13) and he himself would be with his church "even until the end of the world" ( mat 28:20) When the Catholic church, as a whole with the Pope and his bishops,, it speaks/teaches with the authority of Christ. Christ said to his Apostles Whoever listens to you listens to me.A whoever rejects you rejects me ."( L 10:16,Mat 16:18-19,18:18).We of course believe in apostolic succession were the Apostles laid on hands and giving new Bishops the authority to teach proper interpretation of scripture .

Paul himself in 1 Cor15:1-3 explains he is a member or the magisterium of the infant Church. this scripture there is body of teaching "that you received " which he says "I preached "(orally). your are "to hold fast to this body of teaching"which Paul delivered orally and which he also "received"orally ( remember the Bible was not formalize until 397 ad ). It is the role of the Magisterium ( latin for teaching office Mat 28:19-20) represented in this passage by St Paul one of the first Bishops to explain the meaning of scripture andwho passes these interpretations on to the next generation of bishops . Who either taught orly or who also wrote these teching down in their own letters .

It should be noted that each protestant church has tradition or Magisterium . That is their founders had a interpretation of scripture (written) in which they claim that Holy Spirit lead them to believe or claim it was the original teachings of the Apostles . However you will find they each contradict each other claiming they have the proper interpretation . That is why it is good to read the early Church Fathers to see if the were Baptist,lutherans, presbyterians................or Catholic in their interpretation of scripture right from the beginning . These are the same men who died at the hands of pagan Rome I the early Church for their beliefs .

Oh buy the way I consider all here fully Christian and followers of Christ as my Church does teach.

 

[Tree of Life]

It should be noted that each protestant church has tradition or Magisterium . That is their founders had a interpretation of scripture (written) in which they claim that Holy Spirit lead them to believe or claim it was the original teachings of the Apostles . However you will find they each contradict each other claiming they have the proper interpretation . That is why it is good to read the early Church Fathers to see if the were Baptist,lutherans, presbyterians................or Catholic in their interpretation of scripture right from the beginning . These are the same men who died at the hands of pagan Rome I the early Church for their beliefs .

Thanks for your thorough response. I have no problem admitting that my church has a teaching office, an official confession, and a particular tradition. I just have a problem saying that these things are infallible or that they have equal authority with Scripture. I agree that all churches have traditions and codified dogma (more or less).

But I see no reason to suppose that the church cannot be wrong on an issue. How would we know whether or not it's right or wrong? In the Presbyterian world, we would compare the teachings of the church with Scripture. If they concord, then the church is right and speaking with Christ's authority. But if they do not concord then the church has no authority of its own.

In the Catholic view, the church is right by definition. It can never be questioned or challenged by appealing to Scripture. I think that this is what troubles Protestants. It's what troubles me.

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

I agree it does trouble other Churches. Many Catholics don't follow their own teachings on contraception , abortion... ect . The early Church has a document about abortion and contraception written in the Didache written in 140 ad . There are actually some evangelicals who believe in abortion lie in Obama's church. ( remember Abortion is not referred to in scripture ) I believe if there is truth there must be one right answer for every one question/issue . or its not truth It is threatening to claim your the only true church or a person has the only correct interpretation . I understand that .

Relativism says it doesn't matter what you believe, there is no right or wrong . We as Christians believe Christ is the way ,the truth and the life . I believe truth can be known . What make something true .

I am on this forum to explain only and not nor to convert . I just hate dumb comments people make against Catholics . I am willing to discuss scripture and Catholic teaching and and be challenged . if you interested . I can only respond (always respectfully) when I get the chance .

 

[Tree of Life]

I agree it does trouble other Churches. Many Catholics don't follow their own teachings on contraception , abortion... ect . The early Church has a document about abortion and contraception written in the Didache written in 140 ad . There are actually some evangelicals who believe in abortion lie in Obama's church. ( remember Abortion is not referred to in scripture ) I believe if there is truth there must be one right answer for every one question/issue . or its not truth It is threatening to claim your the only true church or a person has the only correct interpretation . I understand that .

Relativism says it doesn't matter what you believe, there is no right or wrong . We as Christians believe Christ is the way ,the truth and the life . I believe truth can be known . What make something true .

I am on this forum to explain only and not nor to convert . I just hate dumb comments people make against Catholics . I am willing to discuss scripture and Catholic teaching and and be challenged . if you interested . I can only respond (always respectfully) when I get the chance .

I agree that truth is real and I'm not a relativist. I just think that God's word alone is authoritative in regards to faith and morals.

It's very interesting that the early church thought that abortion and contraception were wrong. But this is not an authoritative opinion unless it can be established by the word of God. And in the case of abortion I believe it can be established. But the contraception issue is less clear and so is a matter of conscience.

 

[Yarddog]

Actually, there are probably a hundred questions that Catholics can not answer and the one you posted may be the least of them all and I do not say that to disrespect you in any way my brother!

Here is a good one to ask.............
Where in the Bible is the ROSARY found and the directions of how it is to be done????

In the same place where it says that something has to be in the Bible for it to be believed.

 

[Major1]

In the same place where it says that something has to be in the Bible for it to be believed.

You almost got it. Actually what it says is that a Bible doctrine MUSR BE in the Bible to be a Bible doctrine.

Otherwise it is just the opinions of men dressed up in a fancy word called "Traditions".

Bible doctrines, then, are teachings explicitly taught in the Bible. Examples of these include God’s creation of the heavens and earth (Genesis 1:1), the sinfulness of all people (Romans 3), the virgin birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:20-25; Luke 1:26-38), the physical death and literal resurrection of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:3-11), salvation by grace alone through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), the inspiration of Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and many others.

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Each church believes it has the correct interpretation of the word of God . we know abortion itself is not written in the word of God but some churches use this as a matter of conscious too or because t is not in scripture Llie Obama's former church . You and I agree that it can be established in scripture ' thou shall not kill ' , I can agree that we can surmise this to be true . I believe contraception can be surmised through scripture and affirmed by the early Church writings as well on the authority of the Catholic Church .

In Genesis God commands couples to"be fruitful and multiply" and to be blessed with children was a cause for joy Isa 54:1;Gal 4:27 contraception says to God we don't want this blessing . Now in Romans 1:25-27 Paul speaks about the natureal function of woman in sexualty.This inclueds fertility . He condemns the exchange of the" natural" for the " unnatural". Contraception is unnatural .

I Genesis 38:8-10 God struck down Onan For the sin of contraception (ie withdrawal ). He was not punished because he didn't want to father a heir for his deceased brother but specifically because he contracepted. Genesis 38:8-10 fits within Gods broader condemnation of unnatural sins that are by their very nature sterile and not open to Gods gift of life (Lev 20:13,15-16 also Ex23:26;Deut 7:14;Ps 128:3-4;Tim 2:15). We also know that contraception pills acts as an abortifacient in 2% of the cases ( Google it ) so if a person uses it they in fact are aborting a child 2% of the time without realizing it . Nore does contraception 100% full proof to prevent birth .

We can read a number of early Church Fathers/documents . I will give you one example St Clement of Alexandria wrote in 195 ad " because of its divine institution for propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted ."( google more quotes)

Were has contraception got us . It created the sexual revolution where people do not have to take responsibility for the consequences of sex, increase of porn , increase of abortion , Muslims have many more children then christians . Depopulation of Europe and other countries who are not having enough children to sustain themselves . Unwanted pregnancies . It is said that France will be a majority Muslim county in time . Morar Gaddafi said " we don't have to invade Europe military, we just need to have more Children then they do" At one time all Protestant denominations were against contraception . When the law changed one Bishop said this wont decrease abortion but increase it as well as open the door to worse . ( sorry i dont have the direct quote, but I know it was said).There are consequences for our sin of contraception we see it every day .

I believe that I have covered scripture and the early Church understanding of contraception . I also believe that the Catholic Church is making the right call on contraception . The question is did the Holy Spirit lead the magisterium to teach this or not . Most other churches would balk at this point .Nether giving credit to the Catholic Churches teaching and/or authority in this matter .

Got to go for now, may God bless you . Again I am not better then anyone else just sharing our defense .

 

[Yarddog]

You almost got it. Actually what it says is that a Bible doctrine MUSR BE in the Bible to be a Bible doctrine.

Otherwise it is just the opinions of men dressed up in a fancy word called "Traditiotradityou are . ible doctrines, then, are teachings explicitly taught in the Bible. Examples of these include God’s creation of the heavens and earth (Genesis 1:1), the sinfulness of all people (Romans 3), the virgin birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:20-25; Luke 1:26-38), the physical death and literal resurrection of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:3-11), salvation by grace alone through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), the inspiration of Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and many others.

Actually, there is no place in scripture which hints that it must be in scripture for it to be truth about God to be believed. Much of the Gospel wasn't even written down but was oral tradition. All you are touting is oral tradition which arose over the past few hundred years.

 

[Major1]

Actually, there is no place in scripture which hints that it must be in scripture for it to be truth about God to be believed. Much of the Gospel wasn't even written down but was oral tradition. All you are touting is oral tradition which arose over the past few hundred years.

Really?

The truth is and has always been that NO ONE is condemning Oral Tradition. You are using the idea like a hammer to focus on something that does not exist my dear friend.

I want to take this opportunity to show you and other Catholic believers something that I am sure you have never considered. I am also sure that it will not make any difference to you but it is none the less real facts.

The word tradition occurs only 14 times in the whole New Testament. It shows up in the Old Testament not once. We find 8 references are from Jesus himself, all of which are derogatory of traditions. Not once does he insinuate they are useful or scriptural.

Paul has 5 references, 2 of which are derogatory (Col.2:8; Gal.1:14). Peter also has one reference also derogatory 1 Pt.1:18. (the aimless conduct received by the tradition of the fathers).
For Peter to be called the first Pope and does not uphold this practice does not help your position.

Catholics “Sacred Tradition” becomes invalid if in any point it contradicts the Bible. Catholic teachings of purgatory, penance, indulgences, Mass, praying the rosary, praying to saints and Mary, wearing scapulars, are not found in the Scripture and they contradict scriptures teachings.
Any verses found to validate these by Catholics are always subject to being redefined or pulled from its actual context. The Catholic Church has used their Traditions to make them equal to the Word of God as found in the written Scriptures AND right there is the rub!!!.

I would then encourage you to consider.....

1 Timothy 6:3 ................
"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness".

Jn. 14:15..........
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 Timothy 6:3-4...............
"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions".

 

[Albion]

Tradition as Catholics understand it as in 2 Thes " stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught ,either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." .

That is absolutely incorrect.

That is the verse that Catholics usually cite, it's true, but that is because there's not much else to hang that hat on.

In Catholic theology, "Tradition" refers to an entirely different thing from "traditions." And the traditions referred to in this verse already exist (obviously) so the notion that this gives any church body a blank check to make up new, nonScriptural doctrines at will is a fiction. Yet that is the role of "Holy Tradition" -- the making of dogma out of theological opinion dating from after the start of the Church and apart from Scripture..