Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[bbbbbbb]

Hmmm. Is it? Or is contrition and a commitment what's really required, as opposed to a formal declaration?

Yes. Ultimately it comes down to genuine faith in Jesus Christ. This faith works within the believer to produce works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Arsenios]

Hmmm. Is it? Or is contrition and a commitment what's really required, as opposed to a formal declaration?

Indeed, it IS repentance that is needful...
Which is why the command "BE YE REPENTING/KEEP ON REPENTING"
is the first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
Who overcame the world,
Whom we are to FOLLOW by OVERCOMING the world
The world of our sins
by living lives of REPENTANCE to the end...

So my question for anyone who embraces the Bible,
Is there ANY understanding in the above
that is NOT confirmed by the Bible?

Repent and be Baptized...
FOR...
The Kingdom of Heaven...
Is AT HAND...

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

God saves... God alone... None other than God...



Because I wrote "SOME of us"? And then "the REST of us"?
I am in both camps...
And so, my dear Brother, are you...



I simply asked a question: HOW SAD are you? And gave some examples of how sad you might actually be... Then I confessed that TO ME your "HOW SAD" comment seemed smug, and even, I might add, snarky... I PRAY I am wrong, and begged you to prove me wrong...



Well, the Pharisee cited all that he had done and even is doing in his self defense...



I thank God that you did so...



God bless this last - It forms the matrix of what I like to think of as a START...

I am glad you know God...

I did not question your motives for what you DO pray for...
I questioned your prayers for the one of whom you said: HOW SAD...

Arsenios

It was said "HOW SAD" simply because that was a window into the soul of a religious person who has said she was a Catholic but was condemning those who said a "Sinners Prayer" and in fact was questioning the process itself.

That should make everyone SAD IMO as each one of us who claims the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour should know what a sinners prayer is if they had said one.

Where it was said and how It was said is not important to me. Repentance is the key and without we would all be lost in our sin.

Your post of...........

"Then I confessed that TO ME your "HOW SAD" comment seemed smug, and even, I might add, snarky... I PRAY I am wrong, and begged you to prove me wrong... "

That my friend is YOUR opinion only.

You do not have to pray to be wrong, in this case YOU are wrong. I would suggest that you come back to the thread in question and lets move away from our "Personal Opinions" which are in fact not called for neither are they needed. ​

 

[Arsenios]

Yes. Ultimately it comes down to genuine faith in Jesus Christ. This faith works within the believer to produce works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And if you so desire, you can say that it is God Alone Who BESTOWS His Salvation on ANY man...
And that He is now doing so THROUGH the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Apostles...
And thereby did Christ establish His Own Body of His Salvation upon the earth...

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

I am hardly typical, mind you...
Isaiah foretold of my ilk: "They will find Me who were not seeking Me..."
So no, it is not required... As Scripture affirms:
"I will have Mercy on whom I WILL have Mercy"
Did not Christ save the Wise Thief who confessed Him on the Cross?
Confession, you see, is the first step of repentance...
Without repentance, there is no salvation...

I was so fed up with self-sanctimonious so-called Christians that none would I ever allow anywhere near me... Nor did I ever pray any prayer of repentance at all... I knew God outside ALL these understandings... I found the God I scorned and avoided... I was not seeking Him...

God Saves, because only He has Salvation to Give to us...
Because He IS Salvation,
and ONLY He has Himself to GIVE...

You did then re-define what she was talking about, yes?

And if you did, you owe her an apology...

No matter how many missions you have been on...

Humility, my Brother...

It is everything!

Arsenios

You said.............
"Nor did I ever pray any prayer of repentance at all... I knew God outside ALL these understandings...".

I find your confession to be self serving and arrogant. I find ever more difficult to grasp your words.

The basic message of the gospel is change. To be forgiven of sins, you need to change. To please God you need to change. To receive eternal life you need to change. This emphasis on change is focused in the word "repent."

Repentance is "a change of mind" -it is a change of location, it is also a decision, a choice, a determination of the heart, a deliberate exercise of the will - in which one determines to act differently in the future than he has in the past.

To be saved as I understand it a person must REPENT and that is done by a conversation with the Lord Jesus but you just said that you never did that.

Repentance Is Essential in order to Receive God's Forgiveness.

2 Peter 3:9 - .......
"God is not willing for men to perish but wants all to come to repentance. The alternative to repentance is perishing!"

Ezekiel 18:21-23......
"Wicked men must turn from evil and do right or they will die (spiritually).

God does not want us to die. He is willing to forgive, but first we must be willing to change. Before we can change, we must decide to change - that is repentance.

 

[Arsenios]

It was said "HOW SAD" simply because that was a window into the soul of a religious person who has said she was a Catholic but was condemning those who said a "Sinners Prayer" and in fact was questioning the process itself.

As I recall, she but asked if the Sinner's Prayer, which she had heard at every Evangellical church service she grew up in, was found in the Bible...

It is you who took humbrage at what you regarded as the impudence of such a question, and twisted it into being a CONDEMNATION of those praying it? The TRUTH is that she was but holding your feet to your own fire which is Scripture Alone by which you condemn the Latin Church... And then you remarked HOW SAD for her for being such a CONDEMNER of Evangellicals... You accused her of what she did not do... You owe her an apology...

That should make everyone SAD IMO as each one of us who claims the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour should know what a sinners prayer is if they had said one.

Well, that particular one, as one's entry into Christ, is NOT Biblically provided - You will not find that prayer prescribed in the Bible... That was her whole point... And you twisted it into something else...

Where it was said and how It was said is not important to me.
Repentance is the key and without we would all be lost in our sin.

And you are wise enough to see the aftermath of the Evangellical sinner's prayer - How so few keep the Grace which it does afford, as you mentioned...

Your post of...........

"Then I confessed that TO ME your "HOW SAD" comment seemed smug, and even, I might add, snarky... I PRAY I am wrong, and begged you to prove me wrong... "

That my friend is YOUR opinion only.​

Then I am still praying for you to prove me wrong...

You do not have to pray to be wrong, in this case YOU are wrong. I would suggest that you come back to the thread in question and lets move away from our "Personal Opinions" which are in fact not called for neither are they needed.

​

Please prove me wrong...

I will continue to pray that YOU prove me wrong...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You said.............
"Nor did I ever pray any prayer of repentance at all... I knew God outside ALL these understandings...".

I find your confession to be self serving and arrogant.

I find ever more difficult to grasp your words.

Me too...

Reading Paul quoting Isaiah as I related to you might prove helpful...

Isa 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for Me;
I am found of them that sought Me not:
I said,
Behold Me, behold Me,
Unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Yea, even unto a nation not called by His Name...

Me more than you, for I denied His very Existence...

Call it arrogance if you wish...

I call it reality...

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

And if you so desire, you can say that it is God Alone Who BESTOWS His Salvation on ANY man...
And that He is now doing so THROUGH the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Apostles...
And thereby did Christ establish His Own Body of His Salvation upon the earth...

Arsenios

We can also say that the Bible tells us in 1 John 5:11-12.......
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life."

John 1:12 .........
"But to all who have received him--those who believe in his name--he has given the right to become God's children."

John 3:16-18 .......
"For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in Him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God".

This means we must each come to God the same way:
(1) as a sinner who recognizes his sinfulness,
(2) realizes no human works can result in salvation, and
(3) relies totally on Christ alone by faith alone for our salvation.

And it all of that, the church has no say. As YOU just said, It is God ALONE who bestows His salvation.

 

[Major1]

As I recall, she but asked if the Sinner's Prayer, which she had heard at every Evangellical church service she grew up in, was found in the Bible...

It is you who took humbrage at what you regarded as the impudence of such a question, and twisted it into being a CONDEMNATION of those praying it? The TRUTH is that she was but holding your feet to your own fire which is Scripture Alone by which you condemn the Latin Church... And then you remarked HOW SAD for her for being such a CONDEMNER of Evangellicals... You accused her of what she did not do... You owe her an apology...



Well, that particular one, as one's entry into Christ, is NOT Biblically provided - You will not find that prayer prescribed in the Bible... That was her whole point... And you twisted it into something else...



And you are wise enough to see the aftermath of the Evangellical sinner's prayer - How so few keep the Grace which it does afford, as you mentioned...

Then I am still praying for you to prove me wrong...

​

Please prove me wrong...

I will continue to pray that YOU prove me wrong...

Arsenios

Umbrage is an incorrect word. "Sad" is still the word.
Condemnation was not intended neither was it implied.

I still say that anyone who attended many church services would need to ask if the sinners prayer was in the Bible when the question was not asked to be informed but was posed to show the hypocrisy of anyone who rejected RCC traditions but then followed Protestant traditions.

I believe that anyone who studies Scriptures know that the "sinners prayer" is not in the Bible BUT there are many Prayers of Sinners in the Bible.
It is actually a NON-Issue as you are the only one keeping this going.

Now for the 2nd time.....I think that it is far beyond the time to discuss the thread in question and leave this particular point behind as it is nothing but an opinion from you in a matter which you should not have been involved in to begin with.

Please continue to pray for me. I appreciate every prayer said to God for me.

 

[redleghunter]

I think she was referring to the sinner's prayer used at altar calls by Evangellicals...
It would seem that you spun that into "any and all prayers by sinners"...
And then you have mocked her...
And have all snarkily congratulated each other on your great victory...

OR

"How the West was LOST"

An old un-thriller whose pages are lost in the dustings of time...

Arsenios

I put smiley faces to show we were most likely talking past each other. The image was for both of us.

 

[Arsenios]

You said.............
"Nor did I ever pray any prayer of repentance at all...
I knew God outside ALL these understandings...".

Indeed...

I find your confession to be self serving and arrogant.

I am not surprised...

I find (it) ever more difficult to grasp your words.

They do not follow your formulaic...

The basic message of the gospel is change. To be forgiven of sins, you need to change. To please God you need to change. To receive eternal life you need to change. This emphasis on change is focused in the word "repent."

The basic message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is Repentance...

Repentance is "a change of mind" -it is a change of location, it is also a decision, a choice, a determination of the heart, a deliberate exercise of the will - in which one determines to act differently in the future than he has in the past.

True - And do not forget Paul - It is the mortification of the flesh - Engendered by taking up one's own cross and following Christ...

To be saved as I understand it a person must REPENT and that is done by a conversation with the Lord Jesus but you just said that you never did that.

That is true... I did not have a conversation with the Lord Jesus about repenting, or anything else for that matter... I told you, I am not typical, but you did ask... Repentance is turning from the world and one's passions in the world

Repentance Is Essential in order to Receive God's Forgiveness.

Oh, I never said I did not repent - For my first 36 years of life, I lived uncompromising repentance to the point of death - As an atheist - And gave up... I could not heal myself, and I went DEEP... I tried fully, I failed, and I gave up fully without rancor... THEN came God...

And the one thing I knew for an undisputed FACT: This God was NOT the Christian God! And He let me think this for 14 years before He told me Who He IS - The God of the Christians... Nobody was more outraged with God, more scandalized by God, than I was by this particular encounter. I tell it today with great humor, mind you - But at the time, I KNEW better, and I was wrong, and I turned toward the Christian Faith in obedience to Him, Who then led me surely into the Orthodox Faith of Christ...

2 Peter 3:9 - .......
"God is not willing for men to perish but wants all to come to repentance. The alternative to repentance is perishing!"

Ezekiel 18:21-23......
"Wicked men must turn from evil and do right or they will die (spiritually).

God does not want us to die. He is willing to forgive, but first we must be willing to change. Before we can change, we must decide to change - that is repentance.

These are the Ekklesiastic approaches to God...
They are blessed...
I came by the outside passage...
Outside the Ekklesia...

fwiw, so did John the Baptist...

But I ain't no John, you can trust me!

I warned you - I am not typical!
And I was asked...
I did not come to God through man or Church...
I came to God through God...
Then Church...
Then man...

Arsenios

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Unfortunately, the traditions of men do not become Holy (let alone divine revelation or the word of God) simply because the "Apostolic Body of Christ" chooses to say that they are holy and/or from God.

How do you justify the thousands of contradictions amongst evangelicals in regard to each churches contradiction of each other Regarding interpretations of scripture=doctrines=traditions . Who does not have the traditions of men, then ? In effect each group makes a choice to declare what is truth .

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

What difference does it make if a sinners prayer is said at an alter call, or the back yard?

A prayer of repentance is required to be saved, is it not?

Peter says "Baptism...now saves you " his words not mine .or Scripture says " believe and be baptised ". It does not say 'say a sinners prayer' .Scripture defines how we are saved . Repentance is next and separate topic .

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Indeed, it IS repentance that is needful...
Which is why the command "BE YE REPENTING/KEEP ON REPENTING"
is the first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
Who overcame the world,
Whom we are to FOLLOW by OVERCOMING the world
The world of our sins
by living lives of REPENTANCE to the end...

So my question for anyone who embraces the Bible,
Is there ANY understanding in the above
that is NOT confirmed by the Bible?

Repent and be Baptized...
FOR...
The Kingdom of Heaven...
Is AT HAND...

Arsenios

Your my hero. Still haven't worked technical stuff . And AMEN I say

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

How do you justify the thousands of contradictions amongst evangelicals Regarding interpretations of scripture=doctrines=traditions . Who does not have the traditions of men, then ? In effect each group makes a choice to declare what is truth and contradict each other .

 

[Albion]

How do you justify the thousands of contradictions amongst evangelicals in regard to each churches contradiction of each other Regarding interpretations of scripture=doctrines=traditions . Who does not have the traditions of men, then ? In effect each group makes a choice to declare what is truth .

You're talking different churches, of course. But the conflicting interpretations of Scripture are not resolved by turning to something OTHER than the word of God, specifically the theories of men.

As for your second question, every church has some traditions, but most do not pretend that these are the equal of divine revelation and do not make doctrine out of them.

 

[Arsenios]

Anyone who studies Scriptures know that the "sinners prayer" is not in the Bible...

Then your answer to her question is:
"No - the Sinner's Prayer used in the Evangellical Altar Calls
by which we save souls.
is not found as a prayer in the Bible..."

And NOT:
"Shame on you for attacking sinner's prayers."

So I still think you owe her an apology...

Arsenios

 

[prodromos]

You're talking different churches, of course. But the conflicting interpretations of Scripture are not resolved by turning to something OTHER than the word of God, specifically the theories of men.

That isn't what we do either.

As for your second question, every church has some traditions, but most do not pretend that these are the equal of divine revelation and do not make doctrine out of them.

We don't pretend anything. We simply hold fast to the teachings handed down through the Apostles.

 

[Albion]

That isn't what we do either.

We don't pretend anything. We simply hold fast to the teachings handed down through the Apostles.

...which is an additional concern with "Holy Tradition." Aside from the question of whether legends, folklore, custom, and opinion should be made the equal of Scripture, there is also the problem that comes with "Holy Tradition" which is claiming that such things are "teachings handed down through the Apostles" when there is no way of knowing if that's true or not. It is simply stated in order to justify making such information into doctrine.

And that in turn is why each Catholic-type denomination or church body has a different set of doctrines based on what it calls "teachings handed down through the Apostles."

 

[Major1]

Peter says "Baptism...now saves you " his words not mine .or Scripture says " believe and be baptised ". It does not say 'say a sinners prayer' .Scripture defines how we are saved . Repentance is next and separate topic .

As with most all people who follow their Church denominational teachings, instead of actual Bible study that always ends in believeing what someone wants you to believe.

Mr. Darrel, it is common knowledge that any person can make any single verse mean what they want it to mean. However, with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand.

In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use 1 Peter 3:21 just as you have done as a “proof text,” because it states “baptism now saves you.”
Was Peter really saying that the act of being baptized is what saves us? That is what you have been told and it is what you want to believe so that is what you do.

An excellent explanation of this passage is given by Dr. Kenneth Wuest, author of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament who correctly teaches us that......
“Water baptism is clearly in the apostle's mind, not the baptism by the Holy Spirit, for he speaks of the waters of the flood as saving the inmates of the ark, and in this verse, of baptism saving believers. But he says that it saves them only as a counterpart. That is, water baptism is the counterpart of the reality, salvation. It can only save as a counterpart, not actually. The Old Testament sacrifices were counterparts of the reality, the Lord Jesus. They did not actually save the believer, only in type. It is not argued here that these sacrifices are analogous to Christian water baptism. The author is merely using them as an illustration of the use of the word 'counterpart.'
Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?