Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

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Major1

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That isn't what we do either.

We don't pretend anything. We simply hold fast to the teachings handed down through the Apostles.

That being the case, where then in the teaching of the Apostles listed in the bible can we find their comments on ...........
The equal authority of church tradition and Scripture,
The perpetual virginity of Mary.

I believe that both of those are doctrines of the Orthodox church.
 
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Albion

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"In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9)...So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation...."

However, "baptism" is not a work in the theological sense of the word. That is to say, it is something done for us by God, the author of the practice/sacrament/ordinance, not something we do that gains merit for us in the eyes of God.

Also, it would be helpful if the idea that unidentified people say that Baptism saves in itself, or is necessary for salvation, were discontinued since hardly any church teaches that.
 
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bbbbbbb

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"In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9)...So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation...."

However, "baptism" is not a work in the theological sense of the word. That is to say, it is something done for us by God, the author of the practice/sacrament/ordinance, not something we do that gains merit for us in the eyes of God.

Also, it would be helpful if the idea that unidentified people say that Baptism saves in itself, or is necessary for salvation, were discontinued since hardly any church teaches that.

Baptism poses somewhat of a conundrum in that it requires human action and does not happen without human obedience, unless one defines it merely as baptism of the Holy Spirit, as some are wont to do. Thus, water baptism is a work in the sense of requiring physical action by humans. This is true of any sacrament.
 
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Albion

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Baptism poses somewhat of a conundrum in that it requires human action and does not happen without human obedience, unless one defines it merely as baptism of the Holy Spirit, as some are wont to do. Thus, water baptism is a work in the sense of requiring physical action by humans. This is true of any sacrament.
But again, that is not what "works" means in this context. It is not what faith vs works is about, and it is not what the Epistle of James (for example) refers to when speaking of good works/deeds. It doesn't refer to commendable acts of charity or mercy such as Christ spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount.

If it were, then any movement on our part would constitute a "work." That would include breathing in and out or merely showing up at the church in order to be baptized.
 
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Arsenios

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...which is an additional concern with "Holy Tradition." Aside from the question of whether legends, folklore, custom, and opinion should be made the equal of Scripture, there is also the problem that comes with "Holy Tradition" which is claiming that such things are "teachings handed down through the Apostles" when there is no way of knowing if that's true or not. It is simply stated in order to justify making such information into doctrine.

Actually, there is a consistent, if varied, body of Christian Ekklesiastical literature, beginning with the Gospels and the Epistles, that exists across the entire 2000 year history of the Faith of Christ... This is the literature of the Church Fathers and ascetics... A very good collection of these is found in the Philokalia vol 1-4/5 (I never found vol 5), and St. Isaac of Syria (His by-line is on my signature here) wrote "The Ascetical Homilies"... So when we argue Scripture, we are but bearing witness to this 2000 year body of the History of Christ in His Saints on this earth... We do not start with a book, even The Book, and then argue over what it must mean so that we can live according to the written Word... Instead we start with repentance, as we recorded in the Book, and in that enterprise, as we overcome sins from one to the next, we ask God to illumine us with understanding, and in this process of Salvation, the meaning of Holy Writ comes forth not in theory but in the actual unfolding of our lives of living repentance... Paul wrote of this: "Wherefore Brethren run the race set before you..." And IF we persevere in this very active repentance to the end of our lives, then we SHALL be saved, even as we are given an earnest of that Salvation in this life... Hence the shadow of Peter gave healing to the sick, Peter who followed Christ, as are we to follow Christ, imitating Peter, or imitating in voluntary obedience, those others who "have the Rule OVER us" who must give account for our souls...

And that in turn is why each Catholic-type denomination or church body has a different set of doctrines based on what it calls "teachings handed down through the Apostles."

If you take ALL these Apostolic Churches, and throw out from your credulity ALL these doctrinal differences, you will STILL find WAY more than a 95% congruence - In fact, a 99%+ with the Oriental Orthodox and the Coptic Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox Communions... The Latins did perhaps make it to a 5% divergence in their apostatic venture from the perspective of all the other Communions, but even so, there is hardly some "Different set of Doctrines" as you alledge... The doctrines are, in the main, congruent... Even the Ethiopian Church, which historically, to the middle east and to the west at least, disappeared for over a thousand years, to "develop" along its own lines, after separating from us at the 3rd Ecumenical Council (as my poor memory recalls) - Even this isolated Church is still 99% Eastern Orthodox in its Doctrine and Praxis... They are WONDERFUL Christians... As are the Copts... And all the others...

And all this rich historical proofs the western churches want to forsake so that they can read their Guttenberg Bibles and argue over what the passages should logically me interpreted as saying, and erect human doctrines based on that non-ekklesiastical set of understandings which each group might conclude... The Lutherans, the Zwinglians, the Calvinists, the Messianics, the Pentecostals, the... ad infinitum...

ALL the Apostolic Churches prescribe ongoing purification of the heart as the beginning and praxis of discipleship... None of them begin with reading the Bible and arguing about its meaning without the attainment of Grace that proceeds from the overcoming of sin...

Arsenios
 
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Albion

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Actually, there is a consistent, if varied, body of Christian Ekklesiastical literature, beginning with the Gospels and the Epistles, that exists across the entire 2000 year history of the Faith of Christ... This is the literature of the Church Fathers and ascetics.
Well, that doesn't say anything very specific and it isn't connected to any particular doctrine. But yes, there is a lot of old literature.

If you take ALL these Apostolic Churches, and throw out from your credulity ALL these doctrinal differences, you will STILL find WAY more than a 95% congruence - In fact, a 99%+ with the Oriental Orthodox and the Coptic Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox Communions...
There is nowhere near 95 or 99% congruence between the Tradition-based doctrines of the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church and they are the two largest such churches by far.
 
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bbbbbbb

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But again, that is not what "works" means in this context. It is not what faith vs works is about, and it is not what the Epistle of James (for example) refers to when speaking of good works/deeds. It doesn't refer to commendable acts of charity or mercy such as Christ spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount.

If it were, then any movement on our part would constitute a "work." That would include breathing in and out or merely showing up at the church in order to be baptized.

Therein lies the difficulty. Does faith precede or follow the act? Some, as you know, would go so far as to define faith, the mental assent on the part of the sinner, as an act of the human will and, therefore, a human work, thus pushing "faith" into a mystical realm known only to God.
 
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Albion

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Therein lies the difficulty. Does faith precede or follow the act? Some, as you know, would go so far as to define faith, the mental assent on the part of the sinner, as an act of the human will and, therefore, a human work, thus pushing "faith" into a mystical realm known only to God.
I was only commenting on the incorrect use of the term "works." ;)
 
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Arsenios

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As with most all people who follow their Church denominational teachings, instead of actual Bible study that always ends in believeing what someone wants you to believe.

Non-Church Bible study escapes this charge?

You read the Bible and tell me what it means, and I read the Bible and tell you what it means...
You go on below to tell me what you want me to believe... [in Eph 2:8-9 ] Your church agrees with you, so you can tell me with some assurance... Sounds like you are preaching a black pot and kettle...

In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear

One would think so - Repent and be Baptized - Being baptized is a work of the Church, which you understand as Tom, Dick and Roger and Emillia, and we understand as the Body of Christ... It tells us that we are Baptized INTO Christ... "For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"... And you deny that the Baptism given by the Body of Christ that enters us INTO Christ even IS Salvation... Entry INTO Christ IS Salvation...

that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

And here you ADD TO SCRIPTURE to make your point - OF ANY KIND is not in that text - Paul is specifically referring to the works of the Levitical Law in the Pre-Christian Church... And Grace needs to be capitalized, for it is by Grace, the Grace of God, that IS God, that we are Saved, because Salvation is by our UNION with God that comes through BAPTISM INTO Christ who IS God...

Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use 1 Peter 3:21 because it states “baptism now saves you.”

Indeed it does, and that Salvation can be squandered...


Baptism is entry into Christ - How anyone reading the Bible can avoid understanding that as entry into Salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven is utterly beyond me...

Yet here we are...

Paul did no better with most of the Jews...

But he saved some...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Well, that doesn't say anything very specific and it isn't connected to any particular doctrine. But yes, there is a lot of old literature.

Read the Philokalia... It spans some 1500 years of Greek ascetical writings...

There is nowhere near 95 or 99% congruence between the Tradition-based doctrines of the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church and they are the two largest such churches by far.

What I said was the Apostolic Churches... Rome did go off the rails and birthed the Reformation and the Anglicans, so maybe we can fudge some numbers, mind you...

But She is far closer to the Orthodox than are Her illegitimate children...

Arsenios
 
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Albion

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What I said was the Apostolic Churches... Rome did go off the rails and birthed the Reformation and the Anglicans, so maybe we can fudge some numbers, mind you...

But She is far closer to the Orthodox than are Her illegitimate children...

Arsenios
Just a little news note here. The church in Britain--later called "Anglican"-- is probably the oldest church in the Gentile world. That is what the RCC decreed before the Reformation occurred; and the story of how Christianity was brought to the Isles is so well-known that it was even featured in the opening of ceremonies at the London Olympic games several years ago.
 
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Major1

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Non-Church Bible study escapes this charge?

You read the Bible and tell me what it means, and I read the Bible and tell you what it means...
You go on below to tell me what you want me to believe... [in Eph 2:8-9 ] Your church agrees with you, so you can tell me with some assurance... Sounds like you are preaching a black pot and kettle...



One would think so - Repent and be Baptized - Being baptized is a work of the Church, which you understand as Tom, Dick and Roger and Emillia, and we understand as the Body of Christ... It tells us that we are Baptized INTO Christ... "For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ"... And you deny that the Baptism given by the Body of Christ that enters us INTO Christ even IS Salvation... Entry INTO Christ IS Salvation...



And here you ADD TO SCRIPTURE to make your point - OF ANY KIND is not in that text - Paul is specifically referring to the works of the Levitical Law in the Pre-Christian Church... And Grace needs to be capitalized, for it is by Grace, the Grace of God, that IS God, that we are Saved, because Salvation is by our UNION with God that comes through BAPTISM INTO Christ who IS God...



Indeed it does, and that Salvation can be squandered...


Baptism is entry into Christ - How anyone reading the Bible can avoid understanding that as entry into Salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven is utterly beyond me...

Yet here we are...

Paul did no better with most of the Jews...

But he saved some...

Arsenios

How anyone can believe that getting wet equals salvation is beyond me.

The doctrine of salvation, taught throughout all of the Scriptures and evidenced in all dispensations and ages, stresses that only repentant faith is necessary to be justified and to receive divine forgiveness.

Abraham, in Genesis 15:6......
"believed in the Lord; and [God] counted it to him for righteousness".

From one age to another, the means of getting saved has remained the same. That is why New Testament writers often refer to Old Testament characters as examples of faith. To teach that water baptism is essential to salvation in this Church Age is to say that God has changed the method to gain justification.

You my dear brother can be encouraged by Eph. 2:8.....
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".
 
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Albion

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How anyone can believe that getting wet equals salvation is beyond me.
I noticed that he several times worded that as "entry into" or "enters into," which I would interpret as something other than "equals salvation."
 
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Major1

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I noticed that he several times worded that as "entry into" or "enters into," which I would interpret as something other than "equals salvation."

I noticed that as well. I am thinking that he is speaking of The Recapitulation Theory.
 
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prodromos

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Just a little news note here. The church in Britain--later called "Anglican"-- is probably the oldest church in the Gentile world. That is what the RCC decreed before the Reformation occurred; and the story of how Christianity was brought to the Isles is so well-known that it was even featured in the opening of ceremonies at the London Olympic games several years ago.
The beginnings of the Church in Britain were certainly Orthodox, but history demonstrates that it was later subsumed into the Latin Church.
 
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prodromos

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How anyone can believe that getting wet equals salvation is beyond me.

The doctrine of salvation, taught throughout all of the Scriptures and evidenced in all dispensations and ages, stresses that only repentant faith is necessary to be justified and to receive divine forgiveness.

Abraham, in Genesis 15:6......
"believed in the Lord; and [God] counted it to him for righteousness".

From one age to another, the means of getting saved has remained the same. That is why New Testament writers often refer to Old Testament characters as examples of faith. To teach that water baptism is essential to salvation in this Church Age is to say that God has changed the method to gain justification.

You my dear brother can be encouraged by Eph. 2:8.....
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".
You seem to forget that the Epistles you quote from were written to people who were already baptised into Christ's body.
 
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Arsenios

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How anyone can believe that getting wet equals salvation is beyond me.

You are right, falling into the flowing floaters of the sewer is no help at all!

The doctrine of salvation, taught throughout all of the Scriptures and evidenced in all dispensations and ages, stresses that only repentant faith is necessary to be justified and to receive divine forgiveness.

Justification is not Salvation... It is a stage in discipleship...

Abraham, in Genesis 15:6......
"believed in the Lord; and [God] counted it to him for righteousness".

Paul in Hebrews 11:39
And these all,
having obtained a good report through faith,
received not the promise:


None of the Old Testament Believers received the Promise through faith...

That is why the Faith of Christ was discipled to His Disciples...

From one age to another, the means of getting saved has remained the same.

IF that is true for you, then you either do not understand Salvation in Christ,
or
you do not understand salvation prior to the Incarnation of Christ...

The two are very distinct...

You my dear brother can be encouraged by Eph. 2:8.....
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

So what do you understand as the referent of the word that in this passage? And why does this translation leave out the word THE before Faith? I mean, if you were to spell out this verse, would you take it to mean:
We are all saved by grace if we really believe hard enough, even though it is a Gift of God?
Or might you join with me in saying:
"For by the Grace of God are we given Salvation through the Faith of Jesus Christ, for of God is the Gift to us of His Salvation given."

For these are two very different things, you see...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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The beginnings of the Church in Britain were certainly Orthodox, but history demonstrates that it was later subsumed into the Latin Church.
And the Latin Church crushed Orthodoxy in Ireland, the Isle of Saints... And the Church of England broke free of the Latin Papal Authority and became the Anglican Latin Church, as it were - An Anglicized version of the Church of Rome... She did not return to Her Orthodox Roots...

The Anglican Church started out Apostolic,
came under the Latins when they were Orthodox prior to the Great Schism,
and after that schism
the Anglicans were invaded by the Normans in 1066
who stamped out, imprisoned, slaughtered or beheaded
all Orthodox Bishops not willing to submit to the Latins,
finishing in 1072
with the last beheading
of the last Orthodox Bishop...

So then the Apostolic Orthodoxy of England was destroyed by the Latins,
and King Henry the 8th broke that overlordship of the Latins
and created his own version of the apostatic Latin Church
which formerly had ruled England under the Normans...

'Tis a grim history, n'est pas?

Arsenios
 
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Albion

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The beginnings of the Church in Britain were certainly Orthodox, but history demonstrates that it was later subsumed into the Latin Church.
History demonstrates that it agreed to adopt the Latin form of worship during the Dark Ages, and that even thereafter, when it acknowledged the leadership of the Pope, it retained its autonomy.

When the Roman Catholic Church broke from the English church in the 16th century, the latter had been "subsumed" (to use your word) for less than four centuries out of its whole existence of about 1600 years.
 
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