Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[redleghunter]

Forgive me, I missed the difference... These Scriptures are the ones read in our Church Services - It simply means that their reading in these Services by the Church doing them is now functioning as the Ground and the Pillar of the Faith of Christ... They are useful as reproof of error, because they are written... I don't think he is proposing that the Scriptures have replaced the Church as the Ground and Pillar of the Truth... Christ IS the Truth, and He is the one Who established His Body upon the earth, and CAUSED the writing of Scripture by His Body...

Sorry I cannot give a better response - I haven't read much of Irenaeus, and do not know the context of this citation...

Arsenios

I was not setting up an "either or" dichotomy. St Paul tells us the ekklesia are members of the same Body with Christ as the Head. My point was we test our claims by the very Words spoken by God and His inspired revelation to His prophets and apostles.

Therefore, both are to be in harmony.

 

[prodromos]

St Irenaeus had a different view:

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. (Against Heresies Book 1.1)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm

He is speaking only of the Gospels, not the rest of the Scriptures..

 

[Major1]

My own opinion is that this so-called discussion has gone on too long, but the comment above is one that absolutely amazes me and has done so every one of the hundred or so times that, in my memory, it has been utilized around here by various posters.

Is the problem that you do not know what Sola Scriptura means, despite the many times it has been explained...or is the problem just that it is too good a piece of spin, of religious propaganda, to give up??

One of the best comments that I have read!!!

 

[redleghunter]

Tradition should be made subject to the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures.

The apostolic epistles make such clear.

Lovely theory. Nobody does it in practice.

What did our Master teach?

Mark 7: World English Bible (WEB)

5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why don’t your disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?”

6 He answered them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me.
7 But they worship me in vain,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 “For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things.” 9 He said to them, “Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother;’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban , that is to say, given to God”;’ 12 then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this.”

Again, you are correct...Everyone has tradition. The point of the above is not to poke people or traditions in the eye, but show how Christ differentiated between what is FROM God directly vs. what traditions men create. No matter how noble, kind or just such much be tested by the Light of Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures.

 

[Arsenios]

The Ritual of the Laying on of Hands IS in-deed the proper means of Biblical Ordination into the presbytery by the church! What's your objection now?

Well, bowl me over with a feather!!

Whodathunkit???

Proving, as my dyslexic friend keeps saying, there isadoG!

My Joy overflows!

No Objections, Your Honor...

The Defense Rests...

Luke 2:29

Arsenios

ps - I see you got 3 more hours sleep...
I logged 4 more myself...
Glory to God!

 

[Arsenios]

What did our Master teach?

Mark 7: World English Bible (WEB)

5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why don’t your disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?”

6 He answered them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me.
7 But they worship me in vain,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 “For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things.” 9 He said to them, “Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother;’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban , that is to say, given to God”;’ 12 then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this.”

The Old Testament Ekklesia was indeed the 12 Tribes of Israel - They were men first, and called of God secondarily... And whatever may be said of them, they were NOT the Body of Christ with Christ Himself as their Head... They killed the Prophets, murdered Zacharias and crucified God incarnate... And all this while being reminded by God citing their very Scriptures of all that was written, to no avail... For which cause Christ established (through them) His very Body upon the earth... Using their sins to establish Himself in His Body, the Church, in Power in the midst of the evils that this world is so plagued by after the Fall of Adam...

So you are right, Christ tried to correct His flock with Scripture, and He failed, and used the very evil which mandated His failure to establish His very Body upon the earth - All according to His Divine Will...

Do you know the difference between Salvation in the OT Ekklesia and Salvation in the New?

Again, you are correct...Everyone has tradition. The point of the above is not to poke people or traditions in the eye, but show how Christ differentiated between what is FROM God directly vs. what traditions men create. Not matter how noble, kind or just such much be tested by the Light of Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures.

Outside the Apostolic Body of Christ traditions are from men...
However much they try to make them conform to the Bible...
Inside this Apostolic Body, they are from Christ, the Head of that Holy Body...
And when men fail to keep them, Christ "will remove the Lamp-stand..."
And He has... And He does... And He will...

That is the difference between Holy Tradition and the traditions of men...

Arsenios

 

[redleghunter]

He is speaking only of the Gospels, not the rest of the Scriptures..

The New Testament is the Gospel----Good News.

If that is not convincing, here are other quotes from St Irenaeus where demonstrates the primacy of Scriptures:

Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 35)
4. Now, that the preaching of the apostles, the authoritative teaching of the Lord, the announcements of the prophets, the dictated utterances of the apostles, and the ministration of the law — all of which praise one and the same Being, the God and Father of all, and not many diverse beings, nor one deriving his substance from different gods or powers, but [declare] that all things [were formed] by one and the same Father (who nevertheless adapts [His works] to the natures and tendencies of the materials dealt with), things visible and invisible, and, in short, all things that have been made [were created] neither by angels, nor by any other power, but by God alone, the Father — are all in harmony with our statements, has, I think, been sufficiently proved, while by these weighty arguments it has been shown that there is but one God, the Maker of all things. But that I may not be thought to avoid that series of proofs which may be derived from the Scriptures of the Lord (since, indeed, these Scriptures do much more evidently and clearly proclaim this very point), I shall, for the benefit of those at least who do not bring a depraved mind to bear upon them, devote a special book to the Scriptures referred to, which shall fairly follow them out [and explain them], and I shall plainly set forth from these divine Scriptures proofs to [satisfy] all the lovers of truth. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103235.htm)

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 19)
2. For this reason [it is, said], Who shall declare His generation? Isaiah 53:8 since He is a man, and who shall recognise Him? Jeremiah 17:9 But he to whom the Father which is in heaven has revealed Him, Matthew 16:16 knows Him, so that he understands that He who was not born either by the will of the flesh, or by the will of man, John 1:13 is the Son of man, this is Christ, the Son of the living God. For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. But that He had, beyond all others, in Himself that pre-eminent birth which is from the Most High Father, and also experienced that pre-eminent generation which is from the Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 the divine Scriptures do in both respects testify of Him: also, that He was a man without comeliness, and liable to suffering; Isaiah 53:2 that He sat upon the foal of an ass; Zechariah 9:9 that He received for drink, vinegar and gall; that He was despised among the people, and humbled Himself even to death and that He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counsellor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, Isaiah 9:6 coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; Daniel 7:13 — all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103319.htm)

Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 28)
2. If, however, we cannot discover explanations of all those things in Scripture which are made the subject of investigation, yet let us not on that account seek after any other God besides Him who really exists. For this is the very greatest impiety. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit; but we, inasmuch as we are inferior to, and later in existence than, the Word of God and His Spirit, are on that very account destitute of the knowledge of His mysteries. And there is no cause for wonder if this is the case with us as respects things spiritual and heavenly, and such as require to be made known to us by revelation, since many even of those things which lie at our very feet (I mean such as belong to this world, which we handle, and see, and are in close contact with) transcend our knowledge, so that even these we must leave to God. For it is fitting that He should excel all [in knowledge]. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103228.htm)


Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 8)
1. Such, then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others they have a perfect knowledge. They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures; and, to use a common proverb, they strive to weave ropes of sand, while they endeavour to adapt with an air of probability to their own peculiar assertions the parables of the Lord, the sayings of the prophets, and the words of the apostles, in order that their scheme may not seem altogether without support. In doing so, however, they disregard the order and the connection of the Scriptures, and so far as in them lies, dismember and destroy the truth. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103108.htm)


I have more if you would like to examine.

 

[redleghunter]

And the disciple has to follow his teacher in order to understand what his teacher is teaching...
Armchair quarterbacks have one understanding, and the player on the field quite another...
Scripture was written by disciples who had been discipled - Its Holy Words flow forth from God THROUGH that discipling... When we read these words apart from that discipling, we become armchair quarterbacks... And until we ARE discipled, we will lack the basis of understanding them...

Thank-you for your response...

Arsenios

Once again you make a good point but use the white space to introduce something not referred to.

"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his lord. (Matthew 10:24)

Just as faith implies faithfulness, saying a disciple is not above his teacher means one must LISTEN to this teacher. If not then they are not disciples. Just as if someone says they have faith and their actions betray them, they are told to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5-6).

 

[Arsenios]

cher means one must LISTEN to this teacher. If not then they are not disciples. Just as if someone says they have faith and their actions betray them, they are told to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5-6).

To listen to, to hear, to attend, all these mean to OBEY...

HEAR O Israel...!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

St Paul tells us the ekklesia are members of the same Body with Christ as the Head.

This is the entire point of the Gospel of Christ...
And a wonderful way to begin your point...

My point was WE test our claims
by the very Words spoken by God
and His inspired revelation
to His prophets and apostles.

And the point is that it is the EKKLESIA that establishes and maintains and defends the Gospel of Christ...
And that Ekklesia is the one founded BY the Apostles in obedience to Christ Himself...
The SKIN of that Ekklesia is Baptism INTO Christ BY the Ekklesiastic members of the Body of Christ...
So the either-or, in the early Church to this very day, is Baptism into Christ BY Christ via His Servants who are already IN His Body...
It is the Body of Christ determines who enters into that Body...
And yes, there are tares...

The over-riding point which cannot be stressed too much is that the purpose of the Incarnation of Christ was to establish His Body upon the earth, and that it is this Body that gave us the Scriptures, Which were written for the sake of the Body... Islam these days, btw, does not do all that well with the NT, and protects while persecuting the Body of Christ in most of the countries in which it has a presence...
And yes, the Written is useful for instruction and reproof and much more...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

One of the best comments that I have read!!!

I desperately hope it soon loses that exalted status!

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Outside the Apostolic Body of Christ traditions are from men...That is the difference between Holy Tradition and the traditions of men...

Unfortunately, the traditions of men do not become Holy (let alone divine revelation or the word of God) simply because the "Apostolic Body of Christ" chooses to say that they are holy and/or from God.

 

[Major1]

I desperately hope it soon loses that exalted status!

Arsenios

If I felt as you do, I would say exactly the same thing. But als, it stands.

 

[redleghunter]

Where are the words, "Pray the Sinners prayer," or "Have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ."

Here are a couple of sinners prayers:

Luke 18:9-14: World English Bible (WEB)

9 He spoke also this parable to certain people who were convinced of their own righteousness, and who despised all others. 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: ‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortionists, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Psalm 51: World English Bible (WEB)

Have mercy on me, God, according to your loving kindness.
According to the multitude of your tender mercies, blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity.
Cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions.
My sin is constantly before me.
4 Against you, and you only, have I sinned,
and done that which is evil in your sight;
that you may be proved right when you speak,
and justified when you judge.
5 Behold, I was born in iniquity.
In sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts.
You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean.
Wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones which you have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all of my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God.
Renew a right spirit within me.
11 Don’t throw me from your presence,
and don’t take your holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation.
Uphold me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways.
Sinners shall be converted to you.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God, the God of my salvation.
My tongue shall sing aloud of your righteousness.
15 Lord, open my lips.

Personal relationship? What is more personal and intimate than being a child of God?

Romans 5:8 ESV

But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 1:10-13 ESV

He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Revelation 3:20 ESV

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Jeremiah 29:11 ESV

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

John 6:40 ESV

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 14:23 ESV

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 John 3:1 ESV

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

John 15:13 ESV

Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Romans 8:12-17 ESV

So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

There's more if you would like.

 

[prodromos]

The New Testament is the Gospel----Good News.

You must have missed the part where he specifically names the four gospels and their authors.

 

[Open Heart]

Here are a couple of sinners prayers:

Most of your verses were not prayers. How is Jesus saying,"I stand at the door and knock" a sinners prayer? It's God talking to you, not the other way around. Nice try.

None of your verses had someone praying "Come into my heart and be the Lord of my life."

 

[Arsenios]

Unfortunately, the traditions of men do not become Holy (let alone divine revelation or the word of God) simply because the "Apostolic Body of Christ" chooses to say that they are holy and/or from God.

you have only two sources for what is written in these latter times:

God, having His Holy ones in His Body, the Church, writing what He reveals to them...
Or...
Men writing, based on their own understanding, of what Scripture means...

The first wrote Scripture...
The second did not...

The Apostolic Church disciples the members of the Body of Christ in the same discipling that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles were discipled in, because this discipling, established by Christ, and transmitted by His Disciples to the Apostolic Churches, is the key to the understanding of those who would like to read them... This is the way to actually KNOW the Gospels, as they gradually reveal their meaning across time to those who are living lives of repentance in the Body of Christ and regularly read or hear them read... Indeed it is this Apostolic discipling of the Faithful that helps us "run the race set before us", as Paul notes...

Arsenios

 

[redleghunter]

You must have missed the part where he specifically names the four gospels and their authors.

In what I posted to you has Scriptures in general and more than the Gospels are referred to. The links are available as well.

 

[redleghunter]

Most of your verses were not prayers. How is Jesus saying,"I stand at the door and knock" a sinners prayer? It's God talking to you, not the other way around. Nice try.

Both examples were prayers. The one of the Publican and Psalm 51 David's prayer after he was confronted by Nathan about his sin of murder and adultery.

Two self proclaimed sinners and two prayers.

None of your verses had someone praying "Come into my heart and be the Lord of my life

The verses I provided showed the intimacy of our relationship with Christ and our standing as children of God. You need more?

“But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.”—Romans 8:10

“Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us.”—2 Corinthians 4:6-7

“But when it pleased God…to reveal His Son in me.”—Galatians 1:15-16

“I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.”—Galatians 2:20

“My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you.”—Galatians 4:19

“That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith.”—Ephesians 3:17

“Christ in you, the hope of glory.”—Colossians 1:27

Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.--2 Corinthians 13:5

 

[prodromos]

In what I posted to you has Scriptures in general and more than the Gospels are referred to. The links are available as well.

In the context, "Scriptures" refers to the Old Testament.