Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[redleghunter]

In the context, "Scriptures" refers to the Old Testament.

Not accurate. See blue highlighted again.

If that is not convincing, here are other quotes from St Irenaeus where demonstrates the primacy of Scriptures:

Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 35)
4. Now, that the preaching of the apostles, the authoritative teaching of the Lord, the announcements of the prophets, the dictated utterances of the apostles, and the ministration of the law — all of which praise one and the same Being, the God and Father of all, and not many diverse beings, nor one deriving his substance from different gods or powers, but [declare] that all things [were formed] by one and the same Father (who nevertheless adapts [His works] to the natures and tendencies of the materials dealt with), things visible and invisible, and, in short, all things that have been made [were created] neither by angels, nor by any other power, but by God alone, the Father — are all in harmony with our statements, has, I think, been sufficiently proved, while by these weighty arguments it has been shown that there is but one God, the Maker of all things. But that I may not be thought to avoid that series of proofs which may be derived from the Scriptures of the Lord (since, indeed, these Scriptures do much more evidently and clearly proclaim this very point), I shall, for the benefit of those at least who do not bring a depraved mind to bear upon them, devote a special book to the Scriptures referred to, which shall fairly follow them out [and explain them], and I shall plainly set forth from these divine Scriptures proofs to [satisfy] all the lovers of truth. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103235.htm)

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 19)
2. For this reason [it is, said], Who shall declare His generation? Isaiah 53:8 since He is a man, and who shall recognise Him? Jeremiah 17:9 But he to whom the Father which is in heaven has revealed Him, Matthew 16:16 knows Him, so that he understands that He who was not born either by the will of the flesh, or by the will of man, John 1:13 is the Son of man, this is Christ, the Son of the living God. For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. But that He had, beyond all others, in Himself that pre-eminent birth which is from the Most High Father, and also experienced that pre-eminent generation which is from the Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 the divine Scriptures do in both respects testify of Him: also, that He was a man without comeliness, and liable to suffering; Isaiah 53:2 that He sat upon the foal of an ass; Zechariah 9:9 that He received for drink, vinegar and gall; that He was despised among the people, and humbled Himself even to death and that He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counsellor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, Isaiah 9:6 coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; Daniel 7:13 — all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103319.htm)

Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 28)
2. If, however, we cannot discover explanations of all those things in Scripture which are made the subject of investigation, yet let us not on that account seek after any other God besides Him who really exists. For this is the very greatest impiety. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit; but we, inasmuch as we are inferior to, and later in existence than, the Word of God and His Spirit, are on that very account destitute of the knowledge of His mysteries. And there is no cause for wonder if this is the case with us as respects things spiritual and heavenly, and such as require to be made known to us by revelation, since many even of those things which lie at our very feet (I mean such as belong to this world, which we handle, and see, and are in close contact with) transcend our knowledge, so that even these we must leave to God. For it is fitting that He should excel all [in knowledge]. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103228.htm)


Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 8)
1. Such, then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they b

 

[Albion]

The Apostolic Church disciples the members of the Body of Christ in the same discipling that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles were discipled in, because this discipling, established by Christ, and transmitted by His Disciples to the Apostolic Churches, is the key to the understanding of those who would like to read them... This is the way to actually KNOW the Gospels, as they gradually reveal their meaning across time to those who are living lives of repentance in the Body of Christ and regularly read or hear them read... Indeed it is this Apostolic discipling of the Faithful that helps us "run the race set before us", as Paul notes...

Not much of an answer, is it?

I mean--it is what it is because the denomination that says that the material in question is divine revelation also stipulates that the denomination cannot be wrong.

 

[redleghunter]

Not much of an answer, is it?

I mean--it is what it is because the denomination that says that the material in question is divine revelation also stipulates that the denomination cannot be wrong.

Nothing like self assured veracity.

 

[Meowzltov]

Two self proclaimed sinners and two prayers.

Those are both wonderful prayers.

They are not "Sinners Prayers" even though they are the prayers of sinners. You are perhaps not familiar with the idea of a Sinner's Prayer. I don't know if they are still fashionable. They were the bee's knees back when I was an evangelical. They were little one paragraph long prayers that were said during an altar call. Usually the pastor said them and the sinner repeated them in their own heart, or a minister kneeling by the sinner would say them and the sinner repeat them. They would have three parts:
1. I'm sorry, forgive my sins
2. Come into my heart
3. Be the Lord of my life

They weren't a bad tradition. But they WERE a tradition. An Evangelical tradition. I was there. I hear it every Sunday regardless of what Evangelical church I was sitting in.

 

[redleghunter]

They are not "Sinners Prayers" even though they are the prayers of sinners.

One in the same.

 

[Meowzltov]

One in the same.

I'm the one who mentioned "Sinner's Prayers" so the conversation has to go by what *I* meant when I said it. You don't get to redefine what I meant.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm the one who mentioned "Sinner's Prayers" so the conversation has to go by what *I* meant when I said it. You don't get to redefine what I meant.

Ah. Well I guess that settles it.

 

[Major1]

Most of your verses were not prayers. How is Jesus saying,"I stand at the door and knock" a sinners prayer? It's God talking to you, not the other way around. Nice try.

None of your verses had someone praying "Come into my heart and be the Lord of my life."

How sad it is to me that a "Sinners Prayer" would need to be explained to a sinner.

 

[Major1]

Not much of an answer, is it?

I mean--it is what it is because the denomination that says that the material in question is divine revelation also stipulates that the denomination cannot be wrong.

Isn't that the same as me saying that I am pretty because I said that I was pretty.

 

[Albion]

''Pretty'' much, yes. Except that it also includes the claim that God has endowed you with infallibility, so that when you say you're pretty, it cannot be challenged.

 

[bbbbbbb]

''Pretty'' much, yes. Except that it also includes the claim that God has endowed you with infallibility, so that when you say you're pretty, it cannot be challenged.

Even worse, should you be so bold as to hint at a challenge you will be charged with heresy and will suffer the consequences.

 

[Major1]

I'm the one who mentioned "Sinner's Prayers" so the conversation has to go by what *I* meant when I said it. You don't get to redefine what I meant.

The thought occurred to me that since you are so adamantly against "A Sinners Prayer", how then did you get saved my dear???

Romans 10:9 says.......
"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

 

[Arsenios]

How sad it is to me that a "Sinners Prayer" would need to be explained to a sinner.

Well, you see, there actually are SOME of us wretched sinners who actually DO desire repentance from our sins, you see - Some of us actually DO want to live lives that are ever turning from the temptations of the world and worldly passions and to actually LIVE a Life that dies daily 1Cor 15:31 . And for those few wretched ones thirsting for God, a word of explanation of something written in, say, Psalm 50 (Psalm 51 in the non-Christian Jewish Bible) is a treasure to hear...

As for the rest of us, we are fat and happy in our self assured lack of need for anyone to ever have to lower ourselves to ANONE, and actually RECEIVE an explanation of ANYTHING related to David's great Psalm of Repentance, or any other prayer that we might find in the Bible or anywhere else... We are sinners, after all, and we don't NEED no stinking explainations...

So tell me, Major 1: HOW sad are you? Do you PRAY for them night and day? Do you pray for them on your knees in the snow at 3 in the morning with tears? Do you beseech God for them that they should find a way to repentance? Do you seek them out on websites and instruct them on the meaning of repentance? Or do you simply brush them off with a mental "tsk - tsk" and in that arrogance tell them "How sad it is to me that a 'Sinners Prayer' would need to be explained to a sinner."

I mean, you sounded incredibly smug to me...

PLEASE, my Brother...

Please prove me wrong...

I have been proven wrong once already here...

And for that, I would fall in the shadow of PBJ...

Please let me fall again...

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

Those are both wonderful prayers.

They are not "Sinners Prayers" even though they are the prayers of sinners. You are perhaps not familiar with the idea of a Sinner's Prayer. I don't know if they are still fashionable. They were the bee's knees back when I was an evangelical. They were little one paragraph long prayers that were said during an altar call. Usually the pastor said them and the sinner repeated them in their own heart, or a minister kneeling by the sinner would say them and the sinner repeat them. They would have three parts:
1. I'm sorry, forgive my sins
2. Come into my heart
3. Be the Lord of my life

They weren't a bad tradition. But they WERE a tradition. An Evangelical tradition. I was there. I hear it every Sunday regardless of what Evangelical church I was sitting in.

Actually, there is NO salvation in the sinners Prayer!

Instead, we must truly trust in Christ to forgive us of our sins against God.

Many people over the years walk away from saying a sinners prayer still dead in their sins, but believing what they've been told. "I believed what my friend told me, and I prayed a prayer. So, now I'm a Christian!"

 

[Major1]

Well, you see, there actually are SOME of us wretched sinners who actually DO desire repentance from our sins, you see - Some of us actually DO want to live lives that are ever turning from the temptations of the world and worldly passions and to actually LIVE a Life that dies daily 1Cor 15:31 . And for those few wretched ones thirsting for God, a word of explanation of something written in, say, Psalm 50 (Psalm 51 in the non-Christian Jewish Bible) is a treasure to hear...

As for the rest of us, we are fat and happy in our self assured lack of need for anyone to ever have to lower ourselved to ANONE and actually RECEIVE an explanation of anything related to David's great Psalm of Repentance, or any other prayer that we might find in the Bible or anywhere else... We are sinners, after all, and we don't NEED no stinking explainations...

So tell me, Major 1: HOW sad are you? Do you PRAY for them night and day? Do you pray for them on your knees in the snow at 3 in the morning with tears? Do you beseech God for them that they should find a way to repentance? Do you seek them out on websites and instruct them on the meaning of repentance? Or do you simply brush them off with a mental "tsk - tsk" and in that arrogance tell them "How sad it is to me that a "Sinners Prayer" would need to be explained to a sinner."

I mean, you sounded incredibly smug to me...

PLEASE, my Brother...

Please prove me wrong...

I have been proven wrong once already here...

And for that, I would fall in the shadow of PBJ...

Please let me fall again...

Arsenios

My dear friend, anyone who claims to be a Christian but does not know how to pray a sinners prayer brings the questions of then......"How did you then get saved".

For you to suggest that YOU are one of the wretched few who try to live a life of repentance is actually showing your arrogance. Why would you think that the rest of us are not tying to do the very same thing.

Now my dear friend, you do not know me very well at all. IF you did you would not have presumed to say what you just said about who or what I pray for. I find your comment very subjective that you would question anyone's motives for what they pray for.

If you had asked me privately I would have been glad to detail for you the many missionary trips I have been on to several different countries for one reason.....
To get out the Word of God to those who are lost and are not saved.
To tell you the number of people saved would be bragging but I can promise you that every single one was prayed for, and any Christian who says that his heart is not broken over the lost people all around us is actually not a Christian at all.

 

[Arsenios]

Ah. Well I guess that settles it.



View attachment 218803

I think she was referring to the sinner's prayer used at altar calls by Evangellicals...
It would seem that you spun that into "any and all prayers by sinners"...
And then you have mocked her...
And have all snarkily congratulated each other on your great victory...

OR

"How the West was LOST"

An old un-thriller whose pages are lost in the dustings of time...

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

I think she was referring to the sinner's prayer used at altar calls by Evangellicals...
It would seem that you spun that into "any and all prayers by sinners"...
And then you have mocked her...
And have all snarkily congratulated each other on your great victory...

OR

"How the West was LOST"

An old un-thriller whose pages are lost in the dustings of time...

Arsenios

What difference does it make if a sinners prayer is said at an alter call, or the back yard?

A prayer of repentance is required to be saved, is it not?

 

[Arsenios]

My dear friend, anyone who claims to be a Christian but does not know how to pray a sinners prayer brings the questions of then......"How did you then get saved".

God saves... God alone... None other than God...

For you to suggest that YOU are one of the wretched few who try to live a life of repentance is actually showing your arrogance. Why would you think that the rest of us are not tying to do the very same thing.

Because I wrote "SOME of us"? And then "the REST of us"?
I am in both camps...
And so, my dear Brother, are you...

Now my dear friend, you do not know me very well at all. IF you did you would not have presumed to say what you just said about who or what I pray for. I find your comment very subjective that you would question anyone's motives for what they pray for.

I simply asked a question: HOW SAD are you? And gave some examples of how sad you might actually be... Then I confessed that TO ME your "HOW SAD" comment seemed smug, and even, I might add, snarky... I PRAY I am wrong, and begged you to prove me wrong...

If you had asked me privately I would have been glad to detail for you the many missionary trips I have been on to several different countries for one reason.....

Well, the Pharisee cited all that he had done and even is doing in his self defense...

To get out the Word of God to those who are lost and are not saved.

I thank God that you did so...

To tell you the number of people saved would be bragging but I can promise you that every single one was prayed for, and any Christian who says that his heart is not broken over the lost people all around us is actually not a Christian at all.

God bless this last - It forms the matrix of what I like to think of as a START...

I am glad you know God...

I did not question your motives for what you DO pray for...
I questioned your prayers for the one of whom you said: HOW SAD...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

A prayer of repentance is required to be saved, is it not?

Hmmm. Is it? Or is contrition and a commitment what's really required, as opposed to a formal declaration?

 

[Arsenios]

What difference does it make if a sinners prayer is said at an alter call, or the back yard?

A prayer of repentance is required to be saved, is it not?

I am hardly typical, mind you...
Isaiah foretold of my ilk: "They will find Me who were not seeking Me..."
So no, it is not required... As Scripture affirms:
"I will have Mercy on whom I WILL have Mercy"
Did not Christ save the Wise Thief who confessed Him on the Cross?
Confession, you see, is the first step of repentance...
Without repentance, there is no salvation...

I was so fed up with self-sanctimonious so-called Christians that none would I ever allow anywhere near me... Nor did I ever pray any prayer of repentance at all... I knew God outside ALL these understandings... I found the God I scorned and avoided... I was not seeking Him...

God Saves, because only He has Salvation to Give to us...
Because He IS Salvation,
and ONLY He has Himself to GIVE...

You did then re-define what she was talking about, yes?

And if you did, you owe her an apology...

No matter how many missions you have been on...

Humility, my Brother...

It is everything!

Arsenios