Catholics Becoming Protestant

[FireDragon76]

I'm not sure about that, but they certainly are less so than the mainline churches and their people.

That is not confirmed in my experience, and I believe it is misleading and gives an inaccurate portrayal of our churches. In my experience, our churches are relatively moderate in that definitive political stances are seldom welcomed without great deliberation in a synodical fashion, and we are generally liberal on matters of individual conscience, including how we vote.

Evangelical Lutherans are one of the least political churches I have ever been affiliated with. Our presiding bishop, Elizabeth Eaton, encouraged reconciliation after last year's presidential election. Partisan political discussion or debate is taboo at my church.
We are opposed to churches endorsing political candidates.

 

[fide]

I agree that the Roman Church is in crisis at least in the West but then again most other church bodies are as well. Having come from the RCC here are my observations:

1. Catechesis for the last several decades has been a disaster or non-existent. Most RCC's I know confuse the Immaculate conception with the Virgin Birth and deny the doctrine of the Mass as examples off the top of my head. Functionally, the ones I know are basically liturgical Evangelicals already so it does not surprise me that's where former RCC's tend to end up.
2. The Church that Rome in her official pronouncements differs greatly with the church on the ground. Gone are the days when the parish priest demanded from his parishioners a faith and manner of life consistent with Church teaching. If a priest demanded that single folks refrain from living together before marriage I suspect church giving and attendance would plummet to say nothing of the number of marriages. The deep theology of the Church and the figures from the past are ignored with a benign neglect. What happens on Sunday usually is a three point homily on how to be a good person. A person formed in that context is usually vaccinated against any orthodox belief rather then being formed by orthodox belief.
3. The RCC child sex abuse scandal from the early 2000's had a more profound effect than most people think. I am not talking about victims here. Between the loss of trust in the ecclesiastical structures and the surrender of parishes and properties that were bequeathed to the Church to pay for the damages has left a lot of ordinary folks cold to the Church. It may not be the primary reason why these folks left but I suspect it was the first step in a longer journey out of the Church.
4. Vatican II has been a disaster for the Church. Church attendance collapsed and vocations to the priesthood evaporated. Call it the "spirit of VII" but the council has effectively gutted the faith and substance of the church that had existed for at least a millennia and probably longer. What took its place would be correct to call "Cultural Do Goodism". I realize that wasn't the intent of the council but that is what has taken place.

I have no data to back this up just my personal experience on the matter. I am no friend to the church of Rome but I think it would be unwise to see what has happened here and think that it won't happen to other church bodies.

Hello Athanasius377. As a faithful Catholic, I nevertheless have to agree with much of your sad assessment of the Catholic Church today. All of these current problems, however, do not change one bit my fidelity to the Church - the Church is true. Her doctrines are true and remain true; her sacraments are true and remain true; her moral teachings are true and remain true - regardless of the many failings and failures of her members: failings of the laity, failings of priests and deacons, failings of bishops, failings of popes.

The Church remains true because Christ remains in her and with her ("Lo I am with you until the close of the age!" - Mt 28:20) , and because the Holy Spirit is faithful in His mission given by Jesus, to "guide you into all the truth" (Jn 16:13). God remains faithful to His promises, no matter how faithless His people may become. Yes it is painful to witness! Jesus wept over faithless Jerusalem! But He remained faithful.

(I note that your namesake, Athanasius, remained faithful to the Truth, though it appeared the "whole world" of the Church was falling to Arianism! (yes, "Athanasius Contra Mundum!"))

 

[dqhall]

True story. A Catholic young man who lived with his parents across the street form us in the late 80's married a woman who was a Protestant. She was a missionary in the Methodist denomination.

After several years according to his testimony to me, he said that he had accepted Jesus as his savior and wanted to join our Protestant church. So that is what he and his wife did.

When that happened his parents completely dissociated themselves from their son. They did not see or talk with him for the next 10 years or so. While that was going on he developed kidney cancer. I personally went to his parents and talked with them and encouraged them to reconcile with their child but they refused.

He passed away shortly after that never again speaking with his parents and they did not even attend his funeral.

I later discovered that, that is the normal procedure when a family member becomes saved and leaves the Catholic church.

In Ireland c. 1900 only about 1% of marriages were between Catholics and Protestants. My dad is Protestant and my mother is Catholic. My mom got sick with dementia. My dad had to drive her to mass, but did not convert to Catholicism.

Protestant churches allow the use of artificial birth control by married couples to help with family planning. Some make it a point to forbid sex outside of marriage, others do not even mention it in their services. Roman Catholic churches do not allow artificial birth control. Haiti is described as 80% Catholic. To me the island is obviously overpopulated and impoverished as they have outgrown their resources. I think the Protestant churches offer a better deal.

I met one lady who said she left the Catholic Church because she was divorced and wanted to remarry.

 

[Major1]

In Ireland c. 1900 only about 1% of marriages were between Catholics and Protestants. My dad is Protestant and my mother is Catholic. My mom got sick with dementia. My dad had to drive her to mass, but did not convert to Catholicism.

Protestant churches allow the use of artificial birth control by married couples to help with family planning. Some make it a point to forbid sex outside of marriage, others do not even mention it in their services. Roman Catholic churches do not allow artificial birth control. Haiti is described as 80% Catholic. To me the island is obviously overpopulated and impoverished as they have outgrown their resources. I think the Protestant churches offer a better deal.

I met one lady who said she left the Catholic Church because she was divorced and wanted to remarry.

I understand your comment.

I do not say this to cause you any disrespect what so ever but if you think that Catholic believers DO NOT practice birth control you are very sadly mistaken my friend. I worked many years in the Pharmacy business and I can with great authority tell you that just as many Catholic women take the pill and use propalactics as do Protestant women.

Every Protestant church I have ever been involved in does on a regular basis condemn abortion.

 

[Radagast]

Evangelical Lutherans are ...

Of course, when the Pew survey says "evangelical Lutheran," they mean LCMS and LCWS, but not ELCA.

 

[PeaceB]

True story. A Catholic young man who lived with his parents across the street form us in the late 80's married a woman who was a Protestant. She was a missionary in the Methodist denomination.

After several years according to his testimony to me, he said that he had accepted Jesus as his savior and wanted to join our Protestant church. So that is what he and his wife did.

When that happened his parents completely dissociated themselves from their son. They did not see or talk with him for the next 10 years or so. While that was going on he developed kidney cancer. I personally went to his parents and talked with them and encouraged them to reconcile with their child but they refused.

He passed away shortly after that never again speaking with his parents and they did not even attend his funeral.

I later discovered that, that is the normal procedure when a family member becomes saved and leaves the Catholic church.

Well that is fanciful.

 

[FireDragon76]

Of course, when the Pew survey says "evangelical Lutheran," they mean LCMS and LCWS, but not ELCA.

Yes. But LCMS are not really "evangelicals" in the sense most pollsters understand, either. Their religious culture has its own separate and independent identity and institutions.

 

[Radagast]

Yes. But LCMS are not really "evangelicals" in the sense most pollsters understand, either. Their religious culture has its own separate and independent identity and institutions.

It's a rather useless word, actually, because it means different things to different people. In their surveys of religion, Pew gives it a specific meaning, which is why they count LCMS as "evangelical," and ELCA as "mainline."

 

[FireDragon76]

It's a rather useless word, actually, because it means different things to different people. In their surveys of religion, Pew gives it a specific meaning, which is why they count LCMS as "evangelical," and ELCA as "mainline."

Yeah, it's beyond useless. We are the original evangelicals, our theology is all about the Gospel. There's something wrong when "evangelical" becomes better known for moralism, legalism, and culturally conservative activism, than actual theological distinctions.

 

[Radagast]

There's something wrong when "evangelical" becomes better known for moralism, legalism, and culturally conservative activism

Of course, that is not how Pew uses the term.

 

[Rajni]

The reason that THEY said they are no longer Catholic is because they got saved, began to read the Bible and could not remain in the Catholic church.

This is why I had left it when I did. Ephesians 2:8-9 was one of the verses that put me over the edge. ツ Having assurance of one's salvation wasn't taught while I was a Catholic. In fact, we were taught to think that such certainty was presumptuous.

In my case, however, and much later on, I returned to the Catholic Church with renewed enthusiasm, although I had no intention of giving up the beliefs I already acquired since having left it before. In hindsight, I think my desire to return -- and it was literally a craving, and lasted for weeks before I finally gave in to it (weird, I know) -- was just as much natural as it was spiritual. It was the religion of my upbringing; had I been raised Hindu, I probably would have had a similar urge to return to that, because I was getting older, it was comforting in its familiarity, etc.

In the case with Catholicism, I also appreciated the solemnity and beauty of the worship. During my Protestant years, I would go through periods where I needed what I call a "liturgy-fix". Catholicism definitely took care of that! ◠‿◠

-

 

[tadoflamb]

As we like to say around here, the largest protestant denomination in the Diocese of Tucson are fallen away Catholics. It's almost a rich of mission field as the Catholic Church itself.

I suppose the testimonies of Catholics leaving the faith of their fathers would be more compelling if they all landed in the same place, but they don't. Some bounce from denomination to denomination until they find one that agrees with their beliefs or they find no new denomination at all. In the case of most of the ex-Catholics I know, they've left Christianity altogether.

The other thing I've noticed about protestant ex-Catholics is that their decision to leave the Church remains one of their defining moments of self-determination. We all know who the ex-Catholics are around here because they like to tell their story. Problem is, the collective witness is only impressive in the amount of division they have created.

 

[Albion]

That is not confirmed in my experience, and I believe it is misleading and gives an inaccurate portrayal of our churches. .

Amazing.

 

[badatusernames]

Now that is something that I have never observed. Maybe that is true in the Episcopalian or Lutheran churches but surely not in the Baptist or Pentecostal churches.

I am talking about Episcopalian and Lutheran churches, especially still in the Episcopal Church it is very liturgical.

 

[Albion]

According to Pew, Orthodox numbers are dropping in the US, from 0.6% in 2007 to 0.5% in 2014.

Nondenominational Christian groups are growing (4.5% to 6.2%), as are Pentecostals (4.4% to 4.6%), and SDAs (0.5% to 0.6%).

Evangelical Presbyterians are holding (at 0.8%), as are Independent Baptists (2.5%).

Every other group seems to be shrinking.

Yeh, I am not surprised at any of that; but when it comes to Catholics and ex-Catholics, something about these charts didn't seem just right and then it occurred to me. By the graphs, the number of Catholics is declining, but the study apparently is comparing the movements of Americans from one American denomination to another, not the total number of bodies in one church or another.

The Catholic Church in this country has been holding steady or growing slightly, but if it were not for Latin American immigrants, she would have declined noticeably. That was confirmed by some other study.

 

[Radagast]

The Catholic Church in this country has been holding steady or growing slightly, but if it were not for Latin American immigrants, she would have declined noticeably. That was confirmed by some other study.

Good point, those Pew numbers only relate to religious switching. There is also immigration and babies.

 

[Major1]

I am talking about Episcopalian and Lutheran churches, especially still in the Episcopal Church it is very liturgical.

If you and I attended an Episcopalian church, how would we know it was not Catholic?

 

[badatusernames]

If you and I attended an Episcopalian church, how would we know it was not Catholic?

The Episcopal Church is apart of the Anglican Communion and not the Roman Catholic Church. There is subtle difference in liturgy from what I have read and remember going to Catholic Mass, like for example, their Eucharistic prayers are different, and they do not bow for Mary like I have seen in the Catholic Mass during the recitation of the Nicene Creed. The biggest differences are that their priests can be married or even a woman, and there can be gay and lesbian couples freely open in church.

 

[Silmarien]

And I'm sorry, that chart was from an old survey. Here is the most recent. Mainline groups are shrinking a little, and the Catholic Church is in collapse (no wonder the bishops are worried):

I find it interesting that about half of the Nones reaffiliate later in life. That suggests that progressive secularization may not actually be occurring and that different churches are going to need to be competing to lure the Nones back. (Contrary to popular opinion, most of us are not atheists.)

It does not surprise me that the Evangelicals are the most successful at that, since often it seems like they're the only ones trying at all. From an outsider perspective, it appears that Mainline Protestants are morally opposed to evangelization and will be tentative even if you want them to convince you, Catholic apologetics is mostly just aimed at Protestants anyway, and Orthodoxy hasn't even managed to publicize the fact that it exists. It's a marketplace, and Evangelicalism really has a monopoly.

 

[Albion]

If you and I attended an Episcopalian church, how would we know it was not Catholic?

First off, it's an Episcopal church, not an Episcopalian church. And the difference would be in the absence, in the liturgy, of those distinctly Roman Catholic doctrines that were rejected during the Reformation (and which we debate here all the time, it seems). The structure would be, in both cases, the general format of prayer, worship, and instruction that dates back to ancient times, but the exact wording makes a big difference to those who are paying attention.