Catholics and "the Sacred Heart of Mary"

~Anastasia~

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I was recently studying the Book of James and came across this, which seems to lay out a moral equation:

James 1:12-15
"Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it; then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death."

This seems to say that one's own desire precedes sin, which leads to death. This is what Catholics call concupiscence, which is a natural inclination to sin. A good definition can be found in the CCC.
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."
I'm not sure I understand what you mean to say by this? Would you be implying that in the case if the IC, the Theotokos would not have concupisence, which means she would not die? I think I probably misunderstand you?
 
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tz620q

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean to say by this? Would you be implying that in the case if the IC, the Theotokos would not have concupisence, which means she would not die? I think I probably misunderstand you?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was really just trying to lay out why Catholics believe that original sin is innate to the human condition, a fallen nature that is inherited by offspring from their parents along with everything else that we get. Like begetting like. If we view sin as a disease contracted from a sinful world, it would influence a lot of what we do as Christians. For one, human logic would be to distance oneself from the fallen world, which might explain the rise of Christian hermits in the early Church. That might seem like a good thing; but for me, most of those people would not be so much trying to find God as fleeing humanity in fear. If we view the inclination to sin as already there from birth, we are forced to deal with the issue within and even in the monastic life, interact with humanity and the rest of the world. In the first approach, we seem to each be experiencing Adam's fall personally, on an inevitable journey from original grace, through sin, to mortality. This condition would have been just as prevalent before Christ as after and leads to Christ being more of a good example to follow than someone who fundamentally changed humanity's condition.

The Orthodox viewpoint on ancestral sin seems to be that the disease of sin is what is transmitted from Adam to his offspring, a germ of corrupted willfulness that is the origin of our death. So each human being is born with the potential for mortality or immortality, which begs the question of whether this is spiritual only or physical immortality. But the disease is 100% fatal, since each of us inevitably fall. In this viewpoint, is Christ seen as medicinal and if so, is this medicine one that treats the symptoms of sin or curative?

For me, I think the Eastern Catholic thought on seeing both sides is illuminating. God's justice is not incongruous with God's love; but a manifestation of it. But you cannot look upon the issue from a purely wrathful viewpoint. The purely juridicial view seems to be one more articulated within Protestant theology than Catholic. So for me, most Orthodox arguments miss the mark, because they are arguing against predestination, total depravity, and inherited guilt. For a Catholic, we would say that we are never outside of God's love and that part of that love is mercy. Sometimes mercy is disciplinary. It is not something that God wishes to happen; but something that is necessary to confront humanity with the consequences of sin. Is humanity punished for Adam's sin because we are guilty of his offense? We have posted enough in above posts for you to see that we do not believe this.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you for clarifying. I apologize, I'm not in a very good condition at the moment to think critically. I might be able to revisit it more carefully in a day or so.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was really just trying to lay out why Catholics believe that original sin is innate to the human condition, a fallen nature that is inherited by offspring from their parents along with everything else that we get. Like begetting like. If we view sin as a disease contracted from a sinful world, it would influence a lot of what we do as Christians. For one, human logic would be to distance oneself from the fallen world, which might explain the rise of Christian hermits in the early Church. That might seem like a good thing; but for me, most of those people would not be so much trying to find God as fleeing humanity in fear. If we view the inclination to sin as already there from birth, we are forced to deal with the issue within and even in the monastic life, interact with humanity and the rest of the world.

My usual interaction with monastic texts and sensibilities is that escaping the temptations of the world is indeed very much of the reason for separation and retreat. Also that the inclination of man to sin (not necessarily present since birth though, but recognized in the individual) is very closely focused on by monks. In fact, laymen sometimes need careful guidance not to fall too deeply into misunderstanding this as it can lead to something like what you would call - ah, I forget the word. As I said, I'm not in good condition. The ones who are TOO focused on their sins for a healthy understanding?

In the first approach, we seem to each be experiencing Adam's fall personally, on an inevitable journey from original grace, through sin, to mortality. This condition would have been just as prevalent before Christ as after and leads to Christ being more of a good example to follow than someone who fundamentally changed humanity's condition.

The Orthodox viewpoint on ancestral sin seems to be that the disease of sin is what is transmitted from Adam to his offspring, a germ of corrupted willfulness that is the origin of our death. So each human being is born with the potential for mortality or immortality, which begs the question of whether this is spiritual only or physical immortality.

I'm not sure I can address the rest, because this is not accurate. The curse of death fell upon mankind collectively. Ancestral sin means we all die. One does not need to commit personal sin to die, and a lack of it does not confer immortality. Babies die in the womb and as infants, after all. The curse is on ALL of us.

But the disease is 100% fatal, since each of us inevitably fall. In this viewpoint, is Christ seen as medicinal and if so, is this medicine one that treats the symptoms of sin or curative?

I think this is one reason the early Church (and so the Orthodox) focus on Christus Victor. Yes, Christ was a sacrifice. Yes, Christ reconciled us with God. But we emphasize Christ's victory over and abolishment of death, which is the curse falling on all of mankind as a result of Adam's sin.

For me, I think the Eastern Catholic thought on seeing both sides is illuminating. God's justice is not incongruous with God's love; but a manifestation of it. But you cannot look upon the issue from a purely wrathful viewpoint. The purely juridicial view seems to be one more articulated within Protestant theology than Catholic. So for me, most Orthodox arguments miss the mark, because they are arguing against predestination, total depravity, and inherited guilt. For a Catholic, we would say that we are never outside of God's love and that part of that love is mercy. Sometimes mercy is disciplinary. It is not something that God wishes to happen; but something that is necessary to confront humanity with the consequences of sin. Is humanity punished for Adam's sin because we are guilty of his offense? We have posted enough in above posts for you to see that we do not believe this.

I am not sure of the Eastern Catholic view, but I think what you say misses the point of most Orthodox thinking. It STILL isn't about wrath, justice, punishment. That emphasis seems to have come in with later Church fathers.

Most Orthodox will speak in terms of God's LOVE - God IS love. He loves sinners too, and loves those who reject Him. His desire is that they all repent and be saved. Forgiveness is offered to all. But it is not imposed on anyone. For any who willingly choose to reject it, and stand against God, they are allowed. And their sin and hatred of God will warp them. They will be unable to bear the purity and fierceness of the love of an everywhere-present God. So God still loves them, but they will experience it as torment because they do not confirm to His image, are unable and unwilling to receive it, and yet cannot escape the reality of it.

I'm not sure how this advances the conversation. I'm not thinking well. But I can at least put that forth to hopefully better explain our position.

It is indeed incredibly illuminating, I would say. Glory to God!
 
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tz620q

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Thank you for clarifying. I apologize, I'm not in a very good condition at the moment to think critically. I might be able to revisit it more carefully in a day or so.



My usual interaction with monastic texts and sensibilities is that escaping the temptations of the world is indeed very much of the reason for separation and retreat. Also that the inclination of man to sin (not necessarily present since birth though, but recognized in the individual) is very closely focused on by monks. In fact, laymen sometimes need careful guidance not to fall too deeply into misunderstanding this as it can lead to something like what you would call - ah, I forget the word. As I said, I'm not in good condition. The ones who are TOO focused on their sins for a healthy understanding?
I think you mean scrupulosity. It was a condition that Luther seemed to suffer from and it is my opinion that his viewpoint of humanity as nothing but unclean rags (the actual translation of Isaiah is even more graphic) was influenced by it.


I'm not sure I can address the rest, because this is not accurate. The curse of death fell upon mankind collectively. Ancestral sin means we all die. One does not need to commit personal sin to die, and a lack of it does not confer immortality. Babies die in the womb and as infants, after all. The curse is on ALL of us.
I guess the next stepping stone is in how this curse of death is propagated from Adam onward.

I think this is one reason the early Church (and so the Orthodox) focus on Christus Victor. Yes, Christ was a sacrifice. Yes, Christ reconciled us with God. But we emphasize Christ's victory over and abolishment of death, which is the curse falling on all of mankind as a result of Adam's sin.



I am not sure of the Eastern Catholic view, but I think what you say misses the point of most Orthodox thinking. It STILL isn't about wrath, justice, punishment. That emphasis seems to have come in with later Church fathers.

Most Orthodox will speak in terms of God's LOVE - God IS love. He loves sinners too, and loves those who reject Him. His desire is that they all repent and be saved. Forgiveness is offered to all. But it is not imposed on anyone. For any who willingly choose to reject it, and stand against God, they are allowed. And their sin and hatred of God will warp them. They will be unable to bear the purity and fierceness of the love of an everywhere-present God. So God still loves them, but they will experience it as torment because they do not confirm to His image, are unable and unwilling to receive it, and yet cannot escape the reality of it.

I'm not sure how this advances the conversation. I'm not thinking well. But I can at least put that forth to hopefully better explain our position.

It is indeed incredibly illuminating, I would say. Glory to God!

Everything that you have just said could be agreed upon by a Catholic. Which leads us to more of a difference in emphasis. In my viewpoint, on the scale in emphasis from man as purely good to man as purely evil, the Orthodox probably see man as mostly good, the Catholics as a balance of good and evil, and the Protestants (if I can be so bold as to state an opinion on such a diverse group) see man more evil than good. Now might be a good time to bring in the concept of theosis.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I think you mean scrupulosity. It was a condition that Luther seemed to suffer from and it is my opinion that his viewpoint of humanity as nothing but unclean rags (the actual translation of Isaiah is even more graphic) was influenced by it.

Yes, scrupulousity, thank you. :) I've actually been interested in learning a bit more as I think understanding better could benefit me. But yes, that's what I meant. :) Just couldn't get the word. (Medical procedures, a pain pill finally, not much sleep.)

I guess the next stepping stone is in how this curse of death is propagated from Adam onward.

I'm not sure we (Orthodox) need say it's propagated. It simply IS. All of creation was cursed, not only Adam (though by his fault and for his sake). It is simply the reality all are born into, so if you mean something like genetic transmission or heredity, it isn't really necessary?

Everything that you have just said could be agreed upon by a Catholic. Which leads us to more of a difference in emphasis. In my viewpoint, on the scale in emphasis from man as purely good to man as purely evil, the Orthodox probably see man as mostly good, the Catholics as a balance of good and evil, and the Protestants (if I can be so bold as to state an opinion on such a diverse group) see man more evil than good.

This is a point where I'd prefer more experienced Orthodox confirmation, but the overwhelming impression I get is that children are born mostly good, but with a bent to self. And that self asserts itself through perverting good desires, and those desires can (and generally do) become progressively more ungodly and selfish, while at the same time making the person himself more ungodly through indulging/desiring them.

So how "good" a person is depends on age, barring any other influence. But of course we hope for influence, which is the grace of God, purifying the person and his desires, making him more like Christ instead. Which we would subjectively see as more "good" ... though the purified man himself does not see himself as "good" because in the pricess of being purified, he gains a clearer view of God, and so by comparison actually notices his own sins even more.

Now might be a good time to bring in the concept of theosis.

Indeed. It seems the perfect time, which I guess I began to introduce in the above paragraph. :)
 
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prodromos

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I'd say that's incorrect.



It seems that this is a controversial issue in the Orthodox Church, especially prior to the Catholic promulgation of the dogma.

For example, Orthodox priest Lev Gillet concludes his discussion of the topic thus:
Fr Gillet was a former Catholic monk who converted to Orthodoxy. It seems he was unable to shake off all the errors of his former communion.
 
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Sammy-San

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I understand that, but I asked whether she was subject to death and had an innate proclivity for sin, just as all others do?



But of course the answer is both. She was born without Original Sin and she consciously did not sin. On the other hand, Eve was born without a proclivity to sin and she did consciously choose to sin.



So you hold that she was born with a proclivity to sin?

Do you agree with this article? it's not about Eve but it's about the same concept you mentioned.

Why did God allow the Satan and the demons to sin?

God offers no explanation as to why this occurred, but we do know from elsewhere in Scripture that God refers to the angels that did not fall as his "elect angels" (1 Timothy 5:21). Apparently, just as it is with humanity, the angels were found to have either of two invested natures, some with a nature that loved God and sought to follow Him, and some that when given the chance to rebel, took it. We do not know why God chose to do things this way. We can only assume that in His infinite wisdom, He deemed it to be the best way. The Bible makes it clear that God did not force the fallen angels to fall, for He cannot tempt anyone to evil and is not tempted to evil Himself (James 1:13), so it must be assumed that the demons fell because it was in their nature to do so, and when given the choice to rebel against God, they did what they desired to do.
 
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zippy2006

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zippy2006

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Is there a third nature? A nature with inclinations to rebel but also a desire to be righteous?

For the sake of humanity, I hope so. :)

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.​
 
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This is most apparent in the Catholic practice of choosing a body part of hers such as her heart and venerating that specifically. If she was a great woman, but simply woman (human) how could her heart be Divine and sacred? Why is her "sacred heart" venerated?

Actually, it is the "Immaculate Heart of Mary."
Jesus has His "Sacred Heart."

Not that I believe that Jesus (or Mary) should be chopped up into pieces and venerated piece by piece. Rather, we should worship the WHOLE Jesus, and honor the Virgin Mary as a person, and not worry about her parts.

Have you ever heard anyone praising the miracle producing liver of the Virgin?
 
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Basil the Great

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I'm not familiar with any practice holding Mary's heart to be divine or even sacred; it is usually referred to as "Immaculate."



This is a controversial title for Mary, and I'm not sure it has been officially recognized by the Church.
As I have posted many times on Christian Forums, rumor has it that John Paul the Great wanted to issue a new Marian Dogma and officially decree Mary to be Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces, but decided not to do so for fear of harming hopes of reunification with the EO Church.
 
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Landon Caeli

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I'm glad to hear "co-redemptrix" is considered controversial.

Since coming to CF, I have found it best to ask Catholics what Catholics believe, and so on. I'm afraid there is a good deal of misrepresentation out there, and a good deal of it specifically directed at Catholicism.

Your kindness, and the kindness of the Orthodox on these forums is always appreciated, Anastasia.
 
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prodromos

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As I have posted many times on Christian Forums, rumor has it that John Paul the Great wanted to issue a new Marian Dogma and officially decree Mary to be Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces, but decided not to do so for fear of harming hopes of reunification with the EO Church.
That would be the least of their worries. Papal infallibility, papal universal jurisdiction and the filioque already make reunification impossible.
 
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~Anastasia~

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That would be the least of their worries. Papal infallibility, papal universal jurisdiction and the filioque already make reunification impossible.

I'm afraid I agree that issues with the Pope and the Creed are insurmountable as they stand. But I can appreciate that other doctrines that would get in the way are not added.

Making the Virgin Mary "Co-Redemptrix" would seem to have issues of possibly making her divine, and/or putting her work on a level with Christ's, which would also stand in the way. But viewing her as the "Mediatrix of all graces" would stab again at the heart of Who we believe God to be, since we view Grace as the Energies of God, and not a created thing. To make the Virgin Mary the very conduit for ALL of God's work in the world, without which God cannot act? ... well, really, even if you see grace as created and/or a commodity, placing her in that position would do that.

At any rate, I'm glad such obstacles have not been added. Though I agree that the ones we already face are impossible to reconcile with Orthodoxy, and the ones you mentioned are indeed already at the very heart. I'm just thankful not to have added to the periphery.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I'm glad to hear "co-redemptrix" is considered controversial.

Since coming to CF, I have found it best to ask Catholics what Catholics believe, and so on. I'm afraid there is a good deal of misrepresentation out there, and a good deal of it specifically directed at Catholicism.

Me too; this crosses the line between adiaphora and heresy IMO.
 
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